ChemicalFire
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#2
This is a plug disguised as a question.

I am not a fan of such leading on.
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Tmusician
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#3
Quote by ChemicalFire
This is a plug disguised as a question.

I am not a fan of such leading on.


I don't know what you are talking about, good sir.
Last edited by Tmusician at Jan 19, 2013,
xFilth
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#4
The difference is frequency control (and a proper arrangement)
Cavalcade
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#5
Simply put, every instrument has to have its own space in the spectrum, without too much overlap, and extraneous bands have to be turned down to make dynamic room for the rest of the track.
If you want us to crit your mix specifically, post it in Crit My Mix. It doesn't need its own thread.
ChemicalFire
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#6
Big mixes are normally helped out massively by using LCR panning. Which is, only panning hard left, right or centre.

Most people aren't gonna be in a perfect stereo environment so subtle panning is kinda useless in most cases. Panning hard makes the mix sound nice and wide.
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#8
Quote by Tmusician
BAM! Thanks to the ability to edit posts now it looks like I didn't link any mix and now everyone will be confused. MUWAHAHAHA

And thanks to the quote button, I can keep this post where you can't edit it.
lockwolf
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#9
LCR Panning, EQing to give space & proper levels. Also, layering virtual instruments or synths behind parts depending on the Genre make things larger. Though, more instruments doesn't always mean bigger sound.
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#11
Quote by chronowarp
I don't know why LCR would make a mix sound bigger.

This is why:
Quote by ChemicalFire

Most people aren't gonna be in a perfect stereo environment so subtle panning is kinda useless in most cases. Panning hard makes the mix sound nice and wide.
chronowarp
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#12
That isn't an adequate explanation. Do you think I didn't read that post?

Exclusively panning LCR isn't going to help anything...considering most guitars in rock music are instantly hard panned anyway. Pushing everything else that isn't centered out to the sides isn't really going to accomplish anything in making it sound "bigger".
kyle62
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#13
Quote by chronowarp
That isn't an adequate explanation. Do you think I didn't read that post?

Exclusively panning LCR isn't going to help anything...considering most guitars in rock music are instantly hard panned anyway. Pushing everything else that isn't centered out to the sides isn't really going to accomplish anything in making it sound "bigger".

I've started pulling my guitars in a bit lately (say, 85L/85R), and I think it makes the mixes sound more cohesive. You lose a tiny bit of that initial 'BOOOM!' factor, but it's much nicer on headphones, since you have no natural crosstalk.

How to make a mix sound huge without being cluttered?
Spend at least 25% of your time working in mono. It forces you to focus on the frequencies and composition instead of using stereo and phase trickery to balance everything.

Also, sidechaining
ChemicalFire
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#14
Quote by chronowarp
That isn't an adequate explanation. Do you think I didn't read that post?

Exclusively panning LCR isn't going to help anything...considering most guitars in rock music are instantly hard panned anyway. Pushing everything else that isn't centered out to the sides isn't really going to accomplish anything in making it sound "bigger".


Most big radio rock mixes are panned LCR. Don't knock it till you've tried it. It gives it space, everything is nice and separated but it gives it huuuuge girth.

Like it's not a heavy mix, it's a wide mix.

I still don't use it completely, but it works pretty well tbh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDp8rsdmdEE

And yeah, working in mono is pretty awesome. I don't tend to mix in mono but I do check my mix in mono with the mono button in StudioOne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSyd_7TYo-k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iShmU-99JF4
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chronowarp
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#15
Ya I've watched all that guy's videos on the subject, but he seems to be the only "professional" advocating it, and it still doesn't convince me conceptually or aurally.
Bostonrocks
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#16
Quote by chronowarp
Ya I've watched all that guy's videos on the subject, but he seems to be the only "professional" advocating it, and it still doesn't convince me conceptually or aurally.



Well, if you're looking for "big" "pros" who advocate it pick a rock songs producer or mixer and I bet its panned LCR. Mutt Lange, Andy Sneap, Joey Sturgis. It's a pretty common thing among Rock and Metal genres.

As for the concept, it doesn't really make it "big" so much as "wide" and wide in most peoples mind and ears translates to big. I personally think another big (heh. pun. heh) part of a huge mix is just knowing how to compress properly and more importantly WHEN.

