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#42
Ok. Let's start from the beggining. TS asked what are modes? i answered him to try them out easy way, meaning, playing major or minor scales, starting not from the original root note.
If you mention E F# G# A B C# D# it is a E Ionian scale or major scale. Playing the same notes but in a different order, exam. F# G# A B C# D# E, you'd be playing the F# dorian scale. Same notes, different order, different intervals from the root note, that's why they sound different.

If you take the chords you're playing over, it could or could not be modal, it is not always. Chords usually are part of many scales. Depending on which scale are you playing over the chord, you actually can call it a modal sequence.

If you take E F# G# A B C# D#, you can form the chord for each of its notes. That would be EM7, F#m7, G#m7, AM7, B7, C#m7, D#m7(b5). If you play a sequence over those chords you're playing a E Ionian or major sequence, unless the chords are shared by another scale too, and you decide to "sound" the other way, it is possible too.

if you take F# G# A B C# D# E, the chords will be F#m7, G#m7, AM7, B7, C#m7, D#m7(b5), EM7. If you play a sequence with some of that chords you'd be playing an F# dorian sequence, unless you share chords, and you don't want to sound dorian.

If you listen "Evil Ways" by Santana, you can hear him playing over the G dorian scale, in a Gmin-C sequence, that are actually the chords formed over the 2nd and 5th intervals of the F key, that's why he plays the F scale over the sequence, and we call it G Dorian. It is G as a second degree of the F scale.

If you play an F#m7 and you expect it to be F# dorian, you're not there yet, to make it dorian yo have to separate it from a F# phrygian or F# aeolian. The note that WILL make it dorian is the Major 6th of the F# scale, in this case D#, if you play a m7 with a major 6th, you're in F# dorian, and that's about it.

I hope you can teach me out of this, if that's the case like some of you are saying.
Maybe we're saying the same, but expressing in different ways.

If you were meaning by modal variations, taking chords from a parallel mode, to use it in your progression, then we were talking about different things, and my spelling would've been incorrect, maybe cause i'm not english speaking in Argentina, my home. Then maybe you need to recommend me English lessons, but not music theory by the way.

Hope we keep the discussion, its nice to have one actually
#43
jesus christ you're so wrong it hurts
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#44
Quote by gabipe15
Ok. Let's start from the beggining. TS asked what are modes? i answered him to try them out easy way, meaning, playing major or minor scales, starting not from the original root note.
If you mention E F# G# A B C# D# it is a E Ionian scale or major scale. Playing the same notes but in a different order, exam. F# G# A B C# D# E, you'd be playing the F# dorian scale. Same notes, different order, different intervals from the root note, that's why they sound different.


not necessarily. it all depends on the harmonic background. if you play E F# G# A B C# D# E, it's an E major scale (or can also be called the E ionian mode, as you've said). same deal with the F# dorian mode you've posted. however, when actually using them in music, it has absolutely nothing to do with what order the notes are in - it has far more to do with the resolution.

Quote by gabipe15
If you take the chords you're playing over, it could or could not be modal, it is not always. Chords usually are part of many scales. Depending on which scale are you playing over the chord, you actually can call it a modal sequence.


or how about just thinking in keys? that's why they exist.

Quote by gabipe15
If you take E F# G# A B C# D#, you can form the chord for each of its notes. That would be EM7, F#m7, G#m7, AM7, B7, C#m7, D#m7(b5). If you play a sequence over those chords you're playing a E Ionian or major sequence, unless the chords are shared by another scale too, and you decide to "sound" the other way, it is possible too.


tertian harmony is an extremely key-oriented concept. modes were not designed to do this (for example, locrian would resolve on a diminished triad). if you use those chords, you're almost definitely in E major (possibly C# minor, depending on context).

Quote by gabipe15
if you take F# G# A B C# D# E, the chords will be F#m7, G#m7, AM7, B7, C#m7, D#m7(b5), EM7. If you play a sequence with some of that chords you'd be playing an F# dorian sequence, unless you share chords, and you don't want to sound dorian.


i'm not really sure what you're getting at here. sequences aren't involved, so i'm really not clear about what you're trying to express.

