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#41
Quote by Blompcube
this.

i must admit i do want a CV '50s tele. Because i just like the CV '50s tele spec better than anything fender makes that isn't an AVRI, honestly. but i think the hype about them supposedly being better than MIMs is actually stopping me from buying one - let me explain:

I have plenty of MIMs to compare the CVs to. If the CVs are as good as people say they are, why is it that every time i go and try one i end up thinking the one i get to play must be one of the crap ones? Even if i end up kinda liking it, i think "well, these are supposed to be better than MIMs, and this one just isn't, so i'll pass, and wait until i find a better one". But a better one just never comes along.

Have i just been exceedingly unlucky and found nothing but crap compared to what all the guys talking about how awesome the CVs are have found? or have those guys just dropped lucky on an occasional good one?

or, taking luck out of the equation, are these guitars just overrated?


+1

I just don't get the hype about CVs either, never played one that I liked.

I once watched a blind test of a CV and a MIA Tele Standard. The guy who posted it was raving about how you could not hear a difference. Well I could tell the difference in less than 30 seconds. The CV pups sounded thin and weak, but there were still a bunch of cv owners swearing that the CV sounded just as good or better. A beautiful sound only in the ear of the beholder.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 25, 2012,
#42
I think CVs are pretty awesome for what they cost. A sub $300 guitar usually isn't that good. An and MIM strat that costs $450 comes with far worse pickups(ceramic? Really Fender?). But buying a used MIm for $300 or less and putting in better pickups is a better route than getting a CV, imo.
#43
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
For example: an Ibanez RG321 looks like it has much the same spec sheet as my RG1527 aside from the really obvious things like pickups and tremolo... but it wouldn't feel the same. At all.

Kyto's RG321 gives this a big +1
#44
Quote by Blompcube
this.

i must admit i do want a CV '50s tele. Because i just like the CV '50s tele spec better than anything fender makes that isn't an AVRI, honestly. but i think the hype about them supposedly being better than MIMs is actually stopping me from buying one - let me explain:

I have plenty of MIMs to compare the CVs to. If the CVs are as good as people say they are, why is it that every time i go and try one i end up thinking the one i get to play must be one of the crap ones? Even if i end up kinda liking it, i think "well, these are supposed to be better than MIMs, and this one just isn't, so i'll pass, and wait until i find a better one". But a better one just never comes along.

Have i just been exceedingly unlucky and found nothing but crap compared to what all the guys talking about how awesome the CVs are have found? or have those guys just dropped lucky on an occasional good one?

or, taking luck out of the equation, are these guitars just overrated?

Maybe bad set ups, but most likely your expectations are too high.

I like Squiers. I think they're a damn good bang for your buck. If I had the choice between a CV Squier or a nice Fender, I have no idea which I would choose.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#45
Quote by JustRooster
I would take an MIM over a CV every day all day. You guys are nuts.


I can live with being nuts, I don't play the logo.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#46
Quote by Arby911
I can live with being nuts, I don't play the logo.


If loving Squiers is wrong, I don't want to be right.
#47
Quote by peskypesky
If loving Squiers is wrong, I don't want to be right.


I neither love nor hate them, just know that they are often far better than they are given credit for.

I'd love to strip the headstock on a half dozen CV's and MIM's and do a blind test, I'd say the results would be interesting...

There's a lot of opinionated bullshit masquerading as fact in the posts above.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#48
Quote by Arby911
I can live with being nuts, I don't play the logo.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that he's probably not talking about the logo.
#49
Quote by W4RP1G
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that he's probably not talking about the logo.


Headstock Blindness is a more common ailment than you might think.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#50
Quote by Arby911
Headstock Blindness is a more common ailment than you might think.

True, but then so is rationalizing a purchase, hating on what you can't afford, and judging all guitars based on a few exceptions.

