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#41
Quote by Mephaphil
Because a Strat is iconic, more so than any Super Strat. As cool as they are, they don't have the Hendrix, Clapton, Gilmour, Malmsteen, Beck, Eric Johnson factor.

Plus the tone, man. The tone.


U can get the Strat tone out of a SuperStrat, but a Strat simply is not ideal for metal. Re: the iconicness, Van Halen's FrankenStrat is more iconic than any standard Strat. When you see that guitar, you think of only one player, EVH. When you see a Strat you think of lots of players.

And SuperStrats have been played by most of the major players in the last 30 years: Vai, Satriani, Campbell, Batten, Sambora, Wooten, Sambora, Hatfield, Mustain, Morello, Friedman, Petrucci, Lynch, Bettencourt, Mars, & EVH, to mention just a few.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#42
Quote by LP1951
U can get the Strat tone out of a SuperStrat, but a Strat simply is not ideal for metal. Re: the iconicness, Van Halen's FrankenStrat is more iconic than any standard Strat. When you see that guitar, you think of only one player, EVH. When you see a Strat you think of lots of players.

And SuperStrats have been played by most of the major players in the last 30 years: Vai, Satriani, Campbell, Batten, Sambora, Wooten, Sambora, Hatfield, Mustain, Morello, Friedman, Petrucci, Lynch, Bettencourt, Mars, & EVH, to mention just a few.


umm... wouldn't the fact that many players come to mind make the strat more iconic. lets not make this topic into a strats vs super strats war. both are fine guitars with many uses.
#43
^Not that at all.

However, the fact that SuperStrats have been played by most of the major metal players in the last 30 years: Vai, Satriani, Campbell, Batten, Sambora, Wooten, Sambora, Hatfield, Mustain, Morello, Friedman, Petrucci, Lynch, Bettencourt, Mars, & EVH etc. must mean something. It stands to reason that SuperStrats are vastly superior to Strats for metal; and after all the topic is Strats for metal.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
Last edited by LP1951 at Jan 15, 2013,
#44
Quote by LP1951
^Not that at all.

However, the fact that SuperStrats have been played by most of the major players in the last 30 years: Vai, Satriani, Campbell, Batten, Sambora, Wooten, Sambora, Hatfield, Mustain, Morello, Friedman, Petrucci, Lynch, Bettencourt, Mars, & EVH etc. must mean something. It stands to reason that SuperStrats are vastly superior to Strats for metal; and after all the topic is Strats for metal.


There you go, imposing your opinion on everyone, again.

Strats can be ideal for metal. Metal doesn't always entail 6505 levels of gain .

Malmsteen, Maiden, Fast Eddie, Jake E Lee, Hammett, Tipton, KK Downing, Iommi, all played strats. The list goes on.

It means that they liked the tone THEY got from THAT guitar over a normal Strat. Doesn't mean they're superior. You can't say that an icon used the guitar, that means it's better. That doesn't make sense, at all. Also, you think of Van Halen for HIS guitar, not for the SuperStrat look.

Strats are great for metal. I use my Charvette S/S/S for metal all the time, especially Maiden. But they're not the best for br00tz

Also, spell Mustaine's name right next time.
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Last edited by Charvel1995 at Jan 15, 2013,
#45
I wouldn't use a Strat for rhythm guitars, but they have excellent lead sounds. They might well be the perfect guitar to cut through the mix during a solo, and they pinch harmonic with almost no effort at all.

That said, noise gate is practically a necessity.
#46
Quote by LP1951
Vai, Satriani, Campbell, Batten, Sambora, Wooten, Sambora, Hatfield, Mustain, Morello, Friedman, Petrucci, Lynch, Bettencourt, Mars, & EVH etc.

Ask most people what guitar John Petrucci plays and you'll be met with "who the **** is 'John Patrichinnici'?"
Ask most people what guitar Eric Clapton plays and nine out of ten will be able to say, at the very least, "that black and white one".

'Hatfield' and 'Mustain' sound like a coouple of shady chancers making sound-a-like karaoke albums.


Jesus ****, this thread.
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#48
Quote by LP1951
^That really doesn't answer the question. The point is that there are SuperStrats that will do everything that a standard Strat can do and do metal much better.


Man, you're so good at derailing threads with these kinds of statements.

Quote by LP1951
^Not that at all.

However, the fact that SuperStrats have been played by most of the major metal players in the last 30 years: Vai, Satriani, Campbell, Batten, Sambora, Wooten, Sambora, Hatfield, Mustain, Morello, Friedman, Petrucci, Lynch, Bettencourt, Mars, & EVH etc. must mean something. It stands to reason that SuperStrats are vastly superior to Strats for metal; and after all the topic is Strats for metal.



