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#161
Quote by due 07

...wat. could you please rephrase this because i don't think it's my position.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30916888&postcount=134

You had no problem with me making this assertion at the time.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
#162
Quote by Todd Hart
Privilege.

Apparently in due's world you should have the right to a product regardless of whether you've paid for it or not. I believe this is called self-entitlement, which is a peculiar thing for him to praise given the amount of time he spends railing on people who underestimate their white privilege.


ftfy
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#165
Quote by Tsar66
& piracy is not theft, obviously


In what possible sense of the word is piracy not theft?

Theft is the taking of property without consent, digital piracy is the ascertaining of digital property without consent.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#166
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30916888&postcount=134

You had no problem with me making this assertion at the time.

yeah but i don't think filesharing is actually stealing--it's just sharing. the law may say it's stealing, but that doesn't make it so. it's just 'cuz the legislators are in the pockets of powerful and organized private interest lobbies, something music consumers don't have. the law also says that corporations are people and that pizza is a vegetable.
#167
Quote by due 07
yeah but i don't think filesharing is actually stealing--it's just sharing. the law may say it's stealing, but that doesn't make it so. it's just 'cuz the legislators are in the pockets of powerful and organized private interest lobbies, something music consumers don't have. the law also says that corporations are people and that pizza is a vegetable.

The law also says it's wrong to shoot people. Sometimes the law is pretty spot-on.
#168
Quote by Todd Hart
In what possible sense of the word is piracy not theft?

Theft is the taking of property without consent, digital piracy is the ascertaining of digital property without consent.

for it to be theft the original product would have to be stolen. when something is pirated, it's merely a copy of the original being made, & then distributed
#169
Quote by due 07
yeah but i don't think filesharing is actually stealing--it's just sharing. the law may say it's stealing, but that doesn't make it so. it's just 'cuz the legislators are in the pockets of powerful and organized private interest lobbies, something music consumers don't have. the law also says that corporations are people and that pizza is a vegetable.


Why is it not stealing?

Quote by Tsar66
for it to be theft the original product would have to be stolen. when something is pirated, it's merely a copy of the original being made, & then distributed


And as such you are gaining access to the product without consent. Where in the definition of theft does it say you have to take the original product?

And so, by your logic, making fake money is perfectly legal. After all, you aren't stealing money, you're just making a copy of it. Patent theft too is legal, right? And product plagiarism?
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
Last edited by Todd Hart at Jan 18, 2013,
#170
Quote by Tsar66
& piracy is not theft, obviously


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#172
Quote by Tsar66
for it to be theft the original product would have to be stolen. when something is pirated, it's merely a copy of the original being made, & then distributed


Isn't another definition of theft is to take someone's property without permission or consent?
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#174
Quote by Horsedick.MPEG
Isn't another definition of theft is to take someone's property without permission or consent?


It's not another, it's the definition.

steal [steel] Show IPA verb, stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun.
verb (used with object)
1.
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

Quote by Tsar66
& when something is pirated it isn't taken, it's only copied


You're still taking something that doesn't rightly belong to you without permission, regardless of whether the it's the original or a copy.
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#175
Quote by due 07
yeah but i don't think filesharing is actually stealing--it's just sharing. the law may say it's stealing, but that doesn't make it so. it's just 'cuz the legislators are in the pockets of powerful and organized private interest lobbies, something music consumers don't have. the law also says that corporations are people and that pizza is a vegetable.

How does the fact that the information is infinitely duplicable make it moral to steal?
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
#176
Quote by Tsar66
& when something is pirated it isn't taken, it's only copied

So you've taken their information and made your own copy then?...you haven't really gotten round much by claiming copying.
#177
Quote by Tsar66
& when something is pirated it isn't taken, it's only copied


When somebody steals a copy of a patent it isn't taken, only copied. When someone launders money it isn't taken, only copied. When someone steals from your bank account they aren't actually physically taking your money. When someone photocopies a book and sells copies of it they aren't taking, they're copying. etc etc et-****ing-cetera.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#178
Quote by Horsedick.MPEG
Isn't another definition of theft is to take someone's property without permission or consent?


If I buy a statue, and when I'm asleep someone comes into my house, makes an exact replica of that statue, and then leaves, did he steal my statue?
Most likely no.

But did he do something illegal (besides entering my house)? Yes? What?
Would it matter if I was the sculptor of the statue, or not?
Would it matter if I was planning on selling the statue, or not?
Would it matter if the statue was a commercial product, or not?

You guys seem to be stuck in the same semantics loop, with just the "it's theft" or "it's not theft" discussion going on and on and on.
Give us some more arguments dammit!