I'm not saying you're doing that, but we are basically forced to give the benefit of the doubt here, unless we require that everyone with a particular opinion on a brand or guitar line list their qualifications to judge said guitars, and then those qualifications would have to be weighed against some sort of standard.

Basically, you can't just assume that he's basing his opinion off the logo. You need some sort of justification to assume such a thing.
#51
Agree with W4RP1G

CV Squiers are good, FOR THE ASKING PRICE. But, to say they best MIM, or Am Standards is plain silly.

They look and feel like toys. Their only saving grace, in some cases, is the pickups.
#52
Quote by MegadethFan18
Oh that's what you're getting at. Yeah materials and good construction go hand in hand. Though If I bought a guitar that had a disabling fault I would just return it. Certain things are lost on me, I can't hear a guitar and know "That is an X piece body" so I don't need a one piece body (and I doubt I ever will) but it is a premium.


... You're still not getting it.

I'm not talking about parts or materials or sound or anything like that. I'm talking about the way it feels in your hands; once you've got a decent amount of experience with a wide range of gear you can tell when something is well made by holding it and playing it for a while. It's not just about whether there's anything wrong with it but how right it is as well.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
#53
Quote by Arby911
I neither love nor hate them, just know that they are often far better than they are given credit for.

I'd love to strip the headstock on a half dozen CV's and MIM's and do a blind test, I'd say the results would be interesting...

There's a lot of opinionated bullshit masquerading as fact in the posts above.



You're gear list pretty much tells me everything I need to know about how to weigh your opinion. I'm taking off from this thread, have a good one.
OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER
#54
There apparently seems to be some circular reasoning around here. Your opinion will not be taken seriously by certain people unless you have expensive gear. No matter how good a guitar player you are, no matter how many years or decades you've been playing, no matter how good your guitars play and sound and look.

You can be a crappy guitar player, but if you have an expensive guitar, then your opinion carries weight.

Sad, really.
Last edited by peskypesky at Dec 26, 2012,
#55
Quote by peskypesky
There apparently seems to be some circular reasoning around here. Your opinion will not be taken seriously by certain people unless you have expensive gear. No matter how good a guitar player you are, no matter how many years or decades you've been playing, no matter how good your guitars play and sound and look.

You can be a crappy guitar player, but if you have an expensive guitar, then your opinion carries weight.

Sad, really.


I agree pesky...this is what I have noticed while following this thread. I recently purchased a CVC Tele and so far I love it. It looks a lot like the MIA Tele I had in high school 28 years ago. I really liked my old MIA Tele and I really like this one but I can't tell you if one is any better than the other because it has been far too long. However, none of that really matters because when you boil it all down all that matters is if the guitar feels good in the players hand and in the players ear. Would I be happier with a $1500 MIA Tele? Maybe, maybe not. All I CAN tell you is I am quite happy with one I paid $375 for.

BTW my Tele is the 3 tone sunburst one with double binding and rosewood fretboard. It also came with a 3-ply pick guard and Alnico V's.
#56
Quote by Alucard817
Maybe bad set ups, but most likely your expectations are too high.

i'm expecting a guitar that's at least as good quality as a MIM fender, because that's what everyone tells me to expect.

are my expectations really too high?
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

...A little too proud, to be honest.
#57
Quote by peskypesky
There apparently seems to be some circular reasoning around here. Your opinion will not be taken seriously by certain people unless you have expensive gear. No matter how good a guitar player you are, no matter how many years or decades you've been playing, no matter how good your guitars play and sound and look.

You can be a crappy guitar player, but if you have an expensive guitar, then your opinion carries weight.

Sad, really.


I haven't gotten that impression. People don't agree with you, that doesn't mean your opinion isn't valid. When people have a certain opinion you may look for the reason behind it.

In this case it seems those with loads of Squiers are claiming that they are the equivalent of the more expensive, quality products.

But those who owned Squiers or lower quality guitars including ones very similar to CVs and held a MiM or MIA in their arms and knew the difference in quality was obvious are a little bit confused by people comparing guitars you get in starter packs to ones that cost £500+.

