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#41
Quote by Mephaphil
Outgrow?

I have a solid morality based on education, equality and respect that values the lives of people over the capital gain of shareholders.

What the **** do I need to outgrow?


If you've read Animal Farm and still don't get it, then I'm certainly not going to be able to break through. It's about the economic principal of scarcity and certain elements of human nature that are constant throughout all recorded human history. Certainly you've come across these ideas in your education, and yet you still believe utopia is achievable, just like you believed Kensai is really dead. Don't outgrow that one either.

How come every time people try to achieve utopia we end up with distopia instead?
#42
Quote by Mephaphil
That's what I said.

What has him not being finnish, have to do with the fact that he is dead?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#43
Screw it. Imma bookmark this thread so I can one day revisit it in the year 2050. Let's ask future Joshua Garcia.

Hey old self!
Assuming it's still here, and you remember this, is the new UG cool and what-not? Also, can you still get a boner?
There's nothing left here to be saved
Just barreling dogs and barking trains
Another year lost to the blue line
#44
Quote by jetwash69
If you've read Animal Farm and still don't get it, then I'm certainly not going to be able to break through. It's about the economic principal of scarcity and certain elements of human nature that are constant throughout all recorded human history. Certainly you've come across these ideas in your education, and yet you still believe utopia is achievable, just like you believed Kensai is really dead. Don't outgrow that one either.

How come every time people try to achieve utopia we end up with distopia instead?

I don't see how the book actually deals with the principals of scarcity (has been a while since I read it). Certainly it only has redistribution elements in it?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#45
Quote by Neo Evil11
No, I have MS. I will just gangbang the pitmonkeys for 10-20 more years then my body is done.

Oh ok, you'll get your service medals even with early retirement.

But if you're serious about the MS, sorry to hear that.
#46
Quote by Neo Evil11
I don't see how the book actually deals with the principals of scarcity (has been a while since I read it). Certainly it only has redistribution elements in it?


Nope. Lots more to it. Did you read it in English or a translation? Read it again--the English version.
#47
Quote by tukk04
Oh ok, you'll get your service medals even with early retirement.

But if you're serious about the MS, sorry to hear that.

Jesus christ, what is wrong with you people. I bet you all think he's a girl too..


Neo, whatever you're doing, you're a genius because it seems to fool everyone for some reason
#48
Quote by tukk04
Oh ok, you'll get your service medals even with early retirement.

But if you're serious about the MS, sorry to hear that.

I meant SM. I am doing too much SM with you pit monkeys, it's destroying my body.

edit: this is actually a terrible mistake. I'm sorry if someone actually has a terrible disease.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#49
Quote by jetwash69
Nope. Lots more to it. Did you read it in English or a translation? Read it again--the English version.

English, but it was when I was 14 or so. I just saw a story about the formation of a totalitarian state after a revolution that was meant to end in an utopia, because of propaganda and abuse of power misformed it. Just like it did in Russia.

It's quite similar in my opinion to road to serfdom by Hayek.


edit: or do you mean by scarcity, the problem that the workers had too little while the chief pig had too much? I see that more as a distribution problem. Well you can actually call it a scarcity problem.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
Last edited by Neo Evil11 at Jan 22, 2013,
#50
Quote by sam b
Jesus christ, what is wrong with you people. I bet you all think he's a girl too..

Neo, whatever you're doing, you're a genius because it seems to fool everyone for some reason

Well if neo actually had MS is would suck horribly, it's a terrible disease and a family friend had it. It was upsetting to see them go through before they died from related consequences.

Apparently you didn't see the "but if you're serious..." part.
#51
Quote by SexyLikeAPig
In the future, maybe the Pit'll just be a cult dedicated to worshipping roaraudio, our Saviour.

Amen!

#53
Quote by Neo Evil11
No, I have MS... ...10-20 more years then my body is done.

I hope that's just dark humor.

But if not, maybe this will give you some hope:

I know a woman who is in her 50s with MS and is still going strong. Let's just say she's at the top in her field (think high-level public-sector executive) and in outstanding physical shape (she's still an athlete, even though that's just an amature pastime for her). She's had many struggles with MS, but she's been beating it with flying colors so far. She works at least 70 hours a week and she's raising two children on top of that. I don't know how long she's had MS, though. I wish you could meet her; she's truly an inspiration.