Sambora has a signature Fender Strat and Morello is famous for his Soul Power Strat.
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#49
The SuperStrat is iconic, most probably the FrankenStrat, but ask most people and they won't know it.

The Strat is the most popular guitar shape, which is why it's the most copied. It's just simply more iconic because it's been played by people who have been a lot more commercially successful using it.

That doesn't mean it's better or anything, but it's undeniably more popular in its unchanged form.

I find the Fender 'Quack' to be more or less unique to Fender. Others do it different, but Fender have their own, original tone.

To my ears anyway.
Quote by Shredwizard445
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Last edited by Mephaphil at Jan 15, 2013,
#50
Quote by MrFlibble
Jesus ****, this thread.

This is how I feel right now too. Especially now that we are talking about which guitars are "popular" or "iconic".
#51
Quote by monwobobbo
(a) hmmm.... well lets see just ask jeff beck what can be done with a non locking fender trem and get back to me. trem use isn't all about dive bombs ya know. a well setup fender style trem will stay in tune. (b) ok i admit that if you want to go all apeshit crazy with it then probably not but otherwise they do work. (c) van halen and hendrix both managed to write the book on trem use without a floyd.

(d) dave i play 70s and 80s metal and hard rock as well and my strats work fine for most of it. my Ultra 212 has anb active eq for the distortion channels and you'd be amazed at what kind of sounds can come out of strat using this. of course to each his own.


(a) agreed

(b) also agreed

(c) also agreed- but it's worth pointing out that eddie switched to the OFR about 4 minutes after it was released, so that might tell you something

(d) oh i agree- they can "do" it. My point is if that's the main stuff you're playing, other things will "do it" better.

I'd also point out i'm talking about vintage spec strats- vintage radius, small frets, 21 frets, low (5-6k resistance) output pickups, no tone control on the bridge pickup etc. A modern USA standard strat is closer to a superstrat than a vintage spec strat in spec, frankly, and I'm not really talking about strats like that (that's not to say you have a USA standard strat, you may well be doing what you do on a vintage spec strat, I'm just making the distinction because I think it's important).

Same with people who mention strats with humbuckers... they're (in effect, anyway) superstrats more than strats.

Quote by Mephaphil
Because a Strat is iconic, more so than any Super Strat. As cool as they are, they don't have the Hendrix, Clapton, Gilmour, Malmsteen, Beck, Eric Johnson factor.


eddie's frankenstrat is pretty iconic IMO. So are some of vai's jems or the green meanie, for that matter.

don't get me wrong- those old strats are awesome, too. But if you like superstrats they're just as iconic as strats.

Quote by monwobobbo
lets not make this topic into a strats vs super strats war. both are fine guitars with many uses.


agreed, and i'm certainly not trying to do that. both are awesome, and I have both.

I'm just concerned at people who are saying strats are fine for metal (with the usual current definition of what metal is- i'm well aware deep purple or led zep were considered metal in their day, but if a 14 year old kid who wants a guitar for metal comes along and sees this thread, they're probably not thinking of deep purple when they say "metal").
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#52
Quote by Dave_Mc


I'm just concerned at people who are saying strats are fine for metal (with the usual current definition of what metal is- i'm well aware deep purple or led zep were considered metal in their day, but if a 14 year old kid who wants a guitar for metal comes along and sees this thread, they're probably not thinking of deep purple when they say "metal").


I still see Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple under the metal section at Mom n Pop Shops.

They're still metal.
Main Rig:

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#53
I play a lot of thrash, and I have owned one or two strats in my time. Can a Strat do metal? Yes. Can others do it better? IMO yes.
Given the choice I don't think I would play Metallica (older stuff) or Slayer with a Strat unless it was modded.

As far as Strat VS. Super Strat. Who the hell cares? Grab which ever you prefer and play it like you own the world.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#54
Quote by Charvel1995
I still see Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple under the metal section at Mom n Pop Shops.

They're still metal.
Yes they are technically "metal", a term which means absolutely nothing unless you elaborate on what you're talking about because there is a wide variety of "metal" bands out there.

But I personally wouldn't go around telling people that I use "mom n pop" shops for a musical reference
#55
What's a Hatfeild?

If you meant Hetfield, he has never played a Super Strat?

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#56
Quote by W4RP1G
Yes they are technically "metal", a term which means absolutely nothing unless you elaborate on what you're talking about because there is a wide variety of "metal" bands out there.

But I personally wouldn't go around telling people that I use "mom n pop" shops for a musical reference


Mom n Pop wasn't exactly the right term.

