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#41
Quote by Morphogenesis26
Fifteen minutes in and I'm done. I ain't got time for an hour of this.

It's not bad, but it's so many different things all at once that I couldn't listen to this in one setting even if I wanted to.
Yeah, just goes to show how bands like that and also BTBAM and Opeth etc. also don't really hold up for extended listens unless the listener already has proscribed great personal value to the band as it is, and can't really be disappointed by them.
#42
I don't know if I'd add Opeth into that group. They always seemed a cut above the rest to me, but I never gave them a true listen.
#44
Yeah, Danza do fucking suck, at least in regards to their new album (which that song is from) and the one before that, which are the only two I'm familiar with. Their whole gimmick is relying around the principle that tuning really low and sucking all the bass out of their guitar tone creates heaviness to impress certain kinds of people who view that to be the essence of brutality, where really, there is nothing very emotionally "heavy" about guitar work which is more or less indistinguishable from percussion. It doesn't say anything. The wanky lead stuff doesn't really add anything either, just serves to give the impression that they have substance even though the phrases which they use to construct songs are barely even related most of the time.

That song is actually from the album before their third one, I guess, which is when they replaced their guitarist who wrote most of the songs, with another guy who's somewhat known in contemporary "-core" circles (I say that because fans of these bands usually cross-pollinate between genres) as some sort of 8 string guitar deity... and it barely sounds any different! Except played on 7 strings instead of 8, which just goes to that show even after that they changed principle songwriter, they didn't seek to write more ambitious music. From what I've heard they've recently decided to call it quits, which can only be for the best, I think.
#45
Suicide Silence - The Cleansing
Born of Osiris - The New Reign


Those are the only two deathcore albums so far that I've listened to the full way through and enjoyed a lot.
#46
Quote by Steve08
Yeah, just goes to show how bands like that and also BTBAM and Opeth etc. also don't really hold up for extended listens unless the listener already has proscribed great personal value to the band as it is, and can't really be disappointed by them.

The rest of this statement is fine, but BTBAM and Opeth are generally a cut above the average Deathcore band.
#49
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
The rest of this statement is fine, but BTBAM and Opeth are generally a cut above the average Deathcore band.
This is true. There's probably just, simply, more effort put in by BTBAM and Opeth, than by, say... Chelsea Grin. I was comparing those two bands to Periphery, though.
#51
Quote by StreetLight3989
httpbe/dXKZDflFzu4

Misery Signals. Super melodic with a dope vocalist.


holy shittttttttttt noooooooooooooo
#52
Lulz @ Steve ranting about what defines "progressive" in the metalcore scene while actively spouting August Burns Red like that guy who proves how brutal he is by namechecking Brodequin.
#53
Quote by AnnihiSlateR
yeah, I hate it when they post trick questions as threads.

Thread should have been closed after this.

Since it's still open though, I'm going to suggest you listen to Crowbar.

They're not deathcore, but they don't suck, and they will definitely satisfy the metal (not death) and the hardcore sides of you.
#54
Quote by technicolour
holy shittttttttttt noooooooooooooo


This. Misery Signals are absolutely terrible...their sound is everything I hate about metalcore
Music must be honest to be timeless.
#55
Quote by Magero
Lulz @ Steve ranting about what defines "progressive" in the metalcore scene while actively spouting August Burns Red like that guy who proves how brutal he is by namechecking Brodequin.
I don't follow the logic in this post whatsoever. In my first real post in this thread, I stated that most djent bands, at a musical level, are not especially different from metalcore bands. I then used the band August Burns Red as an example of this similarity because, from what I understand and have been told by several people, they invented the "static chugging rhythm + lead melody" used by squillions of bands in modernity, including many of the more generic djent bands, and even some of the more notable ones such as Periphery and TesseracT.

Then, I went onto dispel the fallacious notion that "progressive metal" is its own subgenre (with fair and explained criticisms, even) and stated what defines progression in any form of music, not just metalcore. Your statement does not address either of these topics, and I'm not even sure where the Brodequin thing is coming from (though that band's ok).