EDIT: here is a great example of what I consider a "big" mix (infact its one of my favorite mixes of any rock song in recent history)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhAq5DFAhBg this is all LCR (watch in HQ)

EDIT 2: It's TECHNICALLY not a "true" LCR mix because the toms aren't panned hard.
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Last edited by Bostonrocks at Jan 21, 2013,
lockwolf
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#17
Quote by chronowarp
Ya I've watched all that guy's videos on the subject, but he seems to be the only "professional" advocating it, and it still doesn't convince me conceptually or aurally.


I can pull up a video of Chris Lord-Alge advocating LCR panning (The guy who's mixed every Green Day album since Nimrod, AFI, Daughtry, My Chemical Romance, Sum 41 & various others). A lot of Pros aren't going to come out and say "Oh yeah, I LCR pan, use these EQs, this Preamp, these compressors & such" but they do.
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#18
Are we talking LCR ...on guitars, stereo overheads, and shit like bass/kick/snare....or LCR on every single possible track in a mix. You're going to hard pan a tom? A harmony?
ChemicalFire
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#19
Quote by chronowarp
Are we talking LCR ...on guitars, stereo overheads, and shit like bass/kick/snare....or LCR on every single possible track in a mix. You're going to hard pan a tom? A harmony?


Everything. Like I said, most people aren't going to be able to position any of your subtle panning as they aren't in a perfect stereo environment like you are in front of your monitors.
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ChemicalFire
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#21
Sorry that it clashes with what you believe to be true.
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chronowarp
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#22
Has nothing to do with that. I just really can't stand when people dispense advice that seems to come from something they read rather than real world application and execution.

Take that how you will.
chatterbox272
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#23
Quote by chronowarp
Has nothing to do with that. I just really can't stand when people dispense advice that seems to come from something they read rather than real world application and execution.

Take that how you will.

So you believe that everyone is in a perfect stereo environment? please, anyone who's heard a loud noise will never be in a perfect stereo environment because minor hearing damage will have made their ears hear differently to each other.
I'm not saying you should always do full LCR panning on everything, I have found use for 70% or 50% depending on the mix but subtle panning is definitely not going to be noticed by 99% of the audience who hears it and will likely make things more complex for your mixing so it is really not worth the trouble.
As for sounding wide there is no argument, LCR panning is as wide as something will get. Think about it for a second, you can't get a further spread than full left and full right so no matter what trickery you use hard left/right will produce the widest sound, whether you want that is up to you, but it will produce the widest sound.
ChemicalFire
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#24
Quote by chronowarp
Has nothing to do with that. I just really can't stand when people dispense advice that seems to come from something they read rather than real world application and execution.

Take that how you will.


I've been doing all my mixes in LCR for a while now. Not complete LCR. I tend to be a bit more subtle with my drums. But everything else, LCR.
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kyle62
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#25
Quote by ChemicalFire
I've been doing all my mixes in LCR for a while now. Not complete LCR. I tend to be a bit more subtle with my drums. But everything else, LCR.

I just tried a very quick mix in LCR and it works quite nicely for meat-and-potatoes modern rock. There's a lot of places where it wouldn't be that effective, but the technique has merit.
schwinginbatman
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#26
I can see the application for LCR in some areas, especially guitars (although in dual-guitar leads or duel-style solos I pan more around 50%), I find that doing so for drums like toms or vocals doesn't lead me to results I like. I always feel like when I have vocals coming out from hard left or right, they feel detached from the rest of the vocals and seem more like an effect than an actual vocal part, same with the toms. But I always do rhythm guitar hard left and right.
lockwolf
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#27
Toms have always been an interesting one for me. I usually pan them based on how big the fills are. I had an old drummer that used to have 7 toms and do huge 80's Hair Metal fills. We'd usually pan the high toms left, middle toms center & low toms right with some automation to center it up if its song ending fills. In a stereo environment, it feels like there's a drumkit sitting in front of you. It still sounded pretty decent in headphones as well.

Lead Vocals rarely stray from center for me. In most modern music (if not all), Vocals are the main focus of the song. If they aren't center, they aren't going to be as full as they can be.
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chronowarp
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#28
Quote by chatterbox272
So you believe that everyone is in a perfect stereo environment? please, anyone who's heard a loud noise will never be in a perfect stereo environment because minor hearing damage will have made their ears hear differently to each other.
I'm not saying you should always do full LCR panning on everything, I have found use for 70% or 50% depending on the mix but subtle panning is definitely not going to be noticed by 99% of the audience who hears it and will likely make things more complex for your mixing so it is really not worth the trouble.
As for sounding wide there is no argument, LCR panning is as wide as something will get. Think about it for a second, you can't get a further spread than full left and full right so no matter what trickery you use hard left/right will produce the widest sound, whether you want that is up to you, but it will produce the widest sound.