EDIT: Of course the same questions should be applied to the "digital realm", where physical resources "matter less" than in the real world (in the real world it would matter the stone that made one statue and the replica, in the "digital world" you don't care about the electric current from a bit of a RAM or a groove in a disk)
Last edited by gonzaw at Jan 18, 2013,
#179
Quote by Tsar66
& when something is pirated it isn't taken, it's only copied


So if you ran a restaurant and I decided to make copies of your food and give it away to people for free and you lose money and business, you would totally be okay with that?
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#180
Quote by due 07
buying pepsi instead of dr. pepper does not create external cost to dr. pepper, what a ridiculous way of looking at things. we might as well be forced to buy everything ever.

No, stop making bad analogies. Not paying for digital media, when a certain volume of consumers engage in the practice, creates external costs to those who do pay for the media, as well as creators, producers, and distributors of the media. As there is no longer any transaction occurring between you and the distributor, their loss of revenue is an external cost of piracy.

you wanna prove that? oh wait you can't because it's bs conjecture.

Well if there are no external costs of piracy, an environment where 100% of digital media is pirated should create no adverse effects, correct? An environment where 100% of media is pirated is an environment where there is no profit to be made off of creation and distribution of media, regulating entertainment to an entirely amateur pursuit.
#181
Quote by gonzaw
If I buy a statue, and when I'm asleep someone comes into my house, makes an exact replica of that statue, and then leaves, did he steal my statue?
Most likely no.

But did he do something illegal (besides entering my house)? Yes? What?
Would it matter if I was the sculptor of the statue, or not?
Would it matter if I was planning on selling the statue, or not?
Would it matter if the statue was a commercial product, or not?

You guys seem to be stuck in the same semantics loop, with just the "it's theft" or "it's not theft" discussion going on and on and on.
Give us some more arguments dammit!


That isn't the same situation. A better analogy would be that you are a sculptor, and someone is making replicas of your statues and giving them away for free. That's intellectual property theft.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#182
Quote by Trowzaa
You're still taking something that doesn't rightly belong to you without permission, regardless of whether the it's the original or a copy.

but you're not taking anything because the original is still there

Quote by Horsedick.MPEG
So if you ran a restaurant and I decided to make copies of your food and give it away to people for free and you lose money and business, you would totally be okay with that?

i wouldn't, so it's a good thing i didn't imply that i would

Quote by Todd Hart
When somebody steals a copy of a patent it isn't taken, only copied. When someone launders money it isn't taken, only copied. When someone steals from your bank account they aren't actually physically taking your money. When someone photocopies a book and sells copies of it they aren't taking, they're copying. etc etc et-****ing-cetera.

your argument about a bank is stupid 'cuz the person who's money is being taken loses something. & i'm even sure what your point is tbh

Quote by willT08
So you've taken their information and made your own copy then?...you haven't really gotten round much by claiming copying.

i'm not trying to 'get round' anything, i'm just saying that piracy isn't theft
#183
I'ts a lost battle when you strip down to the term "piracy" or "sharing", you have to keep an eye of what really is going on and how piracy is so massive nowadays, not just because its free.

I torrent TV shows and movies that you can't find in my country, mostly because some stupid regional restrictions, their fault if you ask me.

Example:

I live in Mexico and when i turn on the tv i find this bullshit on prime time hours: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lvszjKMT14

And in the "Music" Channels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M3iXkINGqo

----

However i choose to torrent breaking bad and download some The Police songs.
That makes me a criminal?



When it comes to downloading music, piracy has been so massively spreaded thanks to the abusive behavior of the recording companies (Overpriced stuff, getting more percentage of the cd sell incomes than the artist, radio/newspaper/TV management in order to difuse their new "toys")

Of course i'm talking about big label companies, this was sightly countered by independient labels and artists.

Mayor labels who got power over the media, overly-broadcasted shitty music at the point that we can't find "free" good music on legit ways, so we, the humble internet people, had to search in other places, and since youtube started with their stupid regional locks, they just left the torrenting option left.

However i believe on rewarding the artist, attending to the concerts (which represent a mayor income to them than selling cds, unless they're on a indie/self label)

Also thanks to the social impact of the internet, artists whom got their stuff pirated, also got free publicity for beeing chossen by the people free will.
I mean, how many of us have found amazing music by downloading or watched it via youtube, than having it heard on the radio?

More promotion from free torrented songs usually means more fans, and more fans means more people attending to their concerts.
#184
Quote by Tsar66
your argument about a bank is stupid 'cuz the person who's money is being taken loses something. & i'm even sure what your point is tbh


The band/published/record company that you own the music of without buying has lost something: a sale. If you own a £10 record that you haven't paid for then you have deprived that company and band of £10.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#185
Quote by Todd Hart
That isn't the same situation. A better analogy would be that you are a sculptor, and someone is making replicas of your statues and giving them away for free. That's intellectual property theft.


