#1
Hey GGA,
I have a question about my amp (Bugera V22). On the dirty channel, it has a gain knob and a volume knob. It also has a Master volume knob. I know the Gain knob is preamp tube volume and the Volume knob is power tube volume. What does the Master knob change then?
Call me walrus! Or latte!

Gear:
Fernandes Retrorocket Deluxe DG
G&L Tribute ASAT Deluxe Carved Top
Fender Lonestar Deluxe Reissue (MIM, Texas Specials and Pearly Gates HB)
ZOOM G5
Danelectro Daddy-O overdrive
#2
gain controls the amount of distortion is provided, volume controls preamp volume, master controls power amp volume
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#3
The Gain is the knob for distortion and the volume controls well, the volume for that channel. and the master controls the overall volume of the amp
#4
The Master Volume is an overall volume that is applied to all channels. It's last in the chain, right in front of the power amp. It controls how much signal from the preamp it lets through to the power amp.
The Channel Volume is just before that, it limits how much gets to the master volume. It's just to balance out the levels between channels.
The Gain controls are right near the start of the preamp. They control how much signal goes into the preamp.

That clear it up?
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Cathbard Amplification
My band
#5
Think of it like this: Gain>Preamp>Channel Volume>Master Volume>Power Amp

Now, my gain might be off, but that's what I understand of it. I'll happily be corrected so I'm not providing wrong information, though
Last edited by Blktiger0 at Dec 10, 2012,
#6
OK now I'm confused. Let me start by saying I know almost nothing about amp schematics, but I am eager to learn. Does this mean I can effectively take out the Volume knob from the circuit by keeping it on max and just controlling volume with Master? And does the Gain knob add distortion from a separate source, or is it just preamp volume and the higher you turn the knob the higher the preamp tubes distort?
Call me walrus! Or latte!

Gear:
Fernandes Retrorocket Deluxe DG
G&L Tribute ASAT Deluxe Carved Top
Fender Lonestar Deluxe Reissue (MIM, Texas Specials and Pearly Gates HB)
ZOOM G5
Danelectro Daddy-O overdrive
#7
think gain as 'distortion' think volume as in 'how loud for that channel' think master volume 'global' volume.

for example my mesa has gain contorls for each channel and a volume for each channel, and a global master volume which controls the volume of all of the channels in an amp.

tried to make it simpler hopefully i was able to assist.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



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#8
It is a pretty common practice to dime the volume knobs and use the gain as your volume control which effectively turns your amp into a non master volume amp.
Distortion arises when you try to amplify the signal too much for the devices to handle (you over drive them). So turning up the gain knob allows more signal into the preamp which, with the volumes dimed, will cause both preamp and power amp to distort.
If you leave the gain up and turn down the volume you are still overdriving the preamp but you have reduced the signal going into the power amp so it won't distort as much.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Dec 10, 2012,
#9
Where is the distortion from the gain coming from? The preamp tubes, right? Then does the volume control how much signal after the preamp tubes goes into the power amp tubes? Does the master volume control the volume for the power amp tubes (i.e. if I crank this up, I get power tube distortion, right?) Please don't simplify it. Use the real terms and "proper" language, but explain what you say means to me. I would love to learn this stuff.
Quote by Cathbard
It is a pretty common practice to dime the volume knobs and use the gain as your volume control

what happens if I dime the channel volume but still use the Master volume?
Call me walrus! Or latte!

Gear:
Fernandes Retrorocket Deluxe DG
G&L Tribute ASAT Deluxe Carved Top
Fender Lonestar Deluxe Reissue (MIM, Texas Specials and Pearly Gates HB)
ZOOM G5
Danelectro Daddy-O overdrive
Last edited by wahalrus at Dec 10, 2012,
#10
Quote by wahalrus
Where is the distortion from the gain coming from? The preamp tubes, right? Then does the volume control how much signal after the preamp tubes goes into the power amp tubes? Does the master volume control the volume for the power amp tubes (i.e. if I crank this up, I get power tube distortion, right?) Please don't simplify it. Use the real terms and "proper" language, but explain what you say means to me. I would love to learn this stuff.


nobody is going to type it all out. google it. i did and here was one of the first ones to pop up:

http://amp-tone.com/how-do-tube-amps-work/how-do-tube-amps-work/

i am sure there are dozens of sites with the information you are looking for.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#11
OK. After some Googling, I now understand that Gain and Volume control the preamp section, while Master controls the power amp. However, what I was not able to find was the difference between Gain and Volume. Is Gain the level of the signal going into the Preamp tubes and Volume the level of the signal coming out of the preamp tubes?
Call me walrus! Or latte!

Gear:
Fernandes Retrorocket Deluxe DG
G&L Tribute ASAT Deluxe Carved Top
Fender Lonestar Deluxe Reissue (MIM, Texas Specials and Pearly Gates HB)
ZOOM G5
Danelectro Daddy-O overdrive
#12
Quote by wahalrus
Where is the distortion from the gain coming from? The preamp tubes, right? Then does the volume control how much signal after the preamp tubes goes into the power amp tubes? Does the master volume control the volume for the power amp tubes (i.e. if I crank this up, I get power tube distortion, right?) Please don't simplify it. Use the real terms and "proper" language, but explain what you say means to me. I would love to learn this stuff.

what happens if I dime the channel volume but still use the Master volume?

