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ch1ng_chung
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Join date: May 2012
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#1
So, I'm gonna get right to the meat of it. Been playing 2 and a half years, this summer I just learned all the modes and could play them off the top of my head, in my sleep, and could "see" all the degrees of the scale and even other scales that would fit nicely in with the key and scale in my head. I could connect them semi-perfectly, and I could switch different modes of different keys and make it sound really nice. And that's after 2 weeks of practice, before which I completely disregarded modes as dangerous Jazz territory.

Today, I felt like improv with modes, so I tried, but I found out that I didn't even remember the modes. I had to spend freaking 3 hours re-learning how to "see" the modes, the corresponding scales, and the degrees, and so far all I have down is playing the right mode shapes and seeing some degrees. Something is clearly wrong here. People should not forget stuff this easily, especially not guitar, and I should not have to sit down and revise my information every damn day just to remember what the hell a mode is.

Look at those people, Eric Johnson, Guthrie Govan, Malmsteen, Friedman, Becker, when's the last time any one of them seriously sat down and played through the modes...

"Alright EJ, you got this, alright, you gotta play through this, alright here we go! An Ionian, Dorian! Phagarian! Lydian! Mixolocrian! Aeolian! Locrain!"

In fact, when's the damn last time ANY one of them even practiced a scale? Johnson doesn't ever practice scales; I can tell from his playing, and Govan doesn't even need to practice scales, he somehow has managed to memorize every note on the fretboard in his head and play it. I have no idea how Friedman remembers all his weird Egyptian scales, but it's obviously not through repetitive repetition because he's a pro.

Now that I've discounted practicing the modes over and over as a method for the weak willed, how the hell do you memorize these modes? It took me a whole f**king 2 weeks to learn this, and I forget it when the season changes? Ridiculous.
sea`
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Join date: Sep 2007
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#2
Learn the modes individually and then connect them into the major scale across the whole neck. Do a bit of improvising for a few weeks and you will find yourself moving up and down the neck constantly. It's by far the easiest and best way to break out of the "minor pentatonic box".

Once your ear is trained you won't even need to pay attention to where notes are located, you'll simply be able to know by ear what interval comes next, or where to find the root. If you ever get lost, it's never hard to go back to familiar territory, and if you practice you can get to the point where if you ever do make a mistake, play a wrong note, etc. you can cover it up immediately in a way that is organic and even sounds good (i.e. turn it into a chromatic idea).
Last edited by sea` at Jan 15, 2013,
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#3
Quote by ch1ng_chung


"Alright EJ, you got this, alright, you gotta play through this, alright here we go! An Ionian, Dorian! Phagarian! Lydian! Mixolocrian! Aeolian! Locrain!"



Wow I gotta be honest and say i've never even heard of a few of those "scales" so there's a good chance your better then I am. That being said I use to try all that scale stuff and beyond the basics it was just giving me a ****ing headache. You should stop stressing about at least for a bit and try to learn more by ear.

Mentioning Marty Freidman you should watch this video if you haven't seen it (I watched it many many times) At first I thought it wasn't much help and just got frustrated but if you really take the effort to understand what he is trying to explain it can be helpful. It was for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSaTAGsIBEI
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#4
Quote by ch1ng_chung
So, I'm gonna get right to the meat of it. Been playing 2 and a half years, this summer I just learned all the modes and could play them off the top of my head, in my sleep, and could "see" all the degrees of the scale and even other scales that would fit nicely in with the key and scale in my head. I could connect them semi-perfectly, and I could switch different modes of different keys and make it sound really nice. And that's after 2 weeks of practice, before which I completely disregarded modes as dangerous Jazz territory.

Today, I felt like improv with modes, so I tried, but I found out that I didn't even remember the modes. I had to spend freaking 3 hours re-learning how to "see" the modes, the corresponding scales, and the degrees, and so far all I have down is playing the right mode shapes and seeing some degrees. Something is clearly wrong here. People should not forget stuff this easily, especially not guitar, and I should not have to sit down and revise my information every damn day just to remember what the hell a mode is.

