Raizatso
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Join date: Apr 2011
111 IQ
#1
I always wanted to play a classical melody in the guitar like malmsteen , thing is I got nailed with theory in jazz, i keep on my mind this mode (Pentatonic minor->Major->Dorian->Phrygian->Mixolydian and goes back to Pentatonic Minor)

Now i really enjoy this mode, but i have this urge to turn into a neo classical metal player or play a darker melody, I've been looking in the ultimate guitar lessons and tips, i got the idea of Cicle of fifth's, Arpeggios and so on, but i can't seem to connect harmonic minor,melodic minor scales into modes, I've searched other websites and they keep explaining in a confusing way.

Can some please enlight me with this scales mode or just tell me the sequence?
I really want to play classic melody in guitar or a darker melody
Hail
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Join date: Jan 2010
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#2
forget scales, learn some classical and neoclassical
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TheNameOfNoone
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#3
If you came to UG expecting to get some classical music knowledge, you're gonna have a bad time.

Just kidding, maybe there's somebody who knows that stuff... It's not me tho.
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poisonousmetal
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Join date: Dec 2010
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#4
You don't nee d the sequence, as Phrygian Dominant(Yngwies thang) is a just the Phrygian with a major third. So I highly recommend making your own sequence tree(I have mine), based on the scale you're most familiar with. First, get the sound of Phrygian, Harm minor, Melodic minor etc. in your head, so that even when you're humming there's the knowledge of what you're doing.
Hail
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Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#6
Quote by TheNameOfNoone
If you came to UG expecting to get some classical music knowledge, you're gonna have a bad time.

Just kidding, maybe there's somebody who knows that stuff... It's not me tho.

isn't half this forum full of music students?

plus, there's almost nothing classical about neoclassical other than ripping off far more significant composers. it's its own aesthetic, very far from the realm of classical music in logic.

Quote by poisonousmetal
You don't nee d the sequence, as Phrygian Dominant(Yngwies thang) is a just the Phrygian with a major third. So I highly recommend making your own sequence tree(I have mine), based on the scale you're most familiar with. First, get the sound of Phrygian, Harm minor, Melodic minor etc. in your head, so that even when you're humming there's the knowledge of what you're doing.


i'm gonna hurt you bad
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Hail killed MT

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CryogenicHusk
wannabe guitarist
Join date: Apr 2012
1,005 IQ
#7
Quote by Raizatso
I always wanted to play a classical melody in the guitar like malmsteen , thing is I got nailed with theory in jazz, i keep on my mind this mode (Pentatonic minor->Major->Dorian->Phrygian->Mixolydian and goes back to Pentatonic Minor)

Now i really enjoy this mode, but i have this urge to turn into a neo classical metal player or play a darker melody, I've been looking in the ultimate guitar lessons and tips, i got the idea of Cicle of fifth's, Arpeggios and so on, but i can't seem to connect harmonic minor,melodic minor scales into modes, I've searched other websites and they keep explaining in a confusing way.

Can some please enlight me with this scales mode or just tell me the sequence?
I really want to play classic melody in guitar or a darker melody


I can't tell from experience because I'm not quite there yet, but what seems to have worked for a lot of people, including some of the neoclassical shred greats, was listening to baroque music or other neoclassical guitarists, such as Malmsteen, and transcribing their music. You can think about the theory part when you want to examine and explain what they did, but it's better you don't confine yourself to scales and "modes" when writing (especially considering you seem to be an experienced enough player to start to look beyond scales), and just listen A LOT, transcribe, and then when you want to write, write from what you hear in your head.
Last edited by CryogenicHusk at Dec 27, 2012,
poisonousmetal
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Join date: Dec 2010
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#8
Easy, Hail, easy. He asked for the scalar knowledge, I suggested just getting the sound in his head so that when it comes at him from Yngwie, or anywhere he knows. I think THAT is the way to learn a scale, not just as a pattern. That's just me though.
Hail
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Join date: Jan 2010
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#9
Quote by poisonousmetal
Easy, Hail, easy. He asked for the scalar knowledge, I suggested just getting the sound in his head so that when it comes at him from Yngwie, or anywhere he knows. I think THAT is the way to learn a scale, not just as a pattern. That's just me though.


do i need to be like xiaoxi and put it in my sig my opinion of scales

it's a stepping stone into theory. when you ask yourself "when do i know enough theory?" it's probably when you have to don't rely on a scale or shape to know what you're doing and what other people are doing
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Hail killed MT

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poisonousmetal
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#10
To make Hail happy:
What said, it's obviously the theory part, not application, BUT your ear is still your most important tool, so just follow it. I have 1 neo-classical piece which actually has no particular scale, so I'd recommend just following the ear, learning some Yngwie & Becker and just use theory for analyzing pieces.
poisonousmetal
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#11
Quote by Hail
do i need to be like xiaoxi and put it in my sig my opinion of scales

If the person is like that well, he is limiting himself(not you or xiaoxi, the example given). But the just a guideline of notes that go together in a way. They ARE meant to be broken, not just to limit.
Artemis Entreri
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#12
Not really...transcending the need for scales to make music isn't that limiting. It's quite liberating, rather.
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griffRG7321
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#13
The key to playing neoclassical metal

- play fast scales
-play fast arpeggios
-steal some classical melodies
-tell all of your friends that it's neoclassical
-don't tell anyone who actually knows what neoclassical music is because they will laugh at you
poisonousmetal
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#14
Quote by Artemis Entreri
Not really...transcending the need for scales to make music isn't that limiting. It's quite liberating, rather.