Quote by gabipe15
If you listen "Evil Ways" by Santana, you can hear him playing over the G dorian scale, in a Gmin-C sequence, that are actually the chords formed over the 2nd and 5th intervals of the F key, that's why he plays the F scale over the sequence, and we call it G Dorian. It is G as a second degree of the F scale.


if the key is F, then G dorian is simply not involved. if he's playing an F scale, why in god's name would you call it G dorian? you just said it was an F scale. see how this doesn't make sense?

if the key is F, the scale is F major.

Quote by gabipe15
If you play an F#m7 and you expect it to be F# dorian, you're not there yet, to make it dorian yo have to separate it from a F# phrygian or F# aeolian. The note that WILL make it dorian is the Major 6th of the F# scale, in this case D#, if you play a m7 with a major 6th, you're in F# dorian, and that's about it.


not quite. that could just as easily be described as being in a key - F# minor. you're allowed to have accidentals in keys, but not so much in modes (and since some of you have been saying "you can absolutely have accidentals in modes", i'd really like it if you gave examples instead of just asserted a view with no support -- show me why modes can have accidentals like keys, because if that were the case there would be a lot more than two keys), since it destroys the essence of the mode.

Quote by gabipe15
If you were meaning by modal variations, taking chords from a parallel mode, to use it in your progression, then we were talking about different things, and my spelling would've been incorrect, maybe cause i'm not english speaking in Argentina, my home. Then maybe you need to recommend me English lessons, but not music theory by the way.


the concept you're talking about here would involve keys.

i'd recommend you more for music theory lessons with a better teacher, honestly. your english is fine, i've had no trouble understanding you (except for the part where i said "i'm not sure what you're getting at"), but some of the concepts you're talking about are incorrect.
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#46
Quote by AeolianWolf
if the key is F, then G dorian is simply not involved. if he's playing an F scale, why in god's name would you call it G dorian? you just said it was an F scale. see how this doesn't make sense?

if the key is F, the scale is F major.

And in this case it isn't F major because the progression doesn't resolve to F major. The "I" chord here is G minor.

And yeah, you don't play A minor over C major progression, you play C major over C major progression. The scales share the same notes but playing in A minor is different to playing in C major. Everybody should start thinking more about the whole thing, not just what scale guitar plays. Harmony has a lot more to do with the key you are playing in than the scale you are using.

And saying that C ionian is C major scale that starts with C and D dorian is C major that starts with D is just wrong (basically it's right but this kind of wording just confuses people and they think they are playing modally all the time). You can play the notes in whatever order and still you will be playing in C major and not two or three different scales. It's about the chord progression, not about what note you start the solo with. You can just emphasize D over C major chord progression but you can't make it sound like D dorian because of the chords.
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Dec 6, 2012,
#47
Quote by MaggaraMarine
And in this case it isn't F major because the progression doesn't resolve to F major. The "I" chord here is G minor.


irrelevant. if you call it "key of F", then it's the key of F. if it's a i-IV vamp, it's a G dorian vamp, also very easily explainable as being in G minor. F as a tonal center is not related, and neither is any sort of F scale.
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#48
What MaggaraMarine said is exactly the way it is, and clearly spoken i think.
If i get it right it is the same as i tried to explain before, maybe explained a little better.

But i see the point of AeolianWOlf, you started talking about the same as Magga, and then got wrong what magga explained better.

It is the same notes you're playing in a different context, not the order of the notes, actually the notes.

Am is not the same as C major. I get it when you say, if you play C major scale, then it is C major scale, why the hell call it A aeolian?, Because in an Am progression, the resolution chord is Am, and so the scale (actually the same scale as before) is called A Aeolian, it is the name of the scale that changes, not the scale.

It is actually confusing if you don't understand modes, but it is the name given to them. I think it would be more confusing to say that we simply use C major scale in every progression that you can use it, regardless of the context.

Anyways, i think we are both talking about the same thing, actually naming it different.

Correct me wherever you think i'm failing.
#49
Quote by gabipe15
But i see the point of AeolianWOlf, you started talking about the same as Magga, and then got wrong what magga explained better.