Look at those people, Eric Johnson, Guthrie Govan, Malmsteen, Friedman, Becker, when's the last time any one of them seriously sat down and played through the modes...

"Alright EJ, you got this, alright, you gotta play through this, alright here we go! An Ionian, Dorian! Phagarian! Lydian! Mixolocrian! Aeolian! Locrain!"

In fact, when's the damn last time ANY one of them even practiced a scale? Johnson doesn't ever practice scales; I can tell from his playing, and Govan doesn't even need to practice scales, he somehow has managed to memorize every note on the fretboard in his head and play it. I have no idea how Friedman remembers all his weird Egyptian scales, but it's obviously not through repetitive repetition because he's a pro.

Now that I've discounted practicing the modes over and over as a method for the weak willed, how the hell do you memorize these modes? It took me a whole f**king 2 weeks to learn this, and I forget it when the season changes? Ridiculous.

If you spend 2 weeks learning a "scale" and then forget it, you probably shouldn't worry too much about it anyway, since you weren't even using it enough to remember it.

Also, did you ever consider that maybe all those guitarists you listed are just naturally better than you? You might never be anywhere near as good as those guys, even if you practiced as much them and used every exercise they used. Such is life. Some people are just extraordinary at somethings.
MrFlibble
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#5
I'm someone who is inherently poor at remembering sequences. Scales, dates, math formulas, whatever, I'm crap at 'em all.
The way I tricked myself into actually remembering scales was to break them down into pieces of songs. I finally memorised the G Major and E Minor scales by playing Wonderful Tonight, Little Wing and Knockin' On Heaven's Door; I don't 'see' the scales as scales, I see them as a collection of phrases and riffs from several versions of those songs.

It's very lazy and a terrible habit for anyone that can actually remember scales and theory properly, but for those of us that can't get a grasp on these things to save our lives, remembering things at least by context is better than not remembering them at all.

I wouldn't advise anyone gives up on learning music 'properly', but if you get to a point like me where you're five years in and still can't point to a fret on the fretboard and name what note it is right away, chances are you may be best off taking the lazy way out
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Dayn
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#6
How did you learn them, and how do you apply them? When I play the major scale on my guitar, I don't think boxes. I think 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, the scale degrees. I know what patterns the unison, minor and major second, minor and major third, perfect fourth, tritone, perfect fifth, minor and major sixth, minor and major seventh, and the octave all take. If you give me a set of scale degrees, I can play that scale perfectly the first time anywhere on the neck in any key.

I would say to learn different ways to play each interval. I'd say learn them in this order: 1, 8, 5, 4; then 3, 7 and 6; then b3, b7 and b6. And b5. Once you learn the major scale as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, you'll know lydian dominant will be 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 and can play it instantly; you just alter a few notes of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. And so on and so forth for any scale you can think of. 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 for minor, 1 b3 4 5 b7 for minor pentatonic, 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 for phrygian, et cetera...
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Mephaphil
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#7
I just learn a scale and improvise the shit out of it. And spend time with the previous scales I've learned. I also remember them using licks and do a lot of call and response stuff. I remember the scale from the root, remember what connects to those roots and then go from there. You'll find there's always a common pattern that you just need to see. I'm not at a stage where I can remember it based on the notes in the scale. I can for some stuff, but I do need the root and then I go from there. I'm getting better though.

I don't know about Eric Johnson but Steve Vai does know his shit. I've heard him talk fondly of Dorian in X key, he knows that stuff.

I'm pretty sure Guthrie does too from hearing him talk. They've practiced it all a hundred million times, it's second nature to them. I'm pretty sure they know it all, they're virtuosos, they know everything.

Just because they don't actively need to practice, it doesn't mean they haven't. You and I need to practice it. Maybe one day, if we focus really hard on it we won't have to anymore.

Maybe you should just relax a bit, focus on technique and just try to get to grips with the first and second mode. Or Major and relative minor. Then in a few months move on.

It's not a race, you've got plenty of time.
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Last edited by Mephaphil at Jan 15, 2013,
will42
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#8
Quote by W4RP1G


Also, did you ever consider that maybe all those guitarists you listed are just naturally better than you? You might never be anywhere near as good as those guys, even if you practiced as much them and used every exercise they used. Such is life. Some people are just extraordinary at somethings.