Depending on them, because if a person knows the song is in let's say A and plays basically equally sounds on a song on G, represents a limitation of creativity, as every key has it's own harmonic tendencies for everyone and some intonation problems in the guitar, and that he actually just depends on the shapes. Which wouldn't be the thing the user shouldn't do.
Hail
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#15
Quote by poisonousmetal
Depending on them, because if a person knows the song is in let's say A and plays basically equally sounds on a song on G, represents a limitation of creativity, as every key has it's own harmonic tendencies for everyone and some intonation problems in the guitar, and that he actually just depends on the shapes. Which wouldn't be the thing the user shouldn't do.


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Hail killed MT

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Last edited by Hail at Dec 27, 2012,
Raizatso
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
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#17
Also I noticed in my guitar jouney...
Theres this times i can sense how repetitive it get's when I'm improvising :S
I'm trying to break that chain thats limiting my creativity!
My guitar teacher says the solution is to feel the music and instead of following the scales patern create something diferent, but when i release myself from it the notes dont seem to have connection, even based with the scales notes.

I've learned myself some malmsteen songs (assuming i was classicaly trained when I started with the guitar basics) and i get the idea of writting a melody or transcribing what the guitarrist is playing cause I do it myself, but i placed this question mostly because where I live is hard to find other genre guitarrists, because most of guitarrists here dont give a crap about lead guitar, or getting classicaly trained and do some nice solos and actually dedicate to the guitar.

So I asked here because this place have people from everywhere, and I know theres guitarrists wich are more experiencied then me here.

In my mind I have this melody, but when to transfer to guitar my mind just completely locks in the scales, god damn for me being nailed at the theory!
Last edited by Raizatso at Dec 27, 2012,
Artemis Entreri
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#18
Quote by poisonousmetal
Depending on them, because if a person knows the song is in let's say A and plays basically equally sounds on a song on G, represents a limitation of creativity, as every key has it's own harmonic tendencies for everyone and some intonation problems in the guitar, and that he actually just depends on the shapes. Which wouldn't be the thing the user shouldn't do.


That was the most poorly constructed block of text I think I've ever read. It's barely even forgivable if English is your second language.

I've read that thrice and I don't even know what you're saying.... so if you could clarify what "and plays basically equally sounds on a song on G, represents a limitation of creativity..." [sic].

Every key doesn't have it's own harmonic tendancies.... a I IV V I is the same in every key. Go listen to the well tempered clavier. Before we had equal tempered tuning you would be slightly more correct, but not now. And honestly, I think Db sounds different from D. That being said, HARMONIC tendencies? No.
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evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#19
Also I noticed in my guitar jouney...
Theres this times i can sense how repetitive it get's when I'm improvising :S
I'm trying to break that chain thats limiting my creativity!
My guitar teacher says the solution is to feel the music and instead of following the scales patern create something diferent, but when i release myself from it the notes dont seem to have connection, even based with the scales notes.


The art of the solo transcends shapes. Of course if you look at it afterwards you will find patterns. But not to think of them, that is the key... to that door. There's another door after that... but griff stole the key. English... pffft. Can't trust them with anything.
Quote from a white boy:

You better lose yourself in the music, the moment,
You own it, you better never let it go,
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow,
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime, yo!


And that is how you write a solo. One shot and feel it - unless it's an instrumental with multiple solos which would equate to loneliness as one doesn't have a vocalist to rip off anymore. Listen to a lot of Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore, Tony MacAlpine, Jason Becker and Marty Friedman (Cacophony), goodgodihavetomention Chris Impelliteri, At Vance, etc. Listening and understanding will be your salvation. Oh wait. We're talking about neoclassical... no need to feel it. Scrap that zen rubbish for this genre. Just follow everyone elses advice and use this post as a paper weight or bookmark.
Raizatso
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
111 IQ
#20
Quote by evolucian
The art of the solo transcends shapes. Of course if you look at it afterwards you will find patterns. But not to think of them, that is the key... to that door. There's another door after that... but griff stole the key. English... pffft. Can't trust them with anything.
Quote from a white boy:

You better lose yourself in the music, the moment,
You own it, you better never let it go,
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow,
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime, yo!


And that is how you write a solo. One shot and feel it - unless it's an instrumental with multiple solos which would equate to loneliness as one doesn't have a vocalist to rip off anymore. Listen to a lot of Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore, Tony MacAlpine, Jason Becker and Marty Friedman (Cacophony), goodgodihavetomention Chris Impelliteri, At Vance, etc. Listening and understanding will be your salvation. Oh wait. We're talking about neoclassical... no need to feel it. Scrap that zen rubbish for this genre. Just follow everyone elses advice and use this post as a paper weight or bookmark.