It is the same notes you're playing in a different context, not the order of the notes, actually the notes.






you're funny, in case that wasn't clear.

if you think i got something wrong, you don't even come close to seeing my point.

Quote by gabipe15
Am is not the same as C major. I get it when you say, if you play C major scale, then it is C major scale, why the hell call it A aeolian?, Because in an Am progression, the resolution chord is Am, and so the scale (actually the same scale as before) is called A Aeolian, it is the name of the scale that changes, not the scale.


right. let me clarify something for you, in case you were born in 1576 italy and have recently woken from a cryogenic sleep.

we have a system called a key system. there are two keys - major and minor. if the resolution chord is Am, the key is A minor. A aeolian is irrelevant. it just so happens that the A aeolian mode is similar to the A natural minor scale. but there's a reason they're not the same thing (otherwise we would only have one name for them). it warrants a different name because it's an entirely different concept.

unless, of course, you're a guitarist who knows nothing about music other than scales. then, to you, it would be A aeolian.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#50
You keep saying the same, neither deny nor accept something, changed the lyrics.

If you don't like the name it used to be called, put it the way you like it, cause it keeps existing. Why the hell the TS did mention modes if they do not exist anymore? Does he live in 1576? Because according to you there's no way he could've known about them, cause now theres a different concept.

I guess you didn't teach him either, with your bible.
#51
gabipe15, do you understand the difference between a plagal mode and a authentic mode?

Do you understand what rules and characteristics are required to give a mode it's unique character, such as it's melodic patterns and cells?

Do you understand that these cells and patterns are different for each mode?

Do you realize that Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian and Mixolydian came along before Ionian and Aeloian?

Do you know the difference between traditional modes, and modes used in rock and fusion?

Do you understand chord scale theory?
#52
Quote by AeolianWolf
irrelevant. if you call it "key of F", then it's the key of F. if it's a i-IV vamp, it's a G dorian vamp, also very easily explainable as being in G minor. F as a tonal center is not related, and neither is any sort of F scale.

Yes, but the song had that "dorian vamp." So it was wrong to even talk about F major. The notes used belong to F major scale but in this case it's not even F major scale because of the harmony. So yeah, mentioning F major was wrong.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#53
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Yes, but the song had that "dorian vamp." So it was wrong to even talk about F major. The notes used belong to F major scale but in this case it's not even F major scale because of the harmony. So yeah, mentioning F major was wrong.


exactly. having never heard the song personally, i can only go by what i'm told here. which is why i allowed for the possibility of both a G dorian vamp and an F major key.

Quote by gabipe15
You keep saying the same, neither deny nor accept something, changed the lyrics.


and yet you don't listen...where does the fault really lie here? with the person who explains something? or the person who refuses to accept it for absolutely no reason other than his adherence to a flawed understanding?

i'm not the one with my knowledge in question around here, pal.
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#54
I am pleased with the increased presence of Gordon Ramsay around these parts.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#56
i start this thread simply because i wanted to have a better understanding of what modes are, not for people to argue... i should've known better lol...
#58
Quote by johnyere
i start this thread simply because i wanted to have a better understanding of what modes are, not for people to argue... i should've known better lol...


lulz
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#60
Quote by johnyere
Modes keep coming up whenever im on these forums, and i wanted to know what they are and what their purpose is.

based on this thread, i think a comparison would be helpful

if i walk near my house for a while, turds from dogs with lazy owners keep coming up all over the place

i kept thinking to myself "why are they all over the place, and what's their purpose?"

then i realized, well **** it who cares, since they're just turds

apply this to your ug experience
#61
mdc - the other day i asked my guitar teacher this very same question and he explained it to me very clearly.

so to answer your question, yes i now have a very general understanding of what modes are.
#63
Modes will be nothing but random trivia if you cannot listen to a song and identify what the key/tonal center is.

If you cannot identify a key, you cannot improvise over a song without a lot of guesswork involved. Music theory is intended to take the guesswork out. If you have a firm grasp on keys, major and minor scales and accidentals you can achieve all the "sounds" or "flavours" of modes if that's what you really want. If you actually want to write modal compositions you have to be able to distinguish between a song in a key, and a song in a mode. As the vast majority of songs are in keys (and it's arguable that modal compositions no longer exist due to being replaced by keys) it's easier to start with keys.
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#64
This thread has been an interesting read.