I have looked into this argument time and time again, and have found it to be largely wrong. It is not so much that they are naturally extraordinary at some things, its just that they have put in an extraordinary time practicing those things. I don't have good bassoon technique because I was born with it, I have good bassoon technique because I practiced it. The same can be said for anyone in any field. Its just the amount of time.

Furthermore, there is the "10,000 hours hypothesis." which states that the threshold of time required for someone to become truly excellent at something is about 10,000 hours. This number was determined by surveying conservatory students, classical soloists, some truly skilled guitarists, and by extrapolating numbers from they lives of Mozart, The Beatles, and others. I guarantee you that Govan, Friedman, and Becker all put in their 10,000 hours before people started calling them guitarists.

TS, can you tell me what a mode is without using the word scale? If you can't then you have no use for the modes. They really aren't all that important anyway. That said, I always find that playing arpeggios (with an added seventh) help when memorizing new patterns.
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#9
Quote by will42
I have looked into this argument time and time again, and have found it to be largely wrong. It is not so much that they are naturally extraordinary at some things, its just that they have put in an extraordinary time practicing those things. I don't have good bassoon technique because I was born with it, I have good bassoon technique because I practiced it. The same can be said for anyone in any field. Its just the amount of time.

Furthermore, there is the "10,000 hours hypothesis." which states that the threshold of time required for someone to become truly excellent at something is about 10,000 hours. This number was determined by surveying conservatory students, classical soloists, some truly skilled guitarists, and by extrapolating numbers from they lives of Mozart, The Beatles, and others. I guarantee you that Govan, Friedman, and Becker all put in their 10,000 hours before people started calling them guitarists.

TS, can you tell me what a mode is without using the word scale? If you can't then you have no use for the modes. They really aren't all that important anyway. That said, I always find that playing arpeggios (with an added seventh) help when memorizing new patterns.



I'm not saying someone is "born with good technique". I'm saying that some brains are able to do some things better than others, which is pretty obvious in many areas of life. Also, I haven't looked into the "10,000 hour hypothesis", so I can't really comment on it, but I will have to check that out. It is intriguing to think that I might be able to play like the guitar gods out there if I just practice more, but it would suck to dedicate much more of my life to playing only to discover that it was really just wishful thinking after all.
|Long|
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#10
Quote by W4RP1G
I'm not saying someone is "born with good technique". I'm saying that some brains are able to do some things better than others, which is pretty obvious in many areas of life. Also, I haven't looked into the "10,000 hour hypothesis", so I can't really comment on it, but I will have to check that out. It is intriguing to think that I might be able to play like the guitar gods out there if I just practice more, but it would suck to dedicate much more of my life to playing only to discover that it was really just wishful thinking after all.

I agree with you. It's for the same reason not 'anyone who puts the time into sports make it to the big leagues'. In this case, it's more mental vs. physical. I don't think everyone has the mind set to see music the way PG or Allan Holdsworth do.

OP,
What you are probably doing is learning scale patterns and boxes. What others do, is learn the intervals and sounds.

No, EJ wouldn't think I'll play scale X on position Y, but maybe he wants the sound of scale X, with his music knowledge, he can construct that sound while playing a line.

Getting stuck in the box is a tough place to be, but once you break out, you'll have a much easier time with how you view music.
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Last edited by |Long| at Jan 16, 2013,
JustRooster
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#11
Quote by sea`
Learn the modes individually and then connect them into the major scale across the whole neck. Do a bit of improvising for a few weeks and you will find yourself moving up and down the neck constantly. It's by far the easiest and best way to break out of the "minor pentatonic box".

Once your ear is trained you won't even need to pay attention to where notes are located, you'll simply be able to know by ear what interval comes next, or where to find the root. If you ever get lost, it's never hard to go back to familiar territory, and if you practice you can get to the point where if you ever do make a mistake, play a wrong note, etc. you can cover it up immediately in a way that is organic and even sounds good (i.e. turn it into a chromatic idea).



+1. Great post.