You guys were arguing about the exact definition of "steal" which was "take something from someone without permission" which you guys said could mean a copy while others said it wouldn't

I'm trying to set a common ground regarding the semantics of the word "steal", so you can apply it to this specific situation or make better analogies.
#186
Quote by Tsar66
i wouldn't, so it's a good thing i didn't imply that i would


But in your logic, he should be okay to do that and you shouldn't be mad because he didn't do anything wrong.
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#187
Quote by Horsedick.MPEG
But in your logic, he should be okay to do that and you shouldn't be mad because he didn't do anything wrong.

just because piracy isn't theft doesn't mean it's not wrong

Quote by Todd Hart
The band/published/record company that you own the music of without buying has lost something: a sale. If you own a £10 record that you haven't paid for then you have deprived that company and band of £10.

i meant that they do not lose anything they had before, while the person who's bank account is being stolen from obviously does
#188
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
How does the fact that the information is infinitely duplicable make it moral to steal?

Reposting this as due hasn't answered my question yet.

And as Todd posted before: How is it not stealing?
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
#189
Quote by Tsar66
i meant that they do not lose anything they had before, while the person who's bank account is being stolen from obviously does


So what? That's irrelevant. The point is that you have gained access to something which is owned property without consent. That's theft. You can try an use semantics about physical products and originals all you like, but the fact is that the legal system has covered such things as theft for ages, i.e. patent theft, intellectual property theft, fraudulent products, plagiarism etc.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#190
Quote by Tsar66
just because piracy isn't theft doesn't mean it's not wrong



Answer me this; does the CD belong to you?
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#191
Quote by Tsar66
but you're not taking anything because the original is still there
The idea of the 'original' is meaningless when it comes to information. If you have a copy, you have the orginal.

your argument about a bank is stupid 'cuz the person who's money is being taken loses something. & i'm even sure what your point is tbh
What about the rest of them?

i'm not trying to 'get round' anything, i'm just saying that piracy isn't theft

And you're not doing a very good job.
#192
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Reposting this as due hasn't answered my question yet.

And as Todd posted before: How is it not stealing?


Apparently it's not stealing because you're selling it digitally, therefore if someone gets it without your permission, it's okay because it's still there. They weren't gonna buy it anyway.
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#194
Quote by AxeToFall
Tsar66's year of birth: 1996

figures.


Case closed.
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#195
Quote by Horsedick.MPEG
Apparently it's not stealing because you're selling it digitally, therefore if someone gets it without your permission, it's okay because it's still there. They weren't gonna buy it anyway.

The problem isn't that the original file is still there, the problem is that no money is going to the artist or the record company that made the master copy in the first place. As you're acquiring information that originated from the master copy, you owe them money for their information. Since you're not paying them, it is theft.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at Jan 18, 2013,
#196
Quote by willT08
The idea of the 'original' is meaningless when it comes to information. If you have a copy, you have the orginal.

which is pretty much my point

What about the rest of them?

then they're all the same as piracy, i.e. not theft


And you're not doing a very good job.



Quote by Trowzaa
Answer me this; does the CD belong to you?

the physical CD does, yeah
#197
So, if I'm understanding this right, the only reason that stealing a dvd is wrong is because it's physical media? If you stole a dvd of a movie from a distributor's warehouse, and replaced it with a blank dvd, that would be fine as the intellectual property physically contained in the disc is worthless?
Last edited by TheChaz at Jan 18, 2013,
#198
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
The problem isn't that the original file is still there, the problem is that no money is going to the artist or the record company that made the master copy in the first place.


I'm in agreement with you, I'm just restating their point.

Quote by TheChaz
So, if I'm understanding this right, the only reason that stealing a dvd is wrong is because it's physical media? If you stole a dvd from a distributor's warehouse, and replaced it with a blank dvd, that would be fine as the intellectual property physically contained in the disc is worthless?


If the blank DVD is burned from an ISO copied from the original, it's okay according to their logic.
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Last edited by Horsedick.MPEG at Jan 18, 2013,
#199
Quote by willT08
Why is it immoral? Unless you believe people are entitled to owning any piece of information they wish, I don't know why it is.

i think forced artificial scarcity is always immoral.

Check your priviledge Due. You don't have a right to information when possible.

OMG. todd just used this joke, it's like you guys don't even care about looking like circlewanks anymore. (btw the check yr privilege thing doesn't even make sense here.)
Quote by Todd Hart
Why is it not stealing?

because it's shared or copied or duplicated in a harmful way.
#200
Quote by Tsar66



the physical CD does, yeah


Okay, I didn't mean that, do the files belong to you?
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