Also,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW9X0aYpiRo

This album features extensive use of concepts taken directly from classical music, owing to Luc Lemay's conservatory studies from 1996 to 2000 (I believe), predominantly in the usage of centralized motifs to link individual songs, and on a broader scale, the hybridization of motifs to generate greater overall themes (much as the way the individual actions/words/thoughts of a character in a book serves to reinforce the themes present in said book), so as to create a sense of cohesion and unity through the entirety of the album, linking deranged, bizarre songs and turn them from something which would otherwise be a random collection of unlistenable noise into some of the most horrifyingly logical, intelligent metal music ever written, all the while using a tonal palette that is so dissonant and challenging that it would presumably seem to be pure noise to one not already accustomed to metal music, and indeed, bears no aesthetic relation to any other metal band, and despite this harshness, consistently succeed at creating moments of plaintive, nervous grace and breathless wonder amongst the desolation. More classical technique is shown in the use of voice leading (two or more separate melodic lines being played simultaneously, or bridging phrases together) at the level of individual riffs. Truly an awe-inspiring work, if one opens their ears to the pure beauty of open potential waiting to explode.
Last edited by Steve08 at Dec 16, 2012,
#56
Sounds like pretty standard death metal to me.

I enjoy how you alternate between telling people how using notes outside of scalar context makes a band sloppy, yet as soon as the chromatic bullshit that is Gorguts comes up, suddenly it doesn't matter about scales and stuff because it's so much more "progressive than that." They can go outside of the scale "because they can do it RIGHT".

By the way, random tempo changes are never smooth. Ever. You can't just go from 180 to 230 without so much as a drum fill, and expect no one to go "Hey, that kinda killed the mood somewhat!". No gradual increase/decrease, they just get bored of one riff so they play it faster randomly.

Seriously, I'm listening to this in HD, and all I hear is more of the same "we wrote riffs and now the internet thinks we're genius'" bullshit that I always hear whenever people tell me to check out Gorguts. Random dissonant chords, atonal melodies that hardly work, the same "stop on a dime" tempo and time signature changes that I abhor in classic death metal, and generally, every song sounds the exact same when the production makes everything sound like buzzsaws being played under a layer of mud.

You say "classical composition techniques", I say "those dudes clearly enjoy off-putting melodies and completely schizophrenic drumming". You do NOT need a drum fill at the end of every bar, guys. You DO need them when you decide to suddenly jump up 30 BPM for no reason. I could spend all day picking apart everything about this that annoys the shit out of me, but I'm just going to go listen to Death Grips and laugh quietly about Obscura being held up as an example of "intelligent death metal".
#58
You two sound like an angry married couple.

I always found 'Obscura' extremely obnoxious compared to their other albums. I don't know how to explain it, it's just...irritating.

Death Grips is also irritating as hell, so you're both bad at intelligent music.

Now hug.
#59
Quote by Magero
Sounds like pretty standard death metal to me.
Quote by Magero
I enjoy how you alternate between telling people how using notes outside of scalar context makes a band sloppy, yet as soon as the chromatic bullshit that is Gorguts comes up, suddenly it doesn't matter about scales and stuff because it's so much more "progressive than that." They can go outside of the scale "because they can do it RIGHT".
I've never once said that writing outside of a key is bad by any standard. Like, what the hell? I know you yourself proclaim not to know shit about music theory, but really, know what is said. Most of my favorite bands use totally chromatic writing palettes and it works fine because despite it being written outside of a key, you can use certain patterns which are indicative of a certain scalar/tonal color but never actually be within that guy, and in that way, many different ranges of emotions can be expressed by using all 12 tones, which conducts itself very well to writing death metal. It really doesn't work for orchestrating more than two voices at once (such as in classical music), but death metal usually only has two independent guitars as it is, so it hardly matters.