In a lot of cases people will defend the gear they have because an attack on that property is like an attack on them, and people who spent a lot of money on something will defend it because they spent so much cash on it.

That being said, if you've gone through a cycle of low end tier gear and are now on high end gear you know why certain products are more appealing to you. The build, the tone etc, but if all you've had are Squiers and have only spent a little bit of time with a MIA or a MiM (10 mins in a shop doesn't count, you are used to your guitar, new ones feel alien) then your opinion isn't as much about experience as it seems to be an emotional response that might seem to be based on justification. But then again, if a product doesn't grab you why would you buy it? But then you still haven't really experienced the product.

What I'm wondering about is what is it about the higher end models that bring them down to the fret work, trem, pickups, etc of the Squiers? From my experience the CV are okay, they aren't as good as the MiM but with some work you can bridge the gap a bit but the trem will put you out of tune quite quickly. You might get a CV with great fretwork and a MiM with poor fretwork, bit if you spend some time of the MiM you'll usually be on top.

TL;DR.

What is it for you that brings the supposed quality of the MiM down to the starter, low end tier of guitars that the CV are? Because I don't see it.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


Last edited by Mephaphil at Dec 26, 2012,
#58
Quote by peskypesky
There apparently seems to be some circular reasoning around here. Your opinion will not be taken seriously by certain people unless you have expensive gear. No matter how good a guitar player you are, no matter how many years or decades you've been playing, no matter how good your guitars play and sound and look.

You can be a crappy guitar player, but if you have an expensive guitar, then your opinion carries weight.

Sad, really.



That's not what I was saying at all. I don't have really expensive gear. I was making a point about ownership bias.
OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER
#59
Quote by Mephaphil
I haven't gotten that impression. People don't agree with you, that doesn't mean your opinion isn't valid. When people have a certain opinion you may look for the reason behind it.

In this case it seems those with loads of Squiers are claiming that they are the equivalent of the more expensive, quality products.

But those who owned Squiers or lower quality guitars including ones very similar to CVs and held a MiM or MIA in their arms and knew the difference in quality was obvious are a little bit confused by people comparing guitars you get in starter packs to ones that cost £500+.

In a lot of cases people will defend the gear they have because an attack on that property is like an attack on them, and people who spent a lot of money on something will defend it because they spent so much cash on it.

That being said, if you've gone through a cycle of low end tier gear and are now on high end gear you know why certain products are more appealing to you. The build, the tone etc, but if all you've had are Squiers and have only spent a little bit of time with a MIA or a MiM (10 mins in a shop doesn't count, you are used to your guitar, new ones feel alien) then your opinion isn't as much about experience as it seems to be an emotional response that might seem to be based on justification. But then again, if a product doesn't grab you why would you buy it? But then you still haven't really experienced the product.

What I'm wondering about is what is it about the higher end models that bring them down to the fret work, trem, pickups, etc of the Squiers? From my experience the CV are okay, they aren't as good as the MiM but with some work you can bridge the gap a bit but the trem will put you out of tune quite quickly. You might get a CV with great fretwork and a MiM with poor fretwork, bit if you spend some time of the MiM you'll usually be on top.

TL;DR.

What is it for you that brings the supposed quality of the MiM down to the starter, low end tier of guitars that the CV are? Because I don't see it.



Well Stated!
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#60
Quote by LP1951
None of that is correct. Fender switched to ash not alder because it was a much better grade of wood than pine.


Actually, Fender switched to Ash from Pine because it was (at the time) tonally similar and cheaper. However, Ash is a pretty inconsistent timber and can vary from very, very dense to very, very light, depending on how much water the tree received and which part of the tree was used. In truth, most 50s Fenders weren't consistently made with same type of wood, instead were created from pieces of wood handpicked from a mix of timbers, including Ash, Alder and Pine. During the 60s, Alder became the primary body wood (because of price) for Telecasters and Stratocasters, first introduced for sunburst strats, with Ash being reserved mostly for sunburst Telecasters. Other woods used by Fender guitar bodies include Mahogany, Rosewood, Hackberry Wood and Walnut (all four of which where used almost exclusively in the seventies and eighties)
Actually, I go by Dave, but there are already too many Daves on this forum.