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ch1ng_chung
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Join date: May 2012
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#12
Wow, now I realize how dumb of a post this was. I got half the intervals of the scales down already, and I can connect them no troubles at all. Just got a little too freaked out over this.

Now how do I close this thread?
steven seagull
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Join date: Oct 2006
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#13
Quote by ch1ng_chung
So, I'm gonna get right to the meat of it. Been playing 2 and a half years, this summer I just learned all the modes and could play them off the top of my head, in my sleep, and could "see" all the degrees of the scale and even other scales that would fit nicely in with the key and scale in my head. I could connect them semi-perfectly, and I could switch different modes of different keys and make it sound really nice. And that's after 2 weeks of practice, before which I completely disregarded modes as dangerous Jazz territory.

Today, I felt like improv with modes, so I tried, but I found out that I didn't even remember the modes. I had to spend freaking 3 hours re-learning how to "see" the modes, the corresponding scales, and the degrees, and so far all I have down is playing the right mode shapes and seeing some degrees. Something is clearly wrong here. People should not forget stuff this easily, especially not guitar, and I should not have to sit down and revise my information every damn day just to remember what the hell a mode is.

Look at those people, Eric Johnson, Guthrie Govan, Malmsteen, Friedman, Becker, when's the last time any one of them seriously sat down and played through the modes...

"Alright EJ, you got this, alright, you gotta play through this, alright here we go! An Ionian, Dorian! Phagarian! Lydian! Mixolocrian! Aeolian! Locrain!"

In fact, when's the damn last time ANY one of them even practiced a scale? Johnson doesn't ever practice scales; I can tell from his playing, and Govan doesn't even need to practice scales, he somehow has managed to memorize every note on the fretboard in his head and play it. I have no idea how Friedman remembers all his weird Egyptian scales, but it's obviously not through repetitive repetition because he's a pro.

Now that I've discounted practicing the modes over and over as a method for the weak willed, how the hell do you memorize these modes? It took me a whole f**king 2 weeks to learn this, and I forget it when the season changes? Ridiculous.

1 - you're trying to learn an awful lot of crap that you

a- don't need
b - don't understand properly no doubt due to being given the wrong information. Ignore the word modes for the time being and ignore those fancy greek words, they're not going to help you one bit at this stage, they'll only serve to confuse you.

the second part of the problem is the word i've highlighted in bold.
Because before you can worry about whether or not you can "see" something on the guitar you first need to be able to hear it.
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kangaxxter
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#14
I know three scales: Minor Pentatonic, Major, and Harmonic (and the "Blues" scale which is just the Minor Pent with blue notes). For a vast majority of guitar music types, these three are all I've needed.
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ch1ng_chung
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#15
Quote by steven seagull
1 - you're trying to learn an awful lot of crap that you

a- don't need
b - don't understand properly no doubt due to being given the wrong information. Ignore the word modes for the time being and ignore those fancy greek words, they're not going to help you one bit at this stage, they'll only serve to confuse you.

the second part of the problem is the word i've highlighted in bold.
Because before you can worry about whether or not you can "see" something on the guitar you first need to be able to hear it.



But this info is useful, because now I understand the chord relations between scales and the chords, like a Dorian is a minor seven, and a Lydian is the jet plane chord, and that Diminished and Lydian work really well with each other

I have no idea how to apply this information though, unless it's within the realm of:
  • writing music
  • adding something extra to your improv
  • playing jazz or you hear something that sounds like the mode


How else can I apply this info? And what about those people who pride themselves over you because they can play a "major 7th add 10, minor third, plus two, imperfect 13th, over the (whatever)"?
ch1ng_chung
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#16
Quote by kangaxxter
I know three scales: Minor Pentatonic, Major, and Harmonic (and the "Blues" scale which is just the Minor Pent with blue notes). For a vast majority of guitar music types, these three are all I've needed.


Harmonic? Is that the version when you use a major but use a sharp five and emphasize the six, like a different version of a minor? The YJM scale?
Mephaphil
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#17
I think he means the Harmonic Minor. Emphasize?

It's the same as the natural minor but with the 7th degree raised by a semitone.

