Page 2 of 3
#41
Quote by Alucard817
I'm not a fan of either personally. They feel too thin for my tastes, but my Kramer neck is buttery goodness.



Yes. The perfect neck for me. I like them better than my 60s Tele necks or my Les Paul neck.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 29, 2012,
#42
Gibson hasn't failed in any way, and to label a brand to a genre is stupid. There are tons of bands from pop to death metal that uses them.
The fail is that no dealers stock Kramers...
Kramer Guitars = Love.
#43
Quote by RiseTheFallen
Gibson hasn't failed in any way, and to label a brand to a genre is stupid. There are tons of bands from pop to death metal that uses them.
The fail is that no dealers stock Kramers...
Kramer Guitars = Love.


Hasn't Gibson failed to get their Kramers stocked at music stores? It is Gibson's responsibility to get their guitars stocked not the dealers.

I agree, "to label a brand to a genre is stupid." The Kramer FR 422 is the most versatile guitar that I own. I use it for all styles of music except country and slide. However, if I blocked the trem, I think it would even work for slide.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 29, 2012,
#45
If someone plays only one style of music, they may be great in that particular style. That's cool. However, if they only play one style, they are limiting their potential as a guitarist and their enjoyment IMHO.

I'm from Mississippi and grew up playing with blues musicians, so I naturally gravitate toward playing the blues, but I have learned other styles some that I enjoy (country chickin pickin), jazz, bluegrass and blues oriented rock; and some that I don't enjoy playing bubble gum rock and metal shredding.

Eddie Van Halen is the most famous Kramer player, I can appreciate his skill even though I do not like Van Halens music and I don't label Kramer guitars as exclusively metal shredders simply because most of the shredders used Kramers.

The fact is that most all of the most popular guitarists of the 80s played Kramers. In 1985 & 1986, Kramer was the best selling guitar brand in the World, more sales than Fender or Gibson. Heck, even Johnny Cash's guitarist played a Kramer and Cash was about as far from Hair Metal as you can get.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 29, 2012,
#46
The new Kramers are pretty good, and one of my friends has the 211 and raves about it. But my problem with them is that they are a bit too modern for me, and as to the decline, it's because of the decline of ****-rockers, and somehow the name got buried with CockRock.
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#47
Quote by Boonnoo666
The new Kramers are pretty good, and one of my friends has the 211 and raves about it...


It's good to hear Gibson has kept up quality since going retail with the Kramer line.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#48
Quote by LP1951
Hasn't Gibson failed to get their Kramers stocked at music stores? It is Gibson's responsibility to get their guitars stocked not the dealers.

I agree, "to label a brand to a genre is stupid." The Kramer FR 422 is the most versatile guitar that I own. I use it for all styles of music except country and slide. However, if I blocked the trem, I think it would even work for slide.

Yes and no.

Yes, because Gibson could do so much more to advertise the brand. As stated a million times in this thread Kramers are incredibly versatile and they have a pretty damn good lineage. Gibson should use that to promote the brand.

No, because of the hype and fanboyism surrounding other "better known" brands.
Look at this site for instance. How many people suggest Ibanez or Jackson guitars over everything else? This hype is everywhere and that is hard to overcome.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#49
Quote by Alucard817


...Gibson could do so much more to advertise the brand...

... How many people suggest Ibanez or Jackson guitars over everything else? This hype is everywhere and that is hard to overcome.


At first, Gibson had a good marketing plan, selling top quality quitars wholesale through Gibson owned Musicyo.com. In the early 2000s, their FR422 & 424 models which were basically the ProAxe design got great reviews. They must have been selling a lot of them because they were constantly out of stock. By 2005, these guitars were back ordered for months. Then in 2009, Gibson shut Musicyo down without having dealers lined up So now they are still selling their Kramers through online dealers at 40% higher prices. They would have been much better off if they had kept Musicyo open until they got firm committments from dealers to stock Kramers.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#51
Quote by dannyalcatraz
You know, Gary Kramer has his own company...

http://garykramerguitar.com/index.html


Yes I've seen those, but I like the Gibson/Kramers much better. I like having a tone control and a push/pull coil tap.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#52
I haven't looked at the standard models, but I have seen the customs- I bet you could get a GKG with those features.
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#53
Quote by dannyalcatraz
I haven't looked at the standard models, but I have seen the customs- I bet you could get a GKG with those features.