Fender MIM Stratocaster
Fender Jaguar Bass
Epiphone EJ200 Super Jumbo
Fender Excelsior 13w
Acoustic B300HD (with matching 1x12 cab)
BOSS BD-2W
NYC Big Muff Pi
#61
I'm a big Squier fan, but as much as I love my Bullets, my Affinitys and my Classic Vibe, I do recognize that MIM and MIA Fenders are a step up in certain ways. I just got back from Guitar Center, where I fell in love with a MIM HSS Strat. It was hard not to walk out of the store with it.
#62
Quote by Blompcube
i'm expecting a guitar that's at least as good quality as a MIM fender, because that's what everyone tells me to expect.

are my expectations really too high?

Hype has a way of warping expectations. Only you can really say for certain what you're thinking. I am just throwing out possibilities.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#63
Quote by Alucard817
Hype has a way of warping expectations.


True. But isn't hype sometimes valid?
#64
Quote by Alucard817
Hype has a way of warping expectations. Only you can really say for certain what you're thinking. I am just throwing out possibilities.

I think my expectations have been warped by hype and i'm completely out of my mind to expect a CV to be as good as my MIM fender baja tele

but i'm interested to see what other people think - which is why i'm asking
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

...A little too proud, to be honest.
#65
Quote by peskypesky
There apparently seems to be some circular reasoning around here. Your opinion will not be taken seriously by certain people unless you have expensive gear. No matter how good a guitar player you are, no matter how many years or decades you've been playing, no matter how good your guitars play and sound and look.

You can be a crappy guitar player, but if you have an expensive guitar, then your opinion carries weight.

Sad, really.

You're definitely reading too much into this. Arby said something to Rooster with prejudice, Rooster responded with a different prejudice. I hope you don't think they represent anyone but themselves.
#66
Quote by Blompcube
I think my expectations have been warped by hype and i'm completely out of my mind to expect a CV to be as good as my MIM fender baja tele

but i'm interested to see what other people think - which is why i'm asking

How dare you think a guitar company whos been around over 60 years have better quality than their sister company.
Okay in all seriousness. You have to admit not many manufacturers will use pups with the quality of the Alnico V's in their 300-350 dollar guitars like Squier does.
Quote by peskypesky
True. But isn't hype sometimes valid?

In my 37 years of being alive I have found the answer to that is rarely if ever yes. Does that mean I think Squiers are shit? Absolutely not. I own two, an Affinity P bass and a VM Mustang. I think Squiers are a damn good bang for your buck especially since many in the CV/VM series' have some of the same specs as many MIM Fenders.

Looking at this purely factual Fenders DO have higher quality woods and finishes and in the case of the lower Squiers, They can't even come close to comparing to any Fender. On average Fender MIM's do have higher quality pups and hardware (minus the Alnico V's in some CV's).

The way I look at is this. A good Squier CV/VM will beat out a mediocre or so-so MIM Fender, but a good MIM Fender will beat out a good Squier.

The area that no one can measure is feel and tone. Different people feel different attributes, while at the same time those same people will hear different nuances in different guitars.

I think this is what a lot of people here are arguing in this thread. Rather than just admitting to themselves that everyone is going to have their own preferences and leave it at that.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#67
Quote by W4RP1G
You're definitely reading too much into this. Arby said something to Rooster with prejudice, Rooster responded with a different prejudice. I hope you don't think they represent anyone but themselves.


+1
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#68
Could we all just agree that Squiers are to Fenders what Toyotas are to Lexuses?

