Page 1 of 2
#1
i have been listening to Shadows Fall's The Art of Balance album. its a very heavy album, but they really don't use enough. specifically the song "a fire in babylon"

so effectly how can you get the gain down and still sound as heavy as they do?

IIRC on that album they were using JCM800's with t75's and V'30's in an X pattern. i also think they used emg's as well.

any tricks to using less gain and sound heavier without studio magic?

referance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2DIwXuQ6o
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#2
Sounds like quite a lot of compression going on in there. Trouble is that it's hard to tell where it's coming from. The entire mix sounds as compressed as all shit.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#3
That is the only album I like from them. Great songs and riffs.

Sorry I can't help with your question.

JCM800, maxon boost.

Now they use Rivera knucklehad tre. EMG 85 in the bridge.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
Last edited by R45VT at Dec 3, 2012,
#4
Quote by Cathbard
Sounds like quite a lot of compression going on in there. Trouble is that it's hard to tell where it's coming from. The entire mix sounds as compressed as all shit.


i know its the best video i could find. i have been listening the album which of course sounds better, but there definitely is some compression somewhere in the chain.

would you agree that it is pretty 'heavey' and that the gain isn't that high? just for some reassurance.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#7
A good thick bass guitar with some light gain is a great start. Also, a touch responsive amp can have a lot to do with it. My DSL is kept with gain below 6 most of the time, but I can play metal on it just fine. I use lots of mids, a medium treble, and a thick bass. Makes it sound bigger than it is.
#8
IMO its always in the way/style you play your instrument. Slayer in the last ten years seems to me have rolled back the gain on the guitars compared to the 90's, yet they still sound just as aggressive as ever.
Wood affects tone due to the engorgment of the corpus cavernosum.
I cant help it. I masturbate so fast my hands go back in time and type all sorts of crazy shit.
Goth is the theatrical element without being a whiny little emo bitch.
#9
Overdubs and multiple mic positions.

Recorded metal tones that are done right are not overtly gainy. Considerably less gain is dialed in than you would suspect, and overdubs create the thickness of tone.

Live is a different story. You'll typically notice that more gain is dialed in live to create as best a representation as possible of the recorded tone when the magic of overdubbing is not an option. Clarity and definition suffers in almost every instance.
#10
anything other than studio magic besides the bass?
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#11
Quote by trashedlostfdup
anything other than studio magic besides the bass?


A properly voiced amp.
#12
Sounds like a high pass filter on the guitars which you could achieve somewhat with an MXR 10 band. helps give the bass it's own space and free up the mix
Last edited by AxSilentxLine at Dec 3, 2012,
#13
What he needs is a Hybris, doesn't he Craig?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#14
Quote by AxSilentxLine
Sounds like a high pass filter on the guitars which you could achieve somewhat with an MXR 10 band. helps give the bass it's own space and free up the mix

Almost every recording you hear has high pass filter on the guitar, metal or not.
Like you said, it cuts out the bass's frequencies and gives a clearer mix.
#15
Quote by darkwolf291
Almost every recording you hear has high pass filter on the guitar, metal or not.
Like you said, it cuts out the bass's frequencies and gives a clearer mix.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned it
#16
As with most metal bands, or in fact with almost any band at all, it is impossible to replicate their tone with just one guitar. Search the techniques "double tracking", or some cases even "quad tracking".

Compression will help get you there, but as mentioned earlier, a properly voiced amp with the right EQ settings and cabinet/speakers is essential.

100% of this has been mentioned in previous posts, but I'm just emphasizing the fact that you will find it near impossible to replicate this tone by yourself.
#17
Didn't listen to the song but I'm going to go with good bass tone and playing style. A lot is in your playing style, when you start recording you'll notice that tone is verrrrry much in the fingers. I sound like poop through every amp while people like Ola Englund and probably the guys on the video sound good on every amp.
Guitasr:
Cort KX-Custom
ESP LTD M-200FM
Amp:
Engl Powerball
Misc:
Focusrite Scarlet 2i4
#18
You're confusing talent with tone. Eric Clapton sounds good every time but his tones over the years have changed dramatically. You can still tell it's Clapton but Beano sounds different to Wheels of Fire which sounds totally different to Slowhand.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#19
i am not trying to emulate their tone, i am just looking for ideas to get heavy without as much gain in a live situation. even live they didn't have searing gain, i have seen them at least five times.

thanks for the words, i don't have studio magic
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#20
What I've found works quite well is a touch of pitch shifting mixed into the background. Not a fuzz type octaver but a pitch shifter. I use my Quadraverb. It's so low in the mix that it's hard to hear but it thickens up the sound surprisingly well.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#21
Quote by trashedlostfdup
i am not trying to emulate their tone, i am just looking for ideas to get heavy without as much gain in a live situation. even live they didn't have searing gain, i have seen them at least five times.

thanks for the words, i don't have studio magic

Double mic your cab.
Or run two cabs.
#22
Quote by darkwolf291
Double mic your cab.
Or run two cabs.


i guess i will have to use two cabs. its more fun that way.