Thanks but I already have 3 Kramers and I probably won't buy anymore unless I can find a good deal on a ProAxe, Showster or maybe a SM1.

http://www.vintagekramer.com/company12.htm

http://www.kramerguitars.com/Products/SM-1/SM-1-Seymour-Duncan.aspx
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 30, 2012,
#54
Ross Music in R.I. carries them as far as I know. But Gibson does need to push them more since they now own the brand. I'm surprised that Guitar Center doesn't carry them.
#55
The chief reason no one carries Kramer is that no one buys them. Not that no one can buy them because they're not in stores, no stores carry them because no one bought them. It's simple business. Why stock things nobody wants?
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#56
Quote by JustRooster
The chief reason no one carries Kramer is that no one buys them. Not that no one can buy them because they're not in stores, no stores carry them because no one bought them. It's simple business. Why stock things nobody wants?


Not true.

From 2000 to 2009, Gibson was selling so many Kramers that certain models were constantly sold out and buyers were waiting months to get Kramers.

After Gibson went retail with Kramers, all the online dealers quickly sold all the Kramer FR422s & 424s that they had.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/kramer-striker-fr-422sm-electric-guitar
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 30, 2012,
#57
The main thing to remember when judging what shops keep 'in stock' is that what is out on the store floor is not their entire stock. Most shops—especially large chains and those with a big online presence—keep most of their stock in warehouses, and only the most profitable stuff gets put on display in the actual shops. Additionally, many shops will be dealers of a particular brand and be able to order them in, but may not bother to keep models in stock. Most Mayones dealers, for instance, don't actually have any Mayones guitars at all, as they're made to order. As more and more people buy guitars online and physical store sales drop, the less stock shops will get in. Give it a few years and you'll see most stores only buying in to order, outside of the guaranteed sellers like Fender Standard Stratocasters and Epiphone Les Paul Standards.

The second thing to remember is that this topic is stupid, founded on complete guesswork by people with no clue or sense of perspective and is, entirely, nonsense.
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#58
Quote by Alucard817
I too like the newer Kramers (Striker 211 is sexy as hell) and these guitars can do a hell of a lot more than just hair metal...


The old early 80s Kramers were limited because they lacked coil taps and models like 5150 were limited because of the one pup, one volume and no tone control design, but the late 80s Kramers like the Stagemaster, ProAxe and Showster IIIs are very versatile. Those then revolutionary designs were copied by the other manufacturers of FR equipped quitars.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#59
Quote by LP1951
Not true.

From 2000 to 2009, Gibson was selling so many Kramers that certain models were constantly sold out and buyers were waiting months to get Kramers.

After Gibson went retail with Kramers, all the online dealers quickly sold all the Kramer FR422s & 424s that they had.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/kramer-striker-fr-422sm-electric-guitar



I'm talking about the stores. Almost no one buys a Kramer off the walls. Sure, they're going to be sold out online when you only make a certain amount. It's a niche market. That market has money.

When only 1,000 people want to buy your guitars, it's easy to make only 100, overprice them, and make them seems like it's impossible to keep in stock. Gibson's running a good business plan by making Kramers seem more in demand than they are.
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#60
Quote by JustRooster

When only 1,000 people want to buy your guitars, it's easy to make only 100, overprice them, and make them seems like it's impossible to keep in stock. Gibson's running a good business plan by making Kramers seem more in demand than they are.


So let me see if I understand your guess on the twisted logic of Gibson's crazy "marketing" plan for Kramer Guitars?

You think Gibson bought Kramer just so that they could pretend that they could sell Kramers? Then they spent alot of money building an online company, Musicyo, and on advertising Kramers, so that they could pretend to be selling Kramers?

But they only made 100 Kramers so that they would quickly sell out so that they could post "out of stock" for the best sellers like the 422 & 424?

What about all those other models that didn't sell out? Why didn't they just post an "out of stock" message for all the Kramer models?

Ok, let's assume that your guess about their crazy "marketing" plan is true. Then how do you account for the fact that, once the 422s & 424s were offered online by several retailers, they quickly sold out? Do you think that major retailers like Musicians Friend, Zsounds, Sam Ash etc etc would pretend to be selling Kramers so that Gibson could successfully implement their crazy "marketing" plan to pretend to be selling Kramers?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/kramer-striker-fr-422sm-electric-guitar
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#62
Quote by LP1951
Ok, let's assume that your guess about their crazy "marketing" plan is true.