No, I don't think that, but can you give me your sources and accumulated research that demonstrates that 99% of people won't hear "subtle panning" - as if anything that's not L, R, or C is "subtle".

I don't think wide is what makes something "big". Big to me is more of an issue of fullness and loudness, and has to do with properly settings levels and EQing in a way that you can achieve maximum ballcrushing and still have clarity in your mix.
Last edited by chronowarp at Jan 22, 2013,
lockwolf
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#29
Quote by chronowarp
I don't think wide is what makes something "big". Big to me is more of an issue of fullness and loudness, and has to do with properly settings levels and EQing in a way that you can achieve maximum ballcrushing and still have clarity in your mix.


Try mixing everything straight up the middle then start sending things hard left & hard right. You'll instantly notice your mix getting bigger.
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chronowarp
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#30
Quote by lockwolf
Try mixing everything straight up the middle then start sending things hard left & hard right. You'll instantly notice your mix getting bigger.

That's not what I'm saying though. You're giving me the superlative corollary of what I'm saying.

My point is this: Everyone that mixes rock/metal hard pans electric guitars as a starting point for a big sound, but that in itself, isn't what's going to make it sound "big", and it's not even near the most important factor. Ya, if you ****in' center all your guitar tracks it's going to sound narrow - but that's not really the point.
crazysam23_Atax
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#31
^
I really don't think you're understanding lockwolf & kyle's point, chrono.
chatterbox272
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#32
Quote by chronowarp
No, I don't think that, but can you give me your sources and accumulated research that demonstrates that 99% of people won't hear "subtle panning" - as if anything that's not L, R, or C is "subtle".

umm did you completely miss the part where I said I sometimes use 50% or 70% depending on the mix? But panning 10 or 20% isn't going to be noticed in most environments.
lockwolf
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#33
Quote by chronowarp
TMy point is this: Everyone that mixes rock/metal hard pans electric guitars as a starting point for a big sound, but that in itself, isn't what's going to make it sound "big", and it's not even near the most important factor. Ya, if you ****in' center all your guitar tracks it's going to sound narrow - but that's not really the point.


Then whats your definition of a big mix? You seem to be the only one against panning and everything thats been said. I mean, if you really want to get down to it, a big mix in my eyes comes down to:

Proper Panning
Everything EQ'd into place
Compressed so there are still dynamics & yet its loud
Analog saturation

If I'm off in what goes into a big mix, I'm going to give up :p
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chronowarp
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#34
Quote by lockwolf
Then whats your definition of a big mix? You seem to be the only one against panning and everything thats been said. I mean, if you really want to get down to it, a big mix in my eyes comes down to:

Proper Panning
Everything EQ'd into place
Compressed so there are still dynamics & yet its loud
Analog saturation

If I'm off in what goes into a big mix, I'm going to give up :p

No, you're misunderstanding me.
I pan shit the exact same way - pretty much everyone hard pans guitars and stereo overheads.

but...that's a given. It's not going to make your mix sound HUGE or BIG. It's going to make it wider...but there are a plethora of more important factors that are going to actually influence how big and fat it sounds (like the other things you listed, that actually impact that).
Last edited by chronowarp at Jan 23, 2013,
lockwolf
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#35
But does Wide not equal Big? I think you've missed the point entirely. Yes, proper EQing and Compression definitely play a more noticeable factor in mixing but without LCR panning (or any at all) you're going to lose half of what makes a big mix sound HUGE!
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chronowarp
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#36
But why call it LCR panning...when nothing else in the mix besides specific elements (guitar primarily) need to be panned hard to achieve that effect?
lockwolf
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#37
Quote by chronowarp
But why call it LCR panning...when nothing else in the mix besides specific elements (guitar primarily) need to be panned hard to achieve that effect?


It actually goes back to some of the original consoles. Back in the day, there were no subtle panning, it was Left, Center & Right. Thus, that is how the LCR paning we know today came about.

Besides, who said you only need to hard pan guitars. Try hard paning synths, drums, keys, single tracked guitars, and other elements. Currently, one of my largest sounding tracks I've got is a single tracked electric panned one way, an acoustic panned the opposite way and lead up the middle. Give it a shot.
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ChemicalFire
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#39
Because it still makes things sound the widest they possibly can?
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