FYI my laptop got fried last week, right after i got the I/0's straightened out.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#23
Quote by Cathbard
What I've found works quite well is a touch of pitch shifting mixed into the background. Not a fuzz type octaver but a pitch shifter. I use my Quadraverb. It's so low in the mix that it's hard to hear but it thickens up the sound surprisingly well.


That's a cool trick. Think it'll work with two guitars and a bass playing metal?
Gear:

Fender Strat
PRS SE Custom 24
Agile AL-3100

Jet City JCA50H
Randall 2x12 wV30s
#26
Rhythm section, man. The heaviness always lays on the bass and drums combination. If you have a heavy rhythm section, you will sound heavy. Rage Against the Machine is another example of a heavy as hell band, but Tom Morello doesn't use that much gain at all.
Also, listening to early Black Sabbath is like going to school.
"...I cried. Just for a second. Then I thought, 'I must rock.' "
- James Iha



Rock on y'all!

#27
Quote by evmac
That's a cool trick. Think it'll work with two guitars and a bass playing metal?
Why wouldn't it?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#29
Multitracking is evil black magic. Makes guitars sound artificially ****ing huge, almost regardless of amp.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#31
Quote by Cathbard
Why wouldn't it?


I'm just skeptical as to whether you'd be able to hear the lower register live with a bass in the background and two distorted guitars.
Gear:

Fender Strat
PRS SE Custom 24
Agile AL-3100

Jet City JCA50H
Randall 2x12 wV30s
#32
Quote by Cathbard
What I've found works quite well is a touch of pitch shifting mixed into the background. Not a fuzz type octaver but a pitch shifter. I use my Quadraverb. It's so low in the mix that it's hard to hear but it thickens up the sound surprisingly well.


This is what I would do, when you have the same passage on a lower pitch just behind, it works a matress pushing the higher pitch replicated parts to the front giving you a bigger sound.

Do I wrote it correctly?

Mesa Royal Atlantic
Emperor 4x12 Silver Bells
PRS Swamp Ash Limited Custom 24
EQD Acapulco Gold
MXR Carbon Copy
EHX Epitome
EHX Superego
Fuzz Hugger Algal Bloom
Way Huge Fat Sandwich
Last edited by Perverockstar69 at Dec 3, 2012,
#33
Matt B & Jon D. were using Krank Revolutions at that time, not sure about the studio recording though.
I always liked their dry, clear, aggressive high gain tone.
I also know that both guitarists, particularily Matt B. have a very heavy handed picking technique too. They really "dig in" to the strings. When you do this with hot pickups like the EMG's they use and set the amps gain to medium - low levels you get a lot of clarity and aggression without having to use lots of preamp gain.
This is how I play and dial in most of my amps.

This band, and album came out around the same time and has that same dry medium gain aggression. The album is Constitution of Treason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOjKFdBgLWE
MARSHALL JVM 210H
PEAVEY JSX
KRANK 412
MESA 412
FENDER STRATS
DIMARZIO
CELESTION
#34
none of these songs have heavy guitars. the sabbath made me laugh.

heavy bass + double tracking and layering.

the lead guitars in those shadows fall clips aren't any heavier then early classic metal.

so the answer is that it's not the guitars at all.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#36
Quote by ihartfood
in seems to me that in the studio bands don't use nearly as much gain as you would think

except maybe bloodbath
Yeah you're right.

Also, there is an obvious difference between a heavy guitar sound and a brutal guitar sound.
Classic metal up to thrash and metalcore is heavy. Once you go past those genres the guitars gain/distortion enters the brutal realm.
MARSHALL JVM 210H
PEAVEY JSX
KRANK 412
MESA 412
FENDER STRATS
DIMARZIO
CELESTION
#37
although this may come under the heading of studio magic it can be applied to a live situation as well. EQ. having the guitar and bass adjusted so they compliment each oters tone goes a long way in making riffs sound heavier. someone mentioned classic metal and the SF tune reminded me of just that (except the cookie monster vocals which almost always ruins it for me).
#40
Quote by monwobobbo
although this may come under the heading of studio magic it can be applied to a live situation as well. EQ. having the guitar and bass adjusted so they compliment each oters tone goes a long way in making riffs sound heavier. someone mentioned classic metal and the SF tune reminded me of just that (except the cookie monster vocals which almost always ruins it for me).

Agreed! Bass lines are key.
Page 1 of 2