I also have an old friend whose wife got MS around 21 years ago. Last time we were in touch (a couple of years ago) she was still beating it.

Hang in there--it's a marathon.
#54
Quote by jetwash69
If you've read Animal Farm and still don't get it, then I'm certainly not going to be able to break through. It's about the economic principal of scarcity and certain elements of human nature that are constant throughout all recorded human history. Certainly you've come across these ideas in your education, and yet you still believe utopia is achievable, just like you believed Kensai is really dead. Don't outgrow that one either.

How come every time people try to achieve utopia we end up with distopia instead?


I'm not here to justify my beliefs to you, man. You can justify your greed in whatever way you want, just don't expect me to agree. I wouldn't use one novel as your entire basis for argument, it's a story with many interpretations.

I happen to believe that humanity has the ability to evolve socially, that we're a young race and as we've become more accepting of homosexuality and unaccepting of racism, we can also start to move towards respecting people over monetary gain. Given the state of our environment, with the constant pillaging of natural resources we'll either have to change or face extinction.

I don't know if greed is a real thing, it could just be a result of desperation, of circumstance, of a global poverty. Who knows, but what I do know, is that no 'utopia' has existed with help from those around them. Early Communist Russia, lots of plus points, boycotted by the world - became shitty. Same with Cuba, China etc. You force people into a corner, to be self sufficient and they'll do what they have to in order to survive and that's what our society is, a fight for survival. If we didn't have to fight then maybe that trait, which a lot of people agree is learned could be forgotten.

Tell me that those dying of starvation, living in poverty or homeless in the capital city of the richest nation in the world are cool with capitalism. millions living in poverty in America alone, is your way working for them?

Or those who's countries are devoured by war in the name of it.

Or who's country has no rights to their own natural resources leaving the people in complete famine because they have nothing.

Yea, right. Dystopia, over 3/4 of the world live in it already mate. I just believe in a society where people are treated a little fairer. If that's achieved through reforms, that's cool. Free healthcare is a good start.

I don't mind discussing this with you, but you don't need to insult me, I don't know Kensai. It's not that unreasonable of me to ask if something someone says is true.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


Last edited by Mephaphil at Jan 22, 2013,
#55
Quote by jetwash69
I hope that's just dark humor.

But if not, maybe this will give you some hope:

I know a woman who is in her 50s with MS and is still going strong. Let's just say she's at the top in her field (think high-level public-sector executive) and in outstanding physical shape (she's still an athlete, even though that's just an amature pastime for her). She's had many struggles with MS, but she's been beating it with flying colors so far. She works at least 70 hours a week and she's raising two children on top of that. I don't know how long she's had MS, though. I wish you could meet her; she's truly an inspiration.

I also have an old friend whose wife got MS around 21 years ago. Last time we were in touch (a couple of years ago) she was still beating it.

Hang in there--it's a marathon.

Dude, I was talking about how the SM was destroying my body. ;_; stop treating me like I have a serious illness.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#56
Quote by Neo Evil11
English, but it was when I was 14 or so. I just saw a story about the formation of a totalitarian state after a revolution that was meant to end in an utopia, because of propaganda and abuse of power misformed it. Just like it did in Russia.

It's quite similar in my opinion to road to serfdom by Hayek.


edit: or do you mean by scarcity, the problem that the workers had too little while the chief pig had too much? I see that more as a distribution problem. Well you can actually call it a scarcity problem.


If you don't understand what I mean by the economic principal of scarcity, and if you've already taken a few college Econ classes, then I don't think I'll be able to explain it here. Really, everything in Econ hinges on this principal. If you don't understand that, then how can you make an informed evaluation of any politico-economic system?
#57
He means a culture of want want want in a world of limited resources.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


#58
Quote by Neo Evil11
Dude, I was talking about how the SM was destroying my body. ;_; stop treating me like I have a serious illness.

Why? that's how we treat you normally.
#59
Quote by jetwash69
If you don't understand what I mean by the economic principal of scarcity, and if you've already taken a few college Econ classes, then I don't think I'll be able to explain it here. Really, everything in Econ hinges on this principal. If you don't understand that, then how can you make an informed evaluation of any politico-economic system?