But little shops that stock the good stuff you can't find in other places.
Main Rig:

Epiphone MKH Les Paul Custom 7 - Ronda
Ibanez RG8 "Scarlet" - AKA The Rambanez
Fender Strat "Danielle"/"Dani"
Line 6 POD HD Pro
Randall XL 4x12

Come join us...

Purchase list: Jim Root Tele, Jim Root Jazzmaster, MTM20
#57
Quote by Dave_Mc

eddie's frankenstrat is pretty iconic IMO. So are some of vai's jems or the green meanie, for that matter.

don't get me wrong- those old strats are awesome, too. But if you like superstrats they're just as iconic as strats.


Check two posts above yours my friend, I more or less already agreed with you.

EVH and Vai are of course iconic, as are their guitars, but some things have more of an iconic status.

Personally I think the Strat is the most iconic guitar, it's been played by the biggest artists, people who redefined popular music. And of course Eruption was massively important, but if you ask most people to identify a guitar they'll identify the Strat, the LP, the flying V. They might know that it's a type of strat but they won't know who EVH is, lots more will know Clapton and Hendrix. Hose iconic players played that guitar, which is why it's iconic. The bigger the star the bigger the icon.
Quote by Shredwizard445
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Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


#58
Yes they are technically "metal",


Remove "technically" please: just because things have changed in the genre doesn't mean they get kicked out of the genre.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#59
For the _______(I don't know the word, traditional? common?)____ modern metal sound, the gain stage of the Amp is more important than any part of the guitar.

If you have a 5150, you could play metal on a Gretsch.

Hurr durr, what you really need is a new amp.


EDIT: How come whenever one of these threads comes up, it's always winds up with the regulars arguing about how terms are described and what a term actually means?
Actually, I go by Dave, but there are already too many Daves on this forum.


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Last edited by kangaxxter at Jan 16, 2013,
#60
Quote by W4RP1G
Yes they are technically "metal", a term which means absolutely nothing unless you elaborate on what you're talking about because there is a wide variety of "metal" bands out there.

But I personally wouldn't go around telling people that I use "mom n pop" shops for a musical reference


ahahahaha

Quote by Mephaphil
Check two posts above yours my friend, I more or less already agreed with you.

EVH and Vai are of course iconic, as are their guitars, but some things have more of an iconic status.

Personally I think the Strat is the most iconic guitar, it's been played by the biggest artists, people who redefined popular music. And of course Eruption was massively important, but if you ask most people to identify a guitar they'll identify the Strat, the LP, the flying V. They might know that it's a type of strat but they won't know who EVH is, lots more will know Clapton and Hendrix. Hose iconic players played that guitar, which is why it's iconic. The bigger the star the bigger the icon.

yeah i wrote that before i saw your post

i'd say it's just more because more players played a strat. hendrix is probably the biggest guitar name (not everyone has heard of him either, mind), but evh is probably in the top group of really famous rock players too.

Quote by dannyalcatraz
Remove "technically" please: just because things have changed in the genre doesn't mean they get kicked out of the genre.


i agree. at the same time, though, when most people talk about metal tone (or we could call it "modern metal tone" if that helps), they're not talking about deep purple or led zep tones. Heck I've heard motley crue described as "classic rock" on the radio, lol, if motley crue is classic rock then led zep and deep purple certainly are
Quote by kangaxxter
For the _______(I don't know the word, traditional? common?)____ modern metal sound, the gain stage of the Amp is more important than any part of the guitar.

If you have a 5150, you could play metal on a Gretsch.

Hurr durr, what you really need is a new amp.


EDIT: How come whenever one of these threads comes up, it's always winds up with the regulars arguing about how terms are described and what a term actually means?


the amp's more important, but i'd say the guitar is pretty important too, certainly once you have the amp.
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#61
I've heard motley crue described as "classic rock" on the radio, lol, if motley crue is classic rock then led zep and deep purple certainly are


Classic Rock is a radio format, not a genre, IMHO. One of the biggest classic rock stations here in Dallas plays U2, Simple Minds, and other bands of that ilk alongside Crüe & Purple...and the occasional Metallica.

(Besides, I don't feel like buying a computer program to start drawing Venn Diagrams for music & bands to post here...)
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Jan 16, 2013,
#62
oh i agree- i'm not saying i agree with them

i'm just saying it's important to be mindful of what people think things are so that you don't make them get the wrong end of the stick, that's all.

I probably shouldn't say, "strats can do metal" to little-Timmy-who's-thinking-of-taking-up-guitar when I consider deep purple metal, when I know Timmy considers killswitch engage to be metal. That's all I meant.
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#63
In a way, Classic Rock does seem like a silly term. Once is was Rock/Metal/Punk. Now it's pushed into the 'Dad Rock' category just because other music has moved away from that.

If Led Zeppelin were metal, they are still metal. They didn't change, everything else did.

If you go on that logic bands that we call Metal today are surely something else and should be referred to by their sub genre of Metal more often than they are and not as Metal. (Still with me? I'm lost )

What I mean is; Led Zeppelin are at the top of the genre, then all the sub genres fall underneath it and just because music changed, it doesn't mean that the original use of the term Metal is obsolete.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


Last edited by Mephaphil at Jan 16, 2013,
#64
Quote by Mephaphil
In a way, Classic Rock does seem like a silly term. Once is was Rock/Metal/Punk. Now it's pushed into the 'Dad Rock' category just because other music has moved away from that.

If Led Zeppelin were metal, they are still metal. They didn't change, everything else did.

If you go on that logic bands that we call Metal today are surely something else and should be referred to by their sub genre of Metal more often than they are and not as Metal. (Still with me? I'm lost )

What I mean is; Led Zeppelin are at the top of the genre, then all the sub genres fall underneath it and just because music changed, it doesn't mean that the original use of the term Metal is obsolete.


i agree.

that being said, those different subgenres (or even the overall genre) are important in terms of what gear is suitable for them. it doesn't matter if radio gets the genre wrong, it's not hurting anyone... it is doing people harm if we recommend the wrong gear for that genre.

EDIT: that's why any time someone says, "recommend me something for metal" (or any genre) we normally ask exactly what they mean by that genre, we ask them to list some bands.
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Last edited by Dave_Mc at Jan 16, 2013,
#65
Led Zeppelin is not metal and never was (they don't even want to be considered as metal). Calling them metal is an insult. They have only one metal song that is Achilles Last Stand. They are more blues, funk, rock, folk, country and pop than metal. And Led Zeppelin was originally a blues band. The guitar sound just isn't metal enough IMO (it's pretty near to clean sound).

But really, genres suck. And I think the listener defines what metal is. To me LZ is definitely not metal. Also the listener defines what a metal sound is. I wouldn't recommend a SSS Strat for metal because I don't see the twangy Strat sound as metal sound. It might sound good for leads but for that chugga chugga thing it's not what I would call an ideal metal sound. So why buy a SSS Strat when you can get better metal tones out of Superstrats? A Strat can do metal but some guitars can do metal better.
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#66
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Led Zeppelin is not metal and never was (they don't even want to be considered as metal). Calling them metal is an insult. They have only one metal song that is Achilles Last Stand. They are more blues, funk, rock, folk, country and pop than metal. And Led Zeppelin was originally a blues band. The guitar sound just isn't metal enough IMO (it's pretty near to clean sound).

But really, genres suck. And I think the listener defines what metal is. To me LZ is definitely not metal. Also the listener defines what a metal sound is. I wouldn't recommend a SSS Strat for metal because I don't see the twangy Strat sound as metal sound. It might sound good for leads but for that chugga chugga thing it's not what I would call an ideal metal sound. So why buy a SSS Strat when you can get better metal tones out of Superstrats? A Strat can do metal but some guitars can do metal better.


Metal started off as blues rock and got heavier.

There's nothing wrong with calling Zeppelin a metal band. Their sound isn't consistently clean, they dirty it up all the time. Black Sabbath was originally a blues-rock style band too, so what's your point? Had Tony Iommi not been involved in a factory accident, I can see them still being that way today.

By chugga chugga, you mean -core bands. Chugga chugga isn't limited to metal, you are aware of that. Hardcore/punk bands do it, even pop-punk bands do it. Way to stereotype metal as "chugga chugga" by the way. Good on ya. Metal isn't all chugga chugga, nor is that the ideal metal sound.

Why should I buy a Super Strat when I can get a Strat?

Also, the quote in your sig, and your gear contradict one another.
Main Rig:

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Line 6 POD HD Pro
Randall XL 4x12

Come join us...

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#67
Quote by Charvel1995
Metal started off as blues rock and got heavier.


well no shit, but i mean cars started off with the wheel and if someone tells me they want a car I don't suggest they buy a wheelbarrow for that same reason...

this is just getting silly.

Genres are stupid. Agreed, to a certain extent.

They're not stupid if you're trying to get suitable gear for that genre. We can argue till the cows come home about whether led zep and killswitch engage are metal, but i need pretty different gear for those two tones. differentiating based on the guitar tones needed isn't actually that silly.

can (vintage spec) strats do metal? Sure, in a pinch.

does that mean they're ideal for metal? no.
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#68
Quote by Dave_Mc
well no shit, but i mean cars started off with the wheel and if someone tells me they want a car I don't suggest they buy a wheelbarrow for that same reason...


My point was that it was considered metal back then, so why are we no longer classifying it as metal.

Popular music of the 1980's is still pop music, just not the pop we're used to.

Zep and Sabbath are still metal, just not our metal.
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#69
yep, and i appreciate that, and even agree to a certain extent, but at the same time categorising things just generally makes it easier. especially if you're talking about guitar tones and gear.
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#70
Quote by kangaxxter
For the _______(I don't know the word, traditional? common?)____ modern metal sound, the gain stage of the Amp is more important than any part of the guitar.

If you have a 5150, you could play metal on a Gretsch.

Hurr durr, what you really need is a new amp.


EDIT: How come whenever one of these threads comes up, it's always winds up with the regulars arguing about how terms are described and what a term actually means?

Tell me about it. This thread has become one big clusterfuck.
Quote by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
#71
Quote by Charvel1995
My point was that it was considered metal back then, so why are we no longer classifying it as metal.

Popular music of the 1980's is still pop music, just not the pop we're used to.

Zep and Sabbath are still metal, just not our metal.


totally agree except of course being an old geezer they were my metal . been doing the metal thing since the beginning and all that has happend is that teh music evolved. metal is all about being heavy. zep and purple were heavy for their time just as the current bands are heavy for now. same idea. hell i remember buying the 1st Montrose album and thinking holy shit this is so heavy can't even imagine something being much heavier (except sabbath of course). times change and so does metal
#72
Personally I would classify Led Zep as blues rock. But that's based on my current interpretation which is influenced heavily by the music we have today. If they were classed as metal back in the day then that's what they are, metal. But they were still a rock & roll band.

Quote by Alucard817
Tell me about it. This thread has become one big clusterfuck.


We're having some nice discussions about the origin of metal. It's the perfect thread!
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


Last edited by Mephaphil at Jan 16, 2013,
#73
As somewhat of a geezer myself, I always thought of Led Zep to be about as heavy hard rock could get without being heavy metal, with Deep Purple straddling the line, and Black Sabbath as being truly the first heavy metal band.

My $0.02.
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Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#74
Quote by kangaxxter
EDIT: How come whenever one of these threads comes up, it's always winds up with the regulars arguing about how terms are described and what a term actually means?

It was inevitable here, since "metal" can be interpreted many different ways. It's kind of annoying, but the conversation simply can't progress if everyone is talking about something different. Unfortunately, it still hasn't progressed

Quote by dannyalcatraz
Remove "technically" please: just because things have changed in the genre doesn't mean they get kicked out of the genre.


No, they are technically metal. They shouldn't be kicked out of the genre, but they should be differentiated from other forms of metal with which they share little in common. Sub-genres exist for a reason, and in this case they help quite a bit. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly where Zep falls, except for "classic rock"(which used to be rock from one era when I was growing up), but to just call them metal is needlessly confusing.
Last edited by W4RP1G at Jan 16, 2013,
#75
Quote by W4RP1G
It was inevitable here, since "metal" can be interpreted many different ways. It's kind of annoying, but the conversation simply can't progress if everyone is talking about something different. Unfortunately, it still hasn't progressed



Exactly, the dog started chasing its tail on the 2nd page. I did the think the iconic guitar discussion was interesting however.
“You’re always learning about this thing every time you pick it up.” Keith Richards
#76
Quote by dannyalcatraz
As somewhat of a geezer myself, I always thought of Led Zep to be about as heavy hard rock could get without being heavy metal, with Deep Purple straddling the line, and Black Sabbath as being truly the first heavy metal band.

My $0.02.


well actually i think you'll find that Blue Cheer predated sabbath and their first album is still pretty heavy even by todays standards. a nod can be given to the MC5 as well. as for zep and purple well even back in the day there were those who debated whether they were or not.
#77
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#78
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#80
While Blue Cheer does predate Zep, DP & Sab, I put them on the Zep side of the line: heavy, but not metal.

As for:

No, they are technically metal.


Linguistically, people usually use modifiers like "technically" to classify something as just barely qualifying for the classification that follows.

But, IMHO, a band like Sab that is a cornerstone of the genre as a whole cannot be marginalized with such rhetorical tricks. They ARE metal, no "technically" qualifier required.

(For the logicians out there, they would lie near the center of the Venn Diagram circle labeled "Heavy Metal".)
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Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Jan 16, 2013,