You've been playing 2 and a half years. While it's good that you're keen, it's very good, I've seen your videos and you should really be focusing on technique much more than theory. You play some fast stuff but it's not clean. I fear that this pursuit of speed and theory is leaving your technique by the wayside.

You seem to be really confusing yourself too. Focus on improving technique and take steps so that you fully understand what you've learnt.
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macashmack
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#18
Quote by MrFlibble
I'm someone who is inherently poor at remembering sequences. Scales, dates, math formulas, whatever, I'm crap at 'em all.
The way I tricked myself into actually remembering scales was to break them down into pieces of songs. I finally memorised the G Major and E Minor scales by playing Wonderful Tonight, Little Wing and Knockin' On Heaven's Door; I don't 'see' the scales as scales, I see them as a collection of phrases and riffs from several versions of those songs.

It's very lazy and a terrible habit for anyone that can actually remember scales and theory properly, but for those of us that can't get a grasp on these things to save our lives, remembering things at least by context is better than not remembering them at all.

I wouldn't advise anyone gives up on learning music 'properly', but if you get to a point like me where you're five years in and still can't point to a fret on the fretboard and name what note it is right away, chances are you may be best off taking the lazy way out


Little wing is in Eb
ch1ng_chung
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#19
Quote by macashmack
Little wing is in Eb


all maj/min scales are the same if they dont have the extra stuff , just moved up or down depending on note
ch1ng_chung
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#20
Quote by Mephaphil
I think he means the Harmonic Minor. Emphasize?

It's the same as the natural minor but with the 7th degree raised by a semitone.

You've been playing 2 and a half years. While it's good that you're keen, it's very good, I've seen your videos and you should really be focusing on technique much more than theory. You play some fast stuff but it's not clean. I fear that this pursuit of speed and theory is leaving your technique by the wayside.

You seem to be really confusing yourself too. Focus on improving technique and take steps so that you fully understand what you've learnt.


For now I'm going to leave speed technique to the wind, because as I learn more theory I will be able to play really fast classical violin pieces, which will require me to work exclusively on technique. I feel that now's just not the time to learn speed.

I am learning other technique, like I'm doing Manhattan by EJ right now, and it's taught me a lot about chord progressions and fingerpicking technique, and the solo has taught me cleaner bends.

Right now I want to focus on improv, because I have to speed to improv like Govan, minus his really fast runs; I just don't have the knowledge to know what notes to play
macashmack
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#21
Quote by ch1ng_chung
all maj/min scales are the same if they dont have the extra stuff , just moved up or down depending on note


well yes, but you shouldn't learn keys like that.
E major - key signature 4 sharps: E F# G# A B C# D#
Eb Major - key signature 3 flats: Eb F G Ab Bb C D
ch1ng_chung
Registered User
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#22
Quote by macashmack
well yes, but you shouldn't learn keys like that.
E major - key signature 4 sharps: E F# G# A B C# D#
Eb Major - key signature 3 flats: Eb F G Ab Bb C D


Well, from a notation prespective that would be much more useful, but I rarely use notation unless I am doing Jazz for school or Classical music like bach or paganini.

But I do know the trick for recognizing key signatures, one sharp down or one flat extra

Also, I hate it when they use notation to write pentatonic scales in a different key than the signature
HotspurJr
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#24
Could of points:

First of all, information is easier to remember if you understand it and use it.

Imagine you were trying to remember sentences in Chinese. Do you think they'd be easier to remember if you actually knew what they were saying, or if they were just a bunch of sounds? Do you think they'd be easier to remember if you were living in China, using them every day, or if you were living in a place where you didn't interact with anyone in Chinese, ever?

Do great musicians practice? I've been fortunate enough to meet a couple of world-class classical musicians, and you know what? They practice. They do drills. They run scales. Now, the level of precision that they require may mean that they have to, and a, say, cellist in a major symphony will be required to play all sorts of very complicated stuff with very little prep time, so he has to keep himself super sharp at all times.

I don't know if Clapton or Eric Johnson or any of those guys drive themselves like that. I think for a guitarist working in popular music, you don't have to as much. The music doesn't demand it. On the other hand, there are two keys about them:

First, they are using it, all the time. They may not be "practicing" with drills, but they are using the stuff they know regularly. They are playing every day. Second, they learned it in a context where they understood it. So there's that.