The fact that the Lexus is higher quality does not mean the Toyota is crap. All these products will get the job done.
#69
Quote by peskypesky
Could we all just agree that Squiers are to Fenders what Toyotas are to Lexuses?

The fact that the Lexus is higher quality does not mean the Toyota is crap. All these products will get the job done.

Not the same though. Toyota and Lexus are basically the same people. Fender MIA and MIM are not the same people as Squier MIC.
#71
Quote by peskypesky
Ok, Squiers are to Fenders the way Acura is to Honda.

Fixed.

Though I hold Acuras in a higher regard in relation to Honda than I do Squier to Fender. I don't think a analogy will do here. Let's just say that Squier is owned by Fender, but made to a lower standard by cheaper labor using cheaper parts in a different country. Although, that's up for debate when you factor in the MIM line.

Also, the Japanese line of Fenders slays any other Fender import. Hands down. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
#72
Quote by W4RP1G

Also, the Japanese line of Fenders slays any other Fender import. Hands down. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


what about the Japanese Squiers?
#73
Bang for your buck... That doesn't define quality in any way. If anything you are justifying low quality with low price. A MiM for £200, now that's bang for buck. I bought my Squier from my pal for £30, at that price I couldn't pass it up as I wanted a guitar to strip and rewire etc.

I wouldn't spend more on one, i'd rather save and sell stuff if I had to to get a MiJ or a MiM.

£80ish is what I would consider bang for your buck with a Squier.

I'm not talking about quality as such here as much as I'm talking about how much I think they are worth based on used market prices in relation to the new RRP.

Plus the term bang for your buck just seems a little bit counter active when arguing the quality of the instrument
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


#74
Quote by peskypesky
what about the Japanese Squiers?

Not sure, I've never come across one. I hear they are pretty good. I'm sure they are better than Chinese Squiers, but it's hard to believe the hype when people way stuff like they are better than MIA and todays MIJ Fenders. Idk, I think Japanese guitars from the 80s and early 90s get far too much credit. I wonder if in 2030 people will be talking about guitars from the early 2000s like they do other eras.
Last edited by W4RP1G at Dec 27, 2012,
#76
They'll probably talk about certain signature models. The Billy Corgan one for example, which is awesome.

I think that one will be talked about.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


#77
Quote by Mephaphil
Bang for your buck... That doesn't define quality in any way. If anything you are justifying low quality with low price. A MiM for £200, now that's bang for buck. I bought my Squier from my pal for £30, at that price I couldn't pass it up as I wanted a guitar to strip and rewire etc.

I wouldn't spend more on one, i'd rather save and sell stuff if I had to to get a MiJ or a MiM.

£80ish is what I would consider bang for your buck with a Squier.

I'm not talking about quality as such here as much as I'm talking about how much I think they are worth based on used market prices in relation to the new RRP.

Plus the term bang for your buck just seems a little bit counter active when arguing the quality of the instrument

"Bang for your buck" is a totally subjective idea, so you're arguing semantics.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#78
Quote by Alucard817
"Bang for your buck" is a totally subjective idea, so you're arguing semantics.

A guitar can be objectively better. Therefore, a guitar can theoretically be objectively than other guitars in it's price range. But once we start getting into whether or not being objectively better is worth it to the buyer based on their preferences, things get complicated.
#79
Quote by W4RP1G
A guitar can be objectively better. Therefore, a guitar can theoretically be objectively than other guitars in it's price range. But once we start getting into whether or not being objectively better is worth it to the buyer based on their preferences, things get complicated.

What I was more referring to is "bang for your buck" may mean one thing to one person and another to someone else. That's why I said it's an subjective idea. I may think something is a deal, someone else may not, which is what I think you were getting at with your "preferences" statement.

So I think my statement still stands.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
Last edited by Alucard817 at Dec 27, 2012,
#80
That's a side point to the fact that I still very much think that MIM Fenders as a whole are better than CV Squiers as a whole.
OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER