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白い雲
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#1
D/F# - G - Bm - E - G - D/F# - Bm - Bm

Analyzed as being in B minor:

III (1st inversion) - VI - i - IV - VI - III (1st inversion) - i - i

The main problem is that pesky IV chord. In natural minor, it would be iv. If the passage was B dorian, the VI chords would be vi diminished chords. No matter how you cut it, the passage contains mostly G naturals, and one G#. If you play this on your guitar, that G# really gives the passage power. So, what's the deal? The melodic minor ascending explanation doesn't work either, because there isn't an A# for the G# to go to in the next chord.

This is the first (and last) 8 bars of a piece called Yokan from the Evangelion (anime) soundtrack. The song's on youtube, and you can also find the sheet music with a google search, but I can't post them here. I think that E major chord sounds great, but I don't understand why. Maybe someone knowledgeable in jazz theory would know? Thanks!
Last edited by 白い雲 at Jan 15, 2013,
白い雲
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#3
So, just a very brief mode mixture? I think my theory book (Tonal Harmony, Kostka and Payne) confused me on this by saying that the only note that minor can borrow from major is the major 3rd scale degree. (Because the raised 6 and 7 are part of harmonic and melodic minor). EXCEPT WHEN THEY"RE NOT. haha
z4twenny
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#4
It has nothing to do with modes. I suggest you go back and learn your harmony. While I haven't heard the song I'd wager that the g# in the e major chord is a necessity for supporting the melody.

edit : just listened, it's supporting the melody like I thought.
Last edited by z4twenny at Jan 15, 2013,
白い雲
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#5
"Mode mixture" is an unfortunate name that some theory people use to describe a minor chord progression borrowing a chord from the parallel major, or vice versa. It's really got nothing to do with modes per se, I agree. It's just a specific type of borrowed chords.
白い雲
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#6
Supporting the melody is also ruled out, unfortunately. The only melody to speak of at this point in the song is a series of arpeggios that end on half notes, and the G# isn't in these arpeggios at all, just the chords behind them (and the following arpeggio doesn't have an A or A#).
z4twenny
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#7
^ I don't know who those "some people" are but they're wrong lol, its called borrowing a chord and has nothing at all to do with modes. Just like any other chord its placed where it to provide harmony to the melody.

And its obviously there to support the melody, the melody doesn't have to have a g# in it . Go back to and start over with music theory man, you missed some important stuff it sounds like.
Last edited by z4twenny at Jan 15, 2013,
白い雲
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#8
Those some people are Kostka and Payne, who wrote my (fairly well respected) theory textbook. I'm not trying to show you up; I think it's dumb too, but it's out there..

Telling me to go back to the beginning doesn't help anything. I'm the most proficient person I know in theory other thank my teachers, and I teach it too. I think you're underestimating my ability. If you can give me a specific pointer, ok. Maybe I missed something?
Last edited by 白い雲 at Jan 15, 2013,
z4twenny
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#9
They can be well respected and use inaccurate terminology to describe what's going on musically. I still suggest you go back to basics. No condescension inferred but try music theory for dummies (or maybe its the complete idiots guide to music theory) I keep a copy of it around and its a pretty easy read and really a good start if you do the exercises. If anything ever led you to think music theory is made up of rules then you're already in the wrong mindset. Theory simply describes why music sounds the way it does.
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#11
Anyone else?

I agree with this:
Quote by z4twenny
E is a borrowed chord from B major
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jazz_rock_feel
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#12
Mode mixture is (one of) the proper term(s) and tons of theorists use it. In textbook classical harmony you'll hear mode mixture more often than you'll hear borrowed chord. They're referring to mixing the major and minor modes (major and minor keys, basically).

The E major (or any major IV in minor) is modal mixture/primary mixture/mixture/a borrowed chord.
z4twenny
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#13
^ I've read a couple books and have never run across that term, any suggestions on some sources that might have it? I'm all for a different objective perspective if there's one to be had.
Last edited by z4twenny at Jan 15, 2013,
jazz_rock_feel
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#14
The aforementioned Kostka, I'm almost positive Piston uses it, the for-some-reason-published-textbook-that-only-my-university-out-of-every-university-in-the-world-uses Harmony through Melody uses it, and I had another one in mind, but I've forgotten what it's called.

In any case, it's not really a big deal. It's just another term for borrowed chords that some theorists use. The important thing is that they're primarily using modes in the sense of major/minor modes, not in the sense of "i lyk phrygian b9 dominant B7 69 lel."
z4twenny
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#15
^ yeah I get that, I'll check out that kostka and Ive flipped through parts of pistons harmony years ago but don't recall seeing it. The reason I've got an issue with the naming convention is its not REALLY modal in the general sense. I'm curious what their explanation for the naming would be.
20Tigers
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#16
Their reason for naming it that way is because they define modes as a collection of notes arranged in a scale form that form the basic tonal substance of a piece of music. Thus the key of C major defines the key centre as C and the "mode" as major.

While the term "modes" can also be used to describe the church modes specifically, it is commonly accepted that the only two modes used in Western Music over the last 200+ years are the major and minor modes, with the odd rare exception.

Hence when your key centre is C but you are mixing major and minor they call it "mode mixture". Nothing to do with the church modes though and because the church modes are relatively rare they are not often discussed or enter the thought process. That said they are also not frowned upon or despised or avoided but used in the appropriate setting.

In the context of MT however, and with guitar players in general, the term mode usually refers specifically to the church modes. In doing so it is so widely abused and misused that it results in some understandably ill feelings toward any reference to, or use of the word "mode".

At least that's how I understand the state of the situation.
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#17
Yeah my understanding of it is that "mode" in this case simply refers to major key vs. minor key. It has nothing to do with modal music.
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AeolianWolf
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#18
Quote by 20Tigers
Their reason for naming it that way is because they define modes as a collection of notes arranged in a scale form that form the basic tonal substance of a piece of music. Thus the key of C major defines the key centre as C and the "mode" as major.


+1.

Quote by 20Tigers
While the term "modes" can also be used to describe the church modes specifically, it is commonly accepted that the only two modes used in Western Music over the last 200+ years are the major and minor modes, with the odd rare exception.


and it's an extremely valid (and possibly superior) argument that they aren't even being used as modes at all.

Quote by 20Tigers
Hence when your key centre is C but you are mixing major and minor they call it "mode mixture". Nothing to do with the church modes though and because the church modes are relatively rare they are not often discussed or enter the thought process. That said they are also not frowned upon or despised or avoided but used in the appropriate setting.


+1.
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chronowarp
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#19
Quote by z4twenny
^ yeah I get that, I'll check out that kostka and Ive flipped through parts of pistons harmony years ago but don't recall seeing it. The reason I've got an issue with the naming convention is its not REALLY modal in the general sense. I'm curious what their explanation for the naming would be.

You should really think harder before being a giant dick to a dude that's...using the correct terminology.
z4twenny
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#21
Quote by chronowarp
You should really think harder before being a giant dick to a dude that's...using the correct terminology.

Think harder about what?

In fact re-read the thread from the beginning. Errant nomenclature aside I stand by everything I said. In fact maybe you missed the back and forth where I asked someone to explain why modal mixture was used since nothing modal is occurring and the answer I got was more or less "well thats the term someone decided to use"
Last edited by z4twenny at Jan 16, 2013,
Angusman60
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#22
Quote by z4twenny
^ I don't know who those "some people" are but they're wrong lol, its called borrowing a chord and has nothing at all to do with modes. Just like any other chord its placed where it to provide harmony to the melody.

And its obviously there to support the melody, the melody doesn't have to have a g# in it . Go back to and start over with music theory man, you missed some important stuff it sounds like.



"some people" were enough for it to be in the Wikipedia article of borrowed chords. Lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borrowed_chord


I believe that this is in D major. The E is used as a chromatic mediant to lead back to the G, which is then used to facilitate a plagal cadence with D, then it simply ends on the vi.
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mdc
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#23
Quote by 白い雲
D/F# - G - Bm - E - G - D/F# - Bm - Bm

Analyzed as being in B minor:

III (1st inversion) - VI - i - IV - VI - III (1st inversion) - i - i

The main problem is that pesky IV chord. In natural minor, it would be iv. If the passage was B dorian, the VI chords would be vi diminished chords. No matter how you cut it, the passage contains mostly G naturals, and one G#. If you play this on your guitar, that G# really gives the passage power. So, what's the deal? The melodic minor ascending explanation doesn't work either, because there isn't an A# for the G# to go to in the next chord.

This is the first (and last) 8 bars of a piece called Yokan from the Evangelion (anime) soundtrack. The song's on youtube, and you can also find the sheet music with a google search, but I can't post them here. I think that E major chord sounds great, but I don't understand why. Maybe someone knowledgeable in jazz theory would know? Thanks!

Nice song, dude, I like that sort of music. Just transcribing myself.
白い雲
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#24
Quote by Angusman60
I believe that this is in D major. The E is used as a chromatic mediant to lead back to the G, which is then used to facilitate a plagal cadence with D, then it simply ends on the vi.


I think you might be on to something here with the chromatic mediant relationships. To my ears the progression doesn't quite feel at home in D, though. After mulling this over for a while, I had this idea, maybe you can tell me what you think?

The first 5 chords are a sequence. D/F# to G is a standard circle of fifths movement. The G to Bm is a diatonic mediant relationship (up a third). The Bminor then goes to the next step in the circle of fifths, e, but it's chromatically altered to E major, to lead back to G (a chromatic mediant relationship, as you said). Now, the sequence stops, and instead of G continuing on to C#, it goes to D/F#, which moves smoothly into Bm through common tones.

There are a couple problems here though. III6 to i isn't much of a cadence, even if the bass does move down by a 5th to the root. Also, I don't really have an explanation for why the G would go to D/F#. I like the idea of it being a plagal cadence, but the following, restful-sounding Bm chord (2 bar duration) undermines any sort of D major cadence. Maybe G is acting as a secondary subdominant of D (if that's possible)? I've only thought of chromatic mediant relationships as being a modulatory technique before, but who's to say it can't also work in a sequence as a sort of tonicization? Or, maybe I'm treating these ideas too freely..

Anyway, I'm trying to understand this through analysis, and what I'm hearing. I picked this sequence idea because it could have continued on with the same sound (to me) and ended in any key, and because I'm hearing the descending fifths as the primary harmonic motion in the first 5 chords, followed by a kind of sinking towards Bm.
Last edited by 白い雲 at Jan 16, 2013,
白い雲
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#25
Quote by mdc
Nice song, dude, I like that sort of music. Just transcribing myself.


I know, right? It's a great song. Since you like that, you might also like "The Sandy Beach of Ganbo" (also on youtube). The instrumentation isn't as nice, and there's no guitar, but it has a similar sound (and more juicy chords).
Last edited by 白い雲 at Jan 16, 2013,
chronowarp
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#26
Quote by z4twenny
Think harder about what?

In fact re-read the thread from the beginning. Errant nomenclature aside I stand by everything I said. In fact maybe you missed the back and forth where I asked someone to explain why modal mixture was used since nothing modal is occurring and the answer I got was more or less "well thats the term someone decided to use"

You're sitting here telling a guy to "go back to basics" SOLELY because he used a term that you didn't like - a term that's featured and standard in a plethora of CPP theory books that are used at the university level.

...really?

It sounds like that hyper-reactionary knee jerk response to the word "mode" has clouded your critical thinking skills and humility.
Last edited by chronowarp at Jan 17, 2013,
AeolianWolf
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#27
Quote by 白い雲
Telling me to go back to the beginning doesn't help anything. I'm the most proficient person I know in theory other thank my teachers, and I teach it too. I think you're underestimating my ability.


that's meaningless here. and, frankly, if you don't understand where a major subdominant chord comes from in a minor key, i'm not convinced of your "proficiency" at all. that's not even a knock, just a completely objective observation.

Quote by Angusman60
"some people" were enough for it to be in the Wikipedia article of borrowed chords. Lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borrowed_chord


brb while i go edit the martin luther king page to say that he was struck and killed on april 4, 1968 by an errant burrito traveling 357 mph to establish the fact that "some people" think that this happened

an extreme example, perhaps, but the point still stands - anybody can edit wikipedia. if i went there right now and edited out all of the instances of the word "mode mixture", it would go largely unnoticed.

i'll second 20T's post again because it deals with precisely why it's called "mode mixture". what we know as major and minor are modes.

how we use them, however, is a very different story.
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Angusman60
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#28
Quote by 白い雲
I think you might be on to something here with the chromatic mediant relationships. To my ears the progression doesn't quite feel at home in D, though. After mulling this over for a while, I had this idea, maybe you can tell me what you think?

The first 5 chords are a sequence. D/F# to G is a standard circle of fifths movement. The G to Bm is a diatonic mediant relationship (up a third). The Bminor then goes to the next step in the circle of fifths, e, but it's chromatically altered to E major, to lead back to G (a chromatic mediant relationship, as you said). Now, the sequence stops, and instead of G continuing on to C#, it goes to D/F#, which moves smoothly into Bm through common tones.

There are a couple problems here though. III6 to i isn't much of a cadence, even if the bass does move down by a 5th to the root. Also, I don't really have an explanation for why the G would go to D/F#. I like the idea of it being a plagal cadence, but the following, restful-sounding Bm chord (2 bar duration) undermines any sort of D major cadence. Maybe G is acting as a secondary subdominant of D (if that's possible)? I've only thought of chromatic mediant relationships as being a modulatory technique before, but who's to say it can't also work in a sequence as a sort of tonicization? Or, maybe I'm treating these ideas too freely..