Thanks!I'll do my best!
Rock on! \m/
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
3,411 IQ
#21
Why do you want to use those scales? I don't really understand your post.

Listen to the harmony. Playing random scales over random chords isn't going to work. Don't try to connect different scales. Think about the melody. What do you want to hear? Don't change scales if you don't want to hear that.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#22
EVO OMG STOP hahahahahaha

HIS PALMS ARE SWEATY KNEES WEAK ARMS ARE HEAVY VOMIT ON HIS SWEATER ALREADY MOMS SPAGHETTI
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Hail killed MT

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I want to be Hail when I grow up.
:-D
you're an idiot
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#23
Quote by Raizatso
I always wanted to play a classical melody in the guitar like malmsteen , thing is I got nailed with theory in jazz, i keep on my mind this mode (Pentatonic minor->Major->Dorian->Phrygian->Mixolydian and goes back to Pentatonic Minor)

Now i really enjoy this mode, but i have this urge to turn into a neo classical metal player or play a darker melody, I've been looking in the ultimate guitar lessons and tips, i got the idea of Cicle of fifth's, Arpeggios and so on, but i can't seem to connect harmonic minor,melodic minor scales into modes, I've searched other websites and they keep explaining in a confusing way.

Can some please enlight me with this scales mode or just tell me the sequence?
I really want to play classic melody in guitar or a darker melody

gonna ask a question i'm fairly certain i know the answer to - how much of this style of music have you listened to/do you have under your belt?

now i'll ask a question that has an answer more unknown to me to balance things out: have you ever knocked over a small child's sandcastle at the beach and laughed?
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#24
One day, evo... one day you can find that kid and apologise. Then take his lunch money instead
Raizatso
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
111 IQ
#25
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Why do you want to use those scales? I don't really understand your post.

Listen to the harmony. Playing random scales over random chords isn't going to work. Don't try to connect different scales. Think about the melody. What do you want to hear? Don't change scales if you don't want to hear that.



By what you said I can clearly see you din't learn music,and I am not going to say anything more because that would just lead you to more confusion
Raizatso
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
111 IQ
#26
Quote by :-D
gonna ask a question i'm fairly certain i know the answer to - how much of this style of music have you listened to/do you have under your belt?

now i'll ask a question that has an answer more unknown to me to balance things out: have you ever knocked over a small child's sandcastle at the beach and laughed?


Alot, has i said , i was classicaly trained, but I am not going to make a REMIX of everything.

And no, that will just ruin his fun, why is this question posted here?
Raizatso
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
111 IQ
#27
So I found the solution to my problem, it seems i have been this months alot in jazz and my melody sounds so jazzie, so i forgot all that and tried something new, it worked

thx anyway for the help
MaggaraMarine
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Join date: Oct 2009
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#29
Quote by Raizatso
By what you said I can clearly see you din't learn music,and I am not going to say anything more because that would just lead you to more confusion

What? I'm pretty sure I know my theory better than you. The wording of your question was confusing to me. But you should listen to the chords behind your solo and choose what scales (or notes) you are going to use.

Quote by Raizatso
Also I noticed in my guitar jouney...
Theres this times i can sense how repetitive it get's when I'm improvising :S
I'm trying to break that chain thats limiting my creativity!
My guitar teacher says the solution is to feel the music and instead of following the scales patern create something diferent, but when i release myself from it the notes dont seem to have connection, even based with the scales notes.

I've learned myself some malmsteen songs (assuming i was classicaly trained when I started with the guitar basics) and i get the idea of writting a melody or transcribing what the guitarrist is playing cause I do it myself, but i placed this question mostly because where I live is hard to find other genre guitarrists, because most of guitarrists here dont give a crap about lead guitar, or getting classicaly trained and do some nice solos and actually dedicate to the guitar.

So I asked here because this place have people from everywhere, and I know theres guitarrists wich are more experiencied then me here.

In my mind I have this melody, but when to transfer to guitar my mind just completely locks in the scales, god damn for me being nailed at the theory!

Yeah... The melodies will fit those scales. You need more ear training. The scale is a collection of (usually) seven notes so just learn how each note sounds over a chord. Then you remember that "the fourth note in this scale sounds like this and the melody that I hear in my head starts with the fourth note." When you hear a melody, you might hear that it fits a certain scale. But the chords you are playing over makes it sound very different. For example play the same thing over one chord or a progression. That's why it's important to know what chords you are playing over: They change how the melody you are playing sounds like.

If you want to play what you hear in your head, start with slow, simple melodies. Again, it's about ear training and recognizing the intervals in your melody.

What I meant with my last post was that don't change scales if the melodies you hear in your head don't change scales. It sounds like you are playing "random" notes from those scales and that's why "connecting" them is hard. That's why you should listen to the chords and try to land on the chord tones. That will help. Think about how you want it to sound like and how you can make it sound like that. The key is to listen to how your playing sounds like. If you don't want to hear "the sound of phrygian dominant scale", then don't play that scale. All of the notes you want to play might fit just one scale, for example harmonic minor that's used a lot in neo classical.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Yamaha FG720S-12
Tokai TB48
Laney VC30
Hartke HyDrive 210c