Are you really saying that creating a shortage of something to increase prices is "crazy"? I'm not saying that Rooster is correct, but your assumption that a company would never do something like that is pretty out there.
#63
Quote by Wisthekiller
Just chiming in here: I bought one of these http://www.kramerguitars.com/Products/Pacer/Pacer-Vintage.aspx at Themusiczoo with no wait time, no problem, and I prefer it over my Les Paul by miles. The new Kramers kick ass.


I don't know about the current Gibson/Kramers simply because I have never seen a new one in any music stores, but the Gibson/Kramers that I bought in 2001 are fantastic. In fact, if I could only have one electric it would probably be my FR422 Evo.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#64
Quote by LP1951
So let me see if I understand your guess on the twisted logic of Gibson's crazy "marketing" plan for Kramer Guitars?

You think Gibson bought Kramer just so that they could pretend that they could sell Kramers? Then they spent alot of money building an online company, Musicyo, and on advertising Kramers, so that they could pretend to be selling Kramers?

But they only made 100 Kramers so that they would quickly sell out so that they could post "out of stock" for the best sellers like the 422 & 424?

What about all those other models that didn't sell out? Why didn't they just post an "out of stock" message for all the Kramer models?

Ok, let's assume that your guess about their crazy "marketing" plan is true. Then how do you account for the fact that, once the 422s & 424s were offered online by several retailers, they quickly sold out? Do you think that major retailers like Musicians Friend, Zsounds, Sam Ash etc etc would pretend to be selling Kramers so that Gibson could successfully implement their crazy "marketing" plan to pretend to be selling Kramers?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/kramer-striker-fr-422sm-electric-guitar



Say all you want, dude. I'm not complaining about why things aren't the way I want, I'm trying to offer an explanation as to why they are the way they are. I'm not a Kramer player, so I don't really have any investment in their availability either way.

Guitars that sell will be sold. That's business. I didn't even know what a John Petrucci signature was 2 years ago, now both shops in Stevens Point, my old small town, have one each. They normally carry MIM Fenders and Epiphones.

Neither of those locations ever catered to metal guitars, now both carry Ibanez and ESP. Those guitars sell, so those shops started carrying them, even though they were local. Not even the Milwaukee or Madison GC's carry Kramer.


Don't misunderstand my argument. I'm not saying Kramers are bad guitars. I'm saying that they have nearly no market, hence low representation. Supply/Demand.
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Last edited by JustRooster at Dec 30, 2012,
#65
Quote by JustRooster


Don't misunderstand my argument. I'm not saying Kramers are bad guitars. I'm saying that they have nearly no market, hence low representation. Supply/Demand.


I agree that Gibson/Kramer has a low market presence, but I don't believe that Gibson intended to have low market presence. Nor do I believe that Gibson intentionally limited the supply of Kramers. Gibson would increase the supply in a heartbeat if dealers would stock their guitars.

Ibanez currently has a much more attractive lineup of models. I just don't like their necks.

In the 2000s, Gibson had a great lineup of Kramers, but they dropped the ball in 2009 and discontinued their best models.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 30, 2012,
#66
Quote by JustRooster
The chief reason no one carries Kramer is that no one buys them. Not that no one can buy them because they're not in stores, no stores carry them because no one bought them. It's simple business. Why stock things nobody wants?

You can't sell something if you don't stock it in the first place.
It's all about brand recognition. If people don't know the brand they are less likely to buy it. This is where Gibson has dropped the ball in promoting Kramer.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#67
You can't sell something if you don't stock it in the first place.


While I agree with that, retail websites and other JIT inventory practices have changed the definition of "in stock".
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#68
I really don't think they would sell a ton more if they were instock, but I agree you can't sell something if people have no place to buy it.

Even as good as the kramers were back in the day they were not extremely popular guitars.
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#69
I'll just post my last post in this thread and main point. If people wanted to buy Kramers, they would. If there was a demand for Kramers, local shops would supply it. That's business 101. That's as simple and grassroots as it can get.
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#70
Quote by dannyalcatraz
While I agree with that, retail websites and other JIT inventory practices have changed the definition of "in stock".

Good point.
Quote by Robbgnarly
I really don't think they would sell a ton more if they were instock, but I agree you can't sell something if people have no place to buy it.

Even as good as the kramers were back in the day they were not extremely popular guitars.