Anyway, I'm trying to understand this through analysis, and what I'm hearing. I picked this sequence idea because it could have continued on with the same sound (to me) and ended in any key, and because I'm hearing the descending fifths as the primary harmonic motion in the first 5 chords, followed by a kind of sinking towards Bm.


I think you are on to something, too. But I have the same problems you do. Are there any other chord changes after the Bm? If there are, we could determine whether the progression is modulatory or not.
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chronowarp
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#29
Quote by AeolianWolf
that's meaningless here. and, frankly, if you don't understand where a major subdominant chord comes from in a minor key, i'm not convinced of your "proficiency" at all. that's not even a knock, just a completely objective observation.


brb while i go edit the martin luther king page to say that he was struck and killed on april 4, 1968 by an errant burrito traveling 357 mph to establish the fact that "some people" think that this happened

an extreme example, perhaps, but the point still stands - anybody can edit wikipedia. if i went there right now and edited out all of the instances of the word "mode mixture", it would go largely unnoticed.

i'll second 20T's post again because it deals with precisely why it's called "mode mixture". what we know as major and minor are modes.

how we use them, however, is a very different story.

...what does it matter that you can erroneously edit a wiki article?
Angusman60
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#30
^^ That'll open a can of worms.
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chronowarp
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#31
Google "mode mixture", or find a digital copy of a some university level theory books...Read tonal harmony by Kostka & Payne...

And wikipedia is surprisingly reliable and accurate on almost all music theory related subjects.
Angusman60
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#32
Quote by chronowarp
Google "mode mixture", or find a digital copy of a some university level theory books...Read tonal harmony by Kostka & Payne...

And wikipedia is surprisingly reliable and accurate on almost all music theory related subjects.

YES! Thank you for using a source.
I think we should start demanding everybody cites a source when outright calling someone wrong.
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Angusman60
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#34
Shrimp sauce? A1 Sauce? Or do you simply wish to get saucy?
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AeolianWolf
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#35
Quote by chronowarp
...what does it matter that you can erroneously edit a wiki article?


come on, i know you're intelligent enough to see the obvious glaring relevance here. don't make yourself look bad.
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白い雲
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#37
Quote by AeolianWolf
frankly, if you don't understand where a major subdominant chord comes from in a minor key, i'm not convinced of your "proficiency" at all. that's not even a knock, just a completely objective observation.


Well, whatever. Ultimately, I don't really care about who's proficient and who isn't. If you have an explanation for this progression though, please enlighten me.
白い雲
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#38
Quote by Angusman60
Are there any other chord changes after the Bm? If there are, we could determine whether the progression is modulatory or not.


Yeah, after the Bm, there's a double bar line, and a new section starts, with these chords (1 bar duration for each):

GM9-G-F#m7-Bm9
GM9-F#m7-A/B-B9
Em9-F#m9-GM9-C9
Bm9-A6-Em9-G/A

After this there's another double bar line, and a third section:

DM7-D9-GM9-Gm6
F#m7-Bm7-Em7-G/A
DM7-D9-GM9-Gm6

2 chords per bar:
F#m7-Bm7-Em7-G/A

1 chord per bar:
G/A

That's the end of this section (double bar line), which is followed by:

2 bars per chord:

DM7-FM7-DM9-FM7 (Double bar line)

Then it's back to the second section (first one I have chords for on this reply), third section, and it's all wrapped up with the 8 chords I posted at the start of the thread.
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#39
Quote by 白い雲
Well, whatever. Ultimately, I don't really care about who's proficient and who isn't. If you have an explanation for this progression though, please enlighten me.


if you don't care, then don't bring up the fact that you're the most proficient person you know. it's meaningless here and makes you seem like you think you're the shit (which is also meaningless here).

explanations have been presented. you have your borrowed chord theory and your chromatic mediant theory. both can effectively describe a IV in this case. you can also think of it as a chromatic alteration. i personally wouldn't in this example, but there's no valid reason why you couldn't analyze it as such. use whichever you please.
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白い雲
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#40
Hey guys, I posted this over at jazzguitar.be (great forum!), and I think I've gotten an explanation that makes the most sense. The Bm chord is a common chord between D major/B minor and A major. Bm to E would be a ii-V progression in A major. There isn't a resolution to A, but that doesn't really matter, if you look at this from a jazz theory standpoint. ii-V-I and even ii-V progressions are so common that the ear accepts them without the I. So, it's a short tonicization of A. Here's an example of unresolved ii-V progressions in jazz:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2cr6n15.png