Have you ever seen a baseball player, coming back from an injury, struggle with a grounder? He's taken tens of thousands of them over his career, but he hasn't taken any in the last week, and it shows. You've got to use it.
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#25
Quote by Mephaphil
I think he means the Harmonic Minor. Emphasize?



Yeah, I meant Harmonic Minor.
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scguitarking927
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#26
Quote by Dayn
How did you learn them, and how do you apply them? When I play the major scale on my guitar, I don't think boxes. I think 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, the scale degrees. I know what patterns the unison, minor and major second, minor and major third, perfect fourth, tritone, perfect fifth, minor and major sixth, minor and major seventh, and the octave all take. If you give me a set of scale degrees, I can play that scale perfectly the first time anywhere on the neck in any key.

I would say to learn different ways to play each interval. I'd say learn them in this order: 1, 8, 5, 4; then 3, 7 and 6; then b3, b7 and b6. And b5. Once you learn the major scale as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, you'll know lydian dominant will be 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 and can play it instantly; you just alter a few notes of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. And so on and so forth for any scale you can think of. 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 for minor, 1 b3 4 5 b7 for minor pentatonic, 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 for phrygian, et cetera...


This

And then apply it. If you're just sitting there running through scales over and over again, you're really just wasting your time.
AeolianWolf
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#27
Quote by ch1ng_chung
all maj/min scales are the same if they dont have the extra stuff , just moved up or down depending on note


...lol
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TheHydra
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#28
Quote by ch1ng_chung
Harmonic? Is that the version when you use a major but use a sharp five and emphasize the six, like a different version of a minor? The YJM scale?

The Harmonic Minor is the Natural Minor scale with a sharpened 7th to give a stronger resolution to the tonic. If you play the 7th note of the C Major scale (B), you'll notice that it has a strong pull to the 1st note (C). If you play B and then C, it will be a satisfying sound. Now we don't have B in diatonic C Minor, we have Bb, and that doesn't have quite as strong of a pull to C; however, if you sharpen it by a half-step and make it into B you'll find that we have a strong movement to the 1st note again. This note a half-step behind the tonic is called the "leading tone", because it leads you into the tonic. The scale is Harmonic Minor because it has more effective harmony than Natural Minor, due to the presence of a leading tone and therefore the possibility for stronger resolutions.

Harmonic Minor is not the Yngwie Malmsteen scale. For the love of god, never say that again.
Last edited by TheHydra at Jan 16, 2013,
food1010
Bassist
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#29
Modes are not as important as you think. Don't worry about memorizing them.

By all means learn them, but you don't need to be able to play them on an intuitive level.

However, you should learn and use the major/minor scales exhaustively, in as many different contexts, rhythms, keys, etc. so that you can use it on an intuitive level. Any practical use for modes in tonal music is far outweighed by the major scale and a solid understanding of harmony.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
20Tigers
1
Join date: Jun 2008
640 IQ
#30
Quote by ch1ng_chung
But this info is useful, because now I understand the chord relations between scales and the chords, like a Dorian is a minor seven, and a Lydian is the jet plane chord, and that Diminished and Lydian work really well with each other

I have no idea how to apply this information though, unless it's within the realm of:
  • writing music
  • adding something extra to your improv
  • playing jazz or you hear something that sounds like the mode


How else can I apply this info? And what about those people who pride themselves over you because they can play a "major 7th add 10, minor third, plus two, imperfect 13th, over the (whatever)"?

Seriously...
Fcuk all those people that, as you say 'pride themselves over you because they can play a "major7th add 10, minor third, plus two, imperfect 13th. over the (whatever)'.

Those people don't mean shit. Worry about yourself and not what anyone else thinks and you will have much more success in life.
Si
cdgraves
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
43 IQ
#31
Do them every day. All 12 diatonic scales. It'll be a big deal for like a week, then it'll be like a 10 minute warm up thing.
dietermoreno
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2012
1,413 IQ
#32
I have this problem too of not remembering modes with out looking at scale charts.