Yes they were. Kramers were huge in the 80's.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#71
Quote by Robbgnarly
I really don't think they would sell a ton more if they were instock, but I agree you can't sell something if people have no place to buy it.

Even as good as the kramers were back in the day they were not extremely popular guitars.


In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramer_Guitars
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 30, 2012,
#72
Quote by JustRooster
I'll just post my last post in this thread and main point. If people wanted to buy Kramers, they would. If there was a demand for Kramers, local shops would supply it. That's business 101. That's as simple and grassroots as it can get.



Pretty sure we can close the thread because there isn't much more to say than this.

The brand has been revived, by the way.

But Rooster hit the nail on the head.
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#74
Quote by ihartfood
I don't see how this is a legitimate question seeing as the brand is still selling.


It wasn't one.
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#75
Quote by Alucard817
You can't sell something if you don't stock it in the first place.
It's all about brand recognition. If people don't know the brand they are less likely to buy it. This is where Gibson has dropped the ball in promoting Kramer.


Exactly. The Kramer brand has not been prominent in music stores since the 80s so it is only familiar to people who were in the market for guitars back then or people like me who just happened upon Musicyo.com back in the 2000s while looking for a FR guitar and took a chance on Gibson Kramers.

Compare that to the marketing of the Ibanez brand.

If you walked into a music store looking for a FR guitar today for the first time today without any knowledge of the history of Kramer in the 80s or word of mouth knowledge of the quality of the 2000s Kramers, you most likely would never even consider buying a Kramer because you would not see them in the store and there is no in-store advertising of the brand as there is for Ibanez at Guitar Centers everywhere.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 31, 2012,
#76
Gibson/Kramer sales are only a fraction of the Kramer sales volume of the 80s. In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramer_Guitars

Technically, Gibson has revived Kramer, but it is not much of a revival.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#77
"In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons."

I'm sort of skeptical about that. Anyone have another source of that? All I could find was the wikipedia page where it says "When the sales figures came in, Kramer was the best-selling guitar brand of 1985." And I could not find a reference to it in the sources cited, though I did look fairly quickly. I didn't check the Kramer guitar forum that is cited either.
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#78
Quote by Steve-Mo
"In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons."

I'm sort of skeptical about that. Anyone have another source of that? All I could find was the wikipedia page where it says "When the sales figures came in, Kramer was the best-selling guitar brand of 1985." And I could not find a reference to it in the sources cited, though I did look fairly quickly. I didn't check the Kramer guitar forum that is cited either.

scroll down to number 9
http://www.onlybestguitar.com/2009/04/17/10-best-guitar-brands-and-some-information/
http://www.musicminder.com/scripts/entertainers/displayentertainer.asp?ID=010432

Theres two I could find.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#79
Quote by Alucard817


Thanks for those very interesting and informative articles. It is interesting to note that Gibson was able to quickly revive its brand but have been unable to do the same for Kramer. It is also interesting to note that Gibson hit its bottom in sales in 1986 when Kramer was the World's best selling guitar brand.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#80
Quote by Steve-Mo
"In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons."

I'm sort of skeptical about that. Anyone have another source of that? All I could find was the wikipedia page where it says "When the sales figures came in, Kramer was the best-selling guitar brand of 1985." And I could not find a reference to it in the sources cited, though I did look fairly quickly. I didn't check the Kramer guitar forum that is cited either.


Here's an article confirming it at the same site you have listed in your signature:

http://www.last.fm/group/Kramer

Here's another article about how Kramer became the best selling guitar brand in the World:

http://www.guitar-list.com/brands/kramer

"Kramer’s artist roster quickly rose to house the biggest, baddest, meanest, loudest, fastest, and best Guitar Stars in the world. The Kramer roster was obviously led by Eddie Van Halen, who took the Kramer and Floyd Rose combination to heights never even conceived by existing guitarists. The story goes like this - Eddie had been interested in finding a tremolo that stayed in tune, which would be more stable and versatile than existing tremolos.

When a meeting between Eddie Van Halen and Kramer execs took place, Eddie was quickly sold on the opportunity and he reportedly quipped that he would help make Kramer the “#1 guitar company in the world.”

Well, that did happen! Kramer became the world’s best selling guitar in the mid-80s, passing the historic and iconic Gibson and Fender brands. Coincidentally 2009 marks the 25th anniversary of the merger of an artist, a guitar and a tremolo to give birth to the most recognizable guitar in Rock-n-roll history."
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Dec 31, 2012,