You can think about them as the same thing. It's just that the channel volumes only affect one channel. But they are both doing exactly the same thing as far as the power amp is concerned - reducing how much signal is being presented to it from the preamp. To turn it into a non master volume amp you'd have to dime both channel and master volumes.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#13
Okay, the channel volumes are there to help you keep the volume balanced between your clean channel and drive channel. It's so that one isn't really quiet and the other really loud. You can balance them to taste. The master volume controls how much signal gets to your power tubes. You can dime the channel volumes, but that'll likely make the Master Volume VERY touchy. The gain is kinda like a volume between your guitar and Preamp. (again, correct me if I'm wrong on that one)

Non Master Volume amps just had one Volume control and no gain. It would distort all of the tubes at once, but it would have to be LOUD.

Adding a master volume meant that you could get that distortion at lower volumes. You can distort the preamp tubes and keep the power amp running low, so that it would be at a more reasonable volume. It also allowed to get much higher gain in general. A good example is that some amps label the gain "Pre Gain" and the Master Volume "Post Gain" with Pre being Preamp and Post being Power amp.

When you hear AC/DC, that's a tone associated with non-MV amps. Gary Moore is Cath's favorite example. When you hear Metallica, that's a MV amp with more preamp distortion.

Does that help?

Sound differences would be that Power Tube distortion is much more "saggy" and the biggest difference is it's more loose, epsecially in the bass end. It's much sweeter and more smooth. When the power tubes are cranking, it's also VERY touch responsive and more responsive to your guitar's volume knob.

Preamp distortion is more tight and compressed. Still touch responsive and responsive to guitar volume, but less so than Power Tubes.

Really, IMO, the best sound is a mix of the two. Not in equal parts, but you want at least some Power Tube crunch in your tone to give it more life and warmth. That's one (of many) reasons amps usually sound better cranked.
#14
Quote by trashedlostfdup
nobody is going to type it all out. google it. i did and here was one of the first ones to pop up:

http://amp-tone.com/how-do-tube-amps-work/how-do-tube-amps-work/

i am sure there are dozens of sites with the information you are looking for.


Wrong. I did

Not because I saw this, or I wouldn't have bothered. I like to ramble, though
#15
Quote by Blktiger0
Wrong. I did

Not because I saw this, or I wouldn't have bothered. I like to ramble, though


you area good man

i however think that people should be able to use simple internet searches.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#16
OK so my final understanding is that Gain comes first and is the signal going into the preamp tube. Volume comes second, and it controls how much of the signal that comes out of the 2 preamp tubes in the gain channel gets passed on to the Master. Clean channel volume knob also controls how much signal that comes out of its preamp tube goes to the Master. The Master combines these 2 signals and controls how much of the overall signal goes to the power tubes. Correct?
Call me walrus! Or latte!

Gear:
Fernandes Retrorocket Deluxe DG
G&L Tribute ASAT Deluxe Carved Top
Fender Lonestar Deluxe Reissue (MIM, Texas Specials and Pearly Gates HB)
ZOOM G5
Danelectro Daddy-O overdrive
#17
Correct. Which actual tubes do what is another conversation for another day but you've got the concept pretty much right now. Certainly good enough as a working knowledge from a user's perspective.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#18
technically the gain is going to be after the first tube stage.

it always controls how much signal goes into the rest of the amp.

volume on the guitar controls the signal going into the amp.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#19
Don't confuse him. Min. It usually goes after the first triode so in fact it is right in the middle of the first tube. If we go into that much detail we'll lose him. Keep to simple block diagram type stuff and he'll be ok. Go down to component level and he'll go away understanding less than he started.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#20
I think that was more of a correction on my part, maybe? That's something I didn't know, but can certainly comprehend, so I appreciate the knowledge

trashedlostfdup: I agree that people should be able to Google stuff, but for me, sometimes it's easier to hear it explained by someone where I can ask questions, etc. It's more enjoyable to learn from someone you can interact with than from reading a bunch of (probably very dry) material, so I can sympathize.

Plus, it gave me a chance to make sure I knew what in the hell I was talking about
#21
Quote by Blktiger0
I think that was more of a correction on my part, maybe? That's something I didn't know, but can certainly comprehend, so I appreciate the knowledge

trashedlostfdup: I agree that people should be able to Google stuff, but for me, sometimes it's easier to hear it explained by someone where I can ask questions, etc. It's more enjoyable to learn from someone you can interact with than from reading a bunch of (probably very dry) material, so I can sympathize.

Plus, it gave me a chance to make sure I knew what in the hell I was talking about


i wasn't saying "search or GTFO" more of a search and ask questions you can't readily understand after doing some research.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/