Gorguts uses a chromatic writing palette, and within that palette, use specific motifs (small two, to eight melodies) in different places throughout the entirety of those songs to unify each part, exactly like in classical music. Being musically illiterate, I don't really expect you to know what I mean by that, but really, I have spent hours analyzing this music, and it is all there.
Quote by Magero
By the way, random tempo changes are never smooth. Ever.
You are alluding to the objective reality of which I am an advocate of by stating "never", which would suggest that you base your opinion on a quantifiable, objective standard, and yet, to hear you speak on the matter, all art is subjective and arbitrary and random and hey whatever you want is cool, man. This is a rather confusing implication you've gien.
Quote by Magero
You can't just go from 180 to 230 without so much as a drum fill, and expect no one to go "Hey, that kinda killed the mood somewhat!". No gradual increase/decrease, they just get bored of one riff so they play it faster randomly.
There is nothing like that on the entirety on the album, so I don't know what you're hearing, and to that end, it actually never even goes to 230, most of the parts with blast beats, etc. are around 200. However, tempo changes ultimately only affect pace, and all the phrases create smooth, horizontal continuity between measures.

Like Mozart.

Huh!

Oh, and that's not my opinion, it's a fact and is easily seen just by viewing the tab of the song Obscura on this website (the writing style of which is reflected in every other song on the album), only, wait, you yourself proclaim to not know anything about this topic, and yet you're arguing about it with me as if you do, which is quite perplexing.
Quote by Magero
Seriously, I'm listening to this in HD, and all I hear is more of the same "we wrote riffs and now the internet thinks we're genius'" bullshit that I always hear whenever people tell me to check out Gorguts. Random dissonant chords, atonal melodies that hardly work, the same "stop on a dime" tempo and time signature changes that I abhor in classic death metal, and generally, every song sounds the exact same when the production makes everything sound like buzzsaws being played under a layer of mud.
This is, by any standard, an uninformed statement. Most of the songs on the album only even have one or two tempos as it is.

Look, I'm sorry this band does not fit into your preconceived notions as to what "works" or "isn't random", but I actually could write an essay on why everything in that one passage is so wrong and you still wouldn't even accept it, as has been shown when Andy shamed you and violated your dignity with his Morbid Angel analysis and you literally ignored it, as well as the most particularly decimating of my posts in the BTBAM shitstorm a few weeks ago.
Quote by Magero
You say "classical composition techniques", I say "those dudes clearly enjoy off-putting melodies and completely schizophrenic drumming".
Because you yourself don't even know what the fucking shit I am even talking about with that statement because YOU DON'T KNOW MUSIC THEORY! Don't fuck with me now, man, I am Ahab, I have traveled through time to fight you.

The fact that you're arguing in light of this (as I have mentioned before) is quite befuddling, seeing as music theory is literally objective. Analyzing the theoretical aspects of a song will yield what is truly is, not what it seems-- aesthetics (vocals, production, tempo, etc) are relevant to the presentation of music, but not its actual writing.
Quote by Magero
You do NOT need a drum fill at the end of every bar, guys.
Most of the fills are only in the blast parts, and even then, they're fairly extended, usually with the fill only being at the very end of the phrase, which makes that a fallacious statement on yoour part.
Quote by Magero
You DO need them when you decide to suddenly jump up 30 BPM for no reason.
Point out one of these "random tempo changes", to me, please.
Quote by Magero
I could spend all day picking apart everything about this that annoys the shit out of me, but I'm just going to go listen to Death Grips and laugh quietly about Obscura being held up as an example of "intelligent death metal".
If you were made to write an actual musical analysis, you wouldn't have a fucking clue on where to start, or if it were, it'd only address completely subjective aesthetic points that don't even matter because you can't actually prove anything about them, just state that you dislike them and expect us to believe it, which won't happen, because I, and also users like progbass, don't listen to music subjectively. I listen to what is there, view transcriptions of the music, and if I am particularly vexed by a certain section and how it relates to other sections, transcribe it and see for myself. You yourself proclaim to slag off music based solely on aesthetics (such as Emperor), which just serves to prove my point that your opinions are completely based on conjecture instead of any actual objective standard, which I have clearly demonstrated to exist by talking about music theory and not inane subjective interpretations of it, like, really, you seem to have this idea that if something is the same tempo throughout and yet the melodic passages therein are completely different from a melodic and rhythmic perspective with no common motifs held between them, which is absurd, it's the same as me arguing that if I have a Volvo and BMW, which are both orange, and yet one's an SUV and the other is a coupe, they're related for some reason, because they're the same color (tempo) on the surface, even though internally they are completely different, which is incorrect. Please stop.
Last edited by Steve08 at Dec 17, 2012,
#60
Looooooooollllllllll