It makes me realize how wrong my first guitar teacher was (himself a jazz player) to try and teach me modes at a time when I had little grasp on scales and virtually none as far as intervals go. I remember walking out of that lesson in a daze wondering what the hell just happened.
#65
surely MT is capable of producing one thread that defines modes. end of all discussions.
Quote by AlanHB
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#67
^^& we could call it, "Modes! before you ask..." Yea, that would solve everything.
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#68
Quote by J-Dawg158
^^& we could call it, "Modes! before you ask..." Yea, that would solve everything.


I don't think that sticky's as good as it could be. It references other threads, and those threads are somewhat verbose. I think the continuing "mode plague" attests to the fact that it's not solving the problem it set out to solve.

I'd like to see the common mistakes given numbers, permitting replies such as "you're making Modes Mistake #3", followed by a direct link to a much simpler explanation.
Last edited by Jehannum at Dec 7, 2012,
#69
The problem is that no one here can agree on what modes are and when they should be used and all that crap. Plus, there's no real source of theoretical discussion on modes in the actual world because, outside of guitar forums, no one gives a shit about arguing over modes.
#70
Quote by johnyere
mdc - the other day i asked my guitar teacher this very same question and he explained it to me very clearly.

so to answer your question, yes i now have a very general understanding of what modes are.

Actually, I think you're non the wiser. Really.
#71
Quote by Jehannum
I don't think that sticky's as good as it could be. It references other threads, and those threads are somewhat verbose. I think the continuing "mode plague" attests to the fact that it's not solving the problem it set out to solve.

I'd like to see the common mistakes given numbers, permitting replies such as "you're making Modes Mistake #3", followed by a direct link to a much simpler explanation.



exactly my point.

Quote by J-Dawg158
"Modes! before you ask..."


Obviously people aren't bothering to read the articles linked on that one.
#72
What's wrong with a sticky that says "Modes: You can find a definition and brief history on Wikipedia. Don't be a lazy twat: Go read the article."?
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#73
Quote by Sleepy__Head
What's wrong with a sticky that says "Modes: You can find a definition and brief history on Wikipedia. Don't be a lazy twat: Go read the article."?

Cuz noobs don't have the basic foundation of theory to understand the wiki articles in the first place.

Instead, they come here seeking a quick answer and shortcut.

Like you said, they're lazy twats.

I really hope all the noobs come in here and read this post, now. Knock ten bells of shit outta them I hope.
#74
Maybe we should come up with a comprehensive but concise thing ourselves explaining why modes just aren't relevant.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#75
Quote by Pierre-Claude
Modes are BASED of of the mafor scale. They are used to evoke diferent feelings than your typical minor (sad) major (happy) scales

This is kinda what my guitar teacher tells me. I figure he just means that the Major scale is a great (yet boring an predictable sounding) place to start, but he's pretty adament amout it
#76
Quote by bdof
This is kinda what my guitar teacher tells me. I figure he just means that the Major scale is a great (yet boring an predictable sounding) place to start, but he's pretty adament amout it


a lot of guitarists are adamant about this view.

i mean, it's pretty easy to be adamant about an incorrect view when you've never bothered to learn anything about music history or, well, think logically.
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#77
Quote by bdof
This is kinda what my guitar teacher tells me. I figure he just means that the Major scale is a great (yet boring an predictable sounding) place to start, but he's pretty adament amout it

Your teacher doesn't know what they're talking about. I suggest a new one
#78
I agree that the modes sticky itself is flawed. If anyone would like to draft something that we can all agree upon I can make it a sticky.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#79
Quote by AlanHB
I agree that the modes sticky itself is flawed. If anyone would like to draft something that we can all agree upon I can make it a sticky.

I'd make the opening statement in the thread "you're actually trying to learn CST, not modes"
#80
Quote by z4twenny
I'd make the opening statement in the thread "you're actually trying to learn CST, not modes"


One of my good friends who's a pianist thinks that CST is modes, it gets me so ****ing angry.