rockingamer2
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#2
There is no such thing as D minor dorian pentatonic.

^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Jan 14, 2013,
Angusman60
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#3
One can use the pentatonic scale as the Dorian "mode". The reasoning is that the pentatonic scale is minor in tonality, such as the Dorian mode, but, it does not contain the other scale degrees needed to make it specifically "Dorian". So, one can use the pentatonic scale over a passage in which a Dorian mode may be called for, however, there is not enough context to call it definitively "Dorian".


EDIT: Whether one can call a pentatonic "Dorian" or not will depend on the context in which one is using it. ie: If one were to play D minor pentatonic over a ii chord is the key of C, it could be said that PARTS of the Dorian mode are being used.
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Last edited by Angusman60 at Jan 14, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
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#4


^^ And if it's like that, why would you call it minor dorian pentatonic? It's just minor pentatonic.
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jan 14, 2013,
Angusman60
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#5
Correct.
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91RG350
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#6
Just Google image search "Minor Pentatonic Scale"... thats what you are really looking for. Learn the positions in the pics and you'll be rockin' like Slash.

There's no "Dorian scale"...though no doubt a subsequent flame war will contain people who disagree.
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#7
Quote by Angusman60

EDIT: Whether one can call a pentatonic "Dorian" or not will depend on the context in which one is using it. ie: If one were to play D minor pentatonic over a ii chord is the key of C, it could be said that PARTS of the Dorian mode are being used.


It could also be said that you're playing the C major scale.
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#8
Quote by rockingamer2
There is no such thing as D minor dorian pentatonic.



congratulations, you saved me from an embolism

i think i pissed myself laughing, though
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evolucian
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#9
And here I was all excited and stuff cos I thought I was gonna learn something.


...fml
Angusman60
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#10
Well. You learned that mode doesn't exist.
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Angusman60
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#12
Please, explain.

EDIT: If you mean using a dorian mode reduced to 5 notes, then, yes you have a point. But, keep in mind that reducing a dorian mode to 5 notes that would retain the context of the mode would not be the same as the minor pentatonic.

EX:

D minor pentatonic:: D F G A C

Pentatonic derived from a reduction of D dorian:: D F G A B

They key here is the context. While the D minor Pentatonic (DMP) does contain notes of the D dorian mode, it does not contain the notes that are required to contextualize it as dorian on it's own.

On the other hand, the reduction I gave has a B natural, which is required for a mode to be D dorian, as a dorian mode must be a natural minor scale with a raised 6th degree.

In conclusion, yes, you can create a pentatonic scale that will fit the mode "dorian", however, it is a reduction, not the full mode.
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Last edited by Angusman60 at Jan 15, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
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#14
Quote by 91RG350
Just Google image search "Minor Pentatonic Scale"... thats what you are really looking for. Learn the positions in the pics and you'll be rockin' like Slash.

There's no "Dorian scale"...though no doubt a subsequent flame war will contain people who disagree.

Mode wars begin...

Why isn't there a dorian scale? If you explain it's just the mode of a C major scale, why is A minor considered as scale? I mean, A minor scale has the same notes as C major scale. It's only a mode of C major scale. And D dorian scale is much closer to D minor scale (in use) than it's to C major scale. What I mean by that is you would play D dorian scale over a progression in D minor, not over a progression in C major (because you would be playing C major scale in C major). Of course you could call it D minor scale with major 6th accidental...

And I know, modes and scales are useless blablabla... not
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Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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Charvel So Cal
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Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
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Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jan 15, 2013,
Angusman60
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#15
Look at my previous post, I explained it all....

But to answer your question. "Mode" is really an outdated way to categorize these groups of notes. It really depends on personal preference. It comes from the early church modes which were labeled before an established method of notation was adapted. That way, no matter what pitches the group was singing on, the monks knew which notes to sing by the marked "mode".
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evolucian
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#16
Thanks Angus, however, its not what you said.

Well. You learned that mode doesn't exist.


That says there is no Dorian mode, if I take the sentence/statement to read exactly as it is.
MaggaraMarine
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#17
Quote by Angusman60
Look at my previous post, I explained it all....

But to answer your question. "Mode" is really an outdated way to categorize these groups of notes. It really depends on personal preference. It comes from the early church modes which were labeled before an established method of notation was adapted. That way, no matter what pitches the group was singing on, the monks knew which notes to sing by the marked "mode".

Yes, I know that modes are really outdated and nobody makes that kind of music any more (or maybe somebody does). But why couldn't dorian be called a scale? Because today it's used like scale. The key is D minor, you could play the notes in D dorian over it.