Ok, A: You spent about 3 days telling people in the djent thread that BTBAM were failures at prog because "ZOMG THAT ONE RIFF HAS NOTES THAT HAVEN'T BEEN IN THE SONG BEFORE". You made it quite clear that you were tearing them apart because their use of accidental notes was offensive to your definition of what "is" music. You even stressed how much each riff pissed you off because it was "just notes that had nothing to do with previous sections", despite any 3 year old with basic reading skills being able to see that all of the notes were from the same key, let alone the same "related intervallic region".

Also, holy fucking lol at you bringing up a thread from 2011 as "proof that I ignore knowlege". Andy and I have had far more discussions about this shit than you could ever imagine, so it's cute that you think that you're THE ONE who can finally stop that dastardly Magero with his whacky ideas.

For the 10,000th time I'm going to explain to you why none of this sways me, nor affects how I listen to music. Because I am not an insufferable cunt. I do not feel the need to flaunt my pseudo-intellectual penis at everyone who moves simply because I think death metal has more brains than deathcore. You have marched into at least 5 threads in the last few months, slammed your dick around like you're the Hulk at a speed dating service, and then (as you're doing so beautifully now), you start crying about how your musical knowledge is SO much more advanced, so no one can even argue.

I tell you what, when you learn how to express any of those concepts as actual pieces of evidence, not "I say it's there, therefore it's there" (oh right, that whole 'burden of proof' line you kept spouting, try that for a change), or maybe when you acknowledge that none of your musical theory makes a difference to how someone actually enjoys music... sure, maybe we'll talk. But dude, really.

Get more buttmad about shit that doesn't matter.
OH NO, MAGERO THINKS DEATH METAL IS CRAP, I KNOW HE'S FULL OF SHIT, STEVE TO THE RESCUE
#62
Only has one eye.

2/10 would not bang.

Also while I can't really judge if Steve is write about anything due to my rather lack luster knowledge of theory... however I know that every time one his wall of texts appears I want to stab him... I think it's the way it's written. So damn pretentious, we all have access to a thesaurus too.

Also music is an art, not a science. You can analyse it all you want Steve and tell use exactly why it does what it does, but doesn't mean there is RIGHT in music there is only what sounds GOOD and sounds BAD to an individual. No universal truths; if Mag says it sounds bad... well then it sounds bad to him. You can disagree and give reasons but you can't force him to change his mind. The almost scientific method you use has no bearing in an art form except in your own opinions.

Especially when you claim objectivity and then go an praise death metal as God/Satan/Cthulhu's own music. You have a pretty damn obvious bias. If you want to be as scientific as you claim then do this scientifically, hell a theory, some results and a conclusion wouldn't go amiss.

Edit: I tried to give you the benefit and the doubt and look at the guitar pro tab, it's a pain to listen to. Whilst I have no issue with the actual song Obscura (unlike Mag I don't hate all Death Metal but different strokes and all that) but the guitar tab is painful to listen to any of.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
Last edited by ChemicalFire at Dec 17, 2012,
#63
Quote by helltothee
Carnifex are somewhat decent. Annotations of an Autopsy and Job for a Cowboy aren't bad either. Context: I much prefer death metal to deathcore


Shame they are on hiatus (carnifex that is...)
"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” Shakespeare - Macbeth
#65
Respect your opinions and all Jack, but saying Obscura sounds like standard death metal can only mean you've only listened to about two death metal bands or something.. I cannot fathom how you can think this, the music is about as unconventional as you can get..
#66
Quote by destroy_techno
Respect your opinions and all Jack, but saying Obscura sounds like standard death metal can only mean you've only listened to about two death metal bands or something.. I cannot fathom how you can think this, the music is about as unconventional as you can get..