The solution is to learn WHY the modes are constructed the way they are instead of HOW to play them.

I've found that this pattern reoccurs with everything in life, that learning WHY and learning HOW are two separate things where learning one does not guarantee learning the other.
steven seagull
not really a seagull
Join date: Oct 2006
1,064 IQ
#33
Quote by dietermoreno
I have this problem too of not remembering modes with out looking at scale charts.

The solution is to learn WHY the modes are constructed the way they are instead of HOW to play them.

I've found that this pattern reoccurs with everything in life, that learning WHY and learning HOW are two separate things where learning one does not guarantee learning the other.

It's only that way round though, the learning WHY (and it's close friend what) will usually enable you to understand the HOW far more easily.

The problem is when you try to learn the "how" without first knowing "why" and "what", which is nigh on impossible - becasue you can't ever learn how to do something if you don't first know what that "something "is.
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#34
Quote by ch1ng_chung
So, I'm gonna get right to the meat of it. Been playing 2 and a half years, this summer I just learned all the modes and could play them off the top of my head, in my sleep, and could "see" all the degrees of the scale and even other scales that would fit nicely in with the key and scale in my head. I could connect them semi-perfectly, and I could switch different modes of different keys and make it sound really nice. And that's after 2 weeks of practice, before which I completely disregarded modes as dangerous Jazz territory.

Today, I felt like improv with modes, so I tried, but I found out that I didn't even remember the modes. I had to spend freaking 3 hours re-learning how to "see" the modes, the corresponding scales, and the degrees, and so far all I have down is playing the right mode shapes and seeing some degrees. Something is clearly wrong here. People should not forget stuff this easily, especially not guitar, and I should not have to sit down and revise my information every damn day just to remember what the hell a mode is.

Look at those people, Eric Johnson, Guthrie Govan, Malmsteen, Friedman, Becker, when's the last time any one of them seriously sat down and played through the modes...

"Alright EJ, you got this, alright, you gotta play through this, alright here we go! An Ionian, Dorian! Phagarian! Lydian! Mixolocrian! Aeolian! Locrain!"

In fact, when's the damn last time ANY one of them even practiced a scale? Johnson doesn't ever practice scales; I can tell from his playing, and Govan doesn't even need to practice scales, he somehow has managed to memorize every note on the fretboard in his head and play it. I have no idea how Friedman remembers all his weird Egyptian scales, but it's obviously not through repetitive repetition because he's a pro.

Now that I've discounted practicing the modes over and over as a method for the weak willed, how the hell do you memorize these modes? It took me a whole f**king 2 weeks to learn this, and I forget it when the season changes? Ridiculous.

You memorize scales by SOUND. That's it.

Loop a single chord vamp, and play the scale over it. Make melodies with the scale, don't just run up and down it.

Eventually, you won't need the shapes, because you will know what the note will sound like before you fret it.

Use the shapes to train your ear first, then in time, your ear will take over and shapes will be forgotten.

Playing laterally, rather than vertically always helps too. It breaks you out of boxes.
Last edited by mdc at Jan 17, 2013,
CarsonStevens
Rocksmith
Join date: Sep 2010
688 IQ
#35
Personally, I never bothered to actively memorize a scale. The few I know, that I know well, I know because I've been using them for a damn long time. It's like anything else; use it enough and it becomes automatic. Did you have to memorize how to finger an open A chord, or did you just practice it until you didn't have to think about it?
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#36
i think this thread just gave me diarrhea
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Hail killed MT

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ch1ng_chung
Registered User
Join date: May 2012
2,038 IQ
#38
Quote by mdc
Me too. But it's ok, I'm in a stable condition, it just gave me the right trots, and had to hoof it up the stairs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21059623


thats nothing to horse around about you silly willy filly, you might offend someone and stirrup some trouble
macashmack
Maskcashmack
Join date: May 2011
3,359 IQ
#39
Yes i am deeply offended mdc, if that IS your real NAME!
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#40
Quote by ch1ng_chung
thats nothing to horse around about you silly willy filly, you might offend someone and stirrup some trouble

Naaaaayyy I won't.