Or was that a response to evolucian?
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Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
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Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jan 15, 2013,
evolucian
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#18
^ was a response to me. Although Hail answers them real well and in depth, much better than I ever can.
Angusman60
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#19
Haha, I wasn't meaning to say that exactly. Sorry, I had just woke up and was trying to be witty.
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Hail
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#20
is this how xiaoxi feels
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#21
I think you can refer to the "Dorian scale", much like the "blues scale" to explain the accidentals used. However in the example posed, D Dorian in the key of C major, it is pointless to use this term as you are simply playing the C major scale with no accidentals.
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#23
Quote by AlanHB
I think you can refer to the "Dorian scale", much like the "blues scale" to explain the accidentals. However in the example posed, D Dorian in the key of C major, it is pointless to use this term as you are simply playing the C major scale with no accidentals.


well at its root (no pun intended) a scale is nothing but a series of intervals. it can be anything you want it to be. it's a blank canvas. dorian as a qualifier just sets out 7 of these intervals.

the problem is when people are disillusioned by the priority of scales. since modes, functionally, are essentially a series of conventions that restrict themselves (with our current tonal system) to a very primitive realm of tonality, it's easy to call them obsolete, so we (I) do for the sake of ease. of course, there's merit in any form of music, and it'd be restricting to tell somebody to avoid something musical to learn (or, really, anything to learn). however, people get shaken by the duality of modes

since the modal system was incredibly simple, it's easy to define it, even in terms of conventions, as mostly a series of intervals that allowed for a certain sound and that designated a particular tonic, much like keys.

however, when you add in a modern palate that is familiar with strong cadence and complexity, it's very difficult to maintain that actual "feel" without being simply masturbatory to maintain the modes' sake

so that (rough) definition of a series of intervals, when taken out of context, leads us to 2 definitions of modes (ignoring the major/minor modes of keys - IE as used, nomenclaturally, in context with modal interchange, modulation - just, again, to keep things simple) wherein there's a series of intervals with an incredibly restricted (or potentially nonexistent) harmony that is essentially now (as i consider it) a genre of primitive tonality, as well as the minimalist interpretation of just a series of intervals - AKA a scale.

it's easy to get lost somewhere in here, as well, because of how the modes all relate to the major scale, particularly in the realm of guitar where shapes and fingerings potentially supersede sounds and conventions for many players. it becomes easy to say 'oh, yeah, these shapes just need to move around the root'. in a historically modal context, it actually can be that simplified provided the listener has an understanding of it in context (which they don't - of all the modes articles on here with tabs and videos of scales, how often do you actually hear any church hymns?) and an ability to internalize it and use those shapes accordingly.

however, since we naturally have "our" tonal system shoved into our brains at birth, without engrossing yourself in that music, you'll fall back into tonality. this is fine - you can create some interesting things with accidentals - but at this point you're deprioritizing keys

as i've said before and will say again: keys and scales are two separate entities. a scale will help solidify or suggest a key, especially for beginners, but within a key you can use any scale, series of scales/note, series of notes.

when you're talking about modes as a scale, they absolutely exist - but then we get to the quandary of the value of scales without a proper understanding of functional harmony.

when you're talking about modes as modes, they absolutely exist - but only for a very niche region of music that shouldn't be explored until you have a proper foundation because of the very confusion i'm talking about.

you can have music in the D dorian mode (although as Snoop Lion/Joseph would probably point out, you could still probably argue that it's just D minor in an incredibly simplistic setting, but it's semantics haha)

you can have music built off the D dorian scale - or, you could say, in the D dorian scale - but it's important to remember that that scale is going to be in a key (unless used in context as above). this is why we (I) emphasize the use of keys early on to understand a piece (unless the piece is simplistic enough - as in almost exclusively that scale - where the performer would benefit from the specificity, but again, semantics)

once i realized that all that music i was playing "in D dorian" was just in a key - and that that key had an incredible amount of openness, and that i could move around keys to greater effect as i please - i realized how simple theory actually is. that's why, typically, i steer people away from textbooks - if you can understand music in context, and realize how easy it is to manipulate through changing any little component, it's absolutely an open book to run with

if you just enjoy theory, there's nothing to lose from attacking that as well, but i always find it difficult to fathom the confusion associated with scales - particularly with the TS. there are 12 notes, each note can have a major or minor key. you can have as many keys as you want in a piece. the only rule is to make it sound good (or bad, if you're into the whole Dadaist/post-modernist kinda thing like me).

anything else is just overcomplicating things if you have to ask these kinds of questions about it

by the time you're able to analyze music properly, you won't need to ask for tabs.

my .02, idk
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