Yeah...I don't see how that sounded like an average Death Metal band...Maybe on 'Considered Dead' they did, but certainly not on Obscura.
#67
Eh, I'm a bit skeptical on the legitimacy of Steve's musical analysis cause he's a drummer. I kid, I kid. Good on you if you've spent time analyzing something so foreign and complex. Obscura is a power set of music, but I've always felt that Lemay refined his songwriting a lot on From Wisdom To Hate. He didn't ditch the language he developed on Obscura, and to me it sounds like a more fluid and refined take on that sound. But anyways, Steve, don't act like a couple years at a conservatory makes Lemay a Mozart. I've no idea what your background is in music studies, but I dare say that without education your musical analysis might just be cherry picking to serve to your personal views.
#68
Quote by Magero
Sounds like pretty standard death metal to me.

.


7/10



I know you wouldn't say Portal sounds like standard death metal. Yeah Portal is more zany than any Gorguts album, but Obscura is far from standard. They're earlier albums are a good example of more standard stuff.
#70
This thread is still here? O.o
Quote by Stranglehold
That's it, you're all banned.

Quote by stevebomb
If I wanted to listen to something slow, I'd play some hippie music.
#71
Quote by Magero


lol so the summary of that article is: "Deathcore is a genre played by kids that ripped off three different established musical styles, watered it down and made it interesting by sprinkling in breakdowns [as in, attempted to introduce crude dynamics]"

That sounds about right, and it's exactly why it doesn't sound any good

“Who are you then?.."
"- I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good.”
KULTURKAMPF
lastFM
#72
Quote by Sanitarium91
But anyways, Steve, don't act like a couple years at a conservatory makes Lemay a Mozart. I've no idea what your background is in music studies, but I dare say that without education your musical analysis might just be cherry picking to serve to your personal views.


This is why Steve is my favorite poster here: the stuff he posts is so pretentious it's legitimately entertaining. It's like watching a guy in a Versace suit trying to analyze death metal. "I DO DECLARE MY GOOD COMRADE THAT YOUR PORCINE OPINION IS NOTHING BUT DRIVEL AND BLATHER!" This is an internet forum, not a dictionary war.
Music must be honest to be timeless.
#75
hey guys let's all be dumb shits and worship btbam
lstfm

I'm a Nazi, baby
I'm a Nazi, yes I am
I'm a Nazi schatzi, you know I'll fight for the Fatherland
#76
"the same raw, amateurish charm that made 80s hardcore like DRI and MDC great is the same reason why deathcore bands are awesome"

"they are a lot more interesting than the same old generic bullshit the br00tal death metal scene has churned out for years."

"Moreover, hardcore as a whole is just kids who try to play whatever kind of metal was cool 10 years earlier, so if you hate on deathcore you’re hating on the last three decades of hardcore!"

" DEATHCORE 2.0 is a real mixed bag. On the one hand you have excellent bands like Impending Doom, Suiside Silence and Job For A Cowboy, who are essentially the new face of semi-underground death metal"

Last edited by technicolour at Dec 17, 2012,
#77
It's Sargent D.

Never take him too seriously.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#78
Lulz, especially when he's being 100% accurate. I don't expect anyone who hasn't spent the last 6 years in the deathcore scene to understand, but that article basically sums up why I don't give a shit about the ANUS philosophy of "classically influenced death metal". Because none of it affects how dull and tedious the music is, and none of it affects how little energy that I hear personally, as opposed to the amount of fun I have with modern death metal and deathcore.

Also, how the hell can you guys NOT hear that Obscura sounds pretty standard? Blast beat, blast beat, double kick beat with pointless drum fills, play some half minor/half chromatic riff at 190bpm while a dude goes "RAWRRR". The fact that they throw in random atonal melodies, in a death metal band, is about as "avant garde" as putting on a hat.

But you know what? Who gives a shit. Does it really bother you so much that the faggy corekid can't appreciate Gorguts? Does it shatter your worldview so much that you can't walk away without crying? It's almost like all the theory in the world still has no effect on aesthetic impressions... What an odd world we live in.
Last edited by Magero at Dec 17, 2012,
#79
I dunno if I can back the idea that Hardcore is just people playing metal badly...
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!