I'm almost donewith my master's degree in Economics.

It's a bit shit to say the book hinges on the principle of scarcity, whereas there are a million other terms you can name for this problem without making it same like it's the basic foundation of economics that's being discussed. The distribution of resources is indeed a main part of the law of scarcity'.

edit: It's their entire freedom that's being limited, not just their control over the goods.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
Last edited by Neo Evil11 at Jan 22, 2013,
#60
Quote by Neo Evil11
What has him not being finnish, have to do with the fact that he is dead?


I read his posts, he posts in the NFL thread, I made a joke that no one outside of the US watches Football. Therefore - Not Swedish. I called shenanigans.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


#61
Quote by Mephaphil
I read his posts, he posts in the NFL thread, I made a joke that no one outside of the US watches Football. Therefore - Not Swedish. I called shenanigans.

This supports our proof that he is dead mate. An American mod is currently controlling him.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#62
Quote by Neo Evil11
This supports our proof that he is dead mate. An American mod is currently controlling him.

WE HAVE TO GO DEEPER
#63
Quote by tukk04
WE HAVE TO GO DEEPER

That does decrease my life expectancy again though. Not too deep I hope.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#64
Quote by Neo Evil11
That does decrease my life expectancy again though. Not too deep I hope.

Oh just you wait.
Last edited by tukk04 at Jan 22, 2013,
#65
Quote by tukk04
Oh just you wait.

The waiting better not be longer than the actual deed again.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#66
Quote by Neo Evil11
The waiting better not be longer than the actual deed again.

Why do you always have to bring that up in front of the guise? Like really, you can't wait until later?
#67
Quote by huwford
Will people bitch about 49ers?

People already do.
ಠ_ಠ
#68
Quote by phlip999
People already do.

I c wot u did thar.

Quote by tukk04
Why do you always have to bring that up in front of the guise? Like really, you can't wait until later?

The problem is the waiting. So no, I can't wait. I have more people I want to have sex with. I hear Lindsay Lohan is addicted again so.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#69
Quote by Mephaphil
...I don't mind discussing this with you, but you don't need to insult me, I don't know Kensai. It's not that unreasonable of me to ask if something someone says is true.


No insult intended--just well intended ribbing; I sincerely apologize for that misunderstanding. You're clearly more mature than the people who are members of that UG group I mentioned.

I gotta go visit my local Guitar Center, so I'll make this quick:

I didn't ask you to justify anything. The closing question was rhetorical. I can see how you'd take that as a challenge though.

Animal Farm is just 1 example. While it was the spark for me, it certainly is not the entire basis. And what I said about scarcity and human nature would hold true even if Orwell had never been born.

Interestingly enough, I saw some of the same thought processes in your post that I went through in my adolescence. At this point you're still blaming external factors for the real-world failures of left-wing societies. You might want to consider all the reasons for those external factors. You also might want to take a closer look at the internal causes for the failure. For both of these, I'd suggest framing them from the perspectives of scarcity and human nature.

Judging by your profile and a few of your posts I've noticed over the years, we probably have a lot more in common than meets the eye. Gotta run, take care.
#70
Quote by Neo Evil11
I c wot u did thar.


The problem is the waiting. So no, I can't wait. I have more people I want to have sex with. I hear Lindsay Lohan is addicted again so.

I already called dibs on li-lo. So suck it.
#71
Quote by tukk04
I already called dibs on li-lo. So suck it.

I was going to suck it, but now you can say goodbye to sexy time.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#72
Quote by Neo Evil11
I was going to suck it, but now you can say goodbye to sexy time.

goddamn internets, making me cock block myself
#74
Quote by jetwash69
No insult intended--just well intended ribbing; I sincerely apologize for that misunderstanding. You're clearly more mature than the people who are members of that UG group I mentioned.

I gotta go visit my local Guitar Center, so I'll make this quick:

I didn't ask you to justify anything. The closing question was rhetorical. I can see how you'd take that as a challenge though.

Animal Farm is just 1 example. While it was the spark for me, it certainly is not the entire basis. And what I said about scarcity and human nature would hold true even if Orwell had never been born.

Interestingly enough, I saw some of the same thought processes in your post that I went through in my adolescence. At this point you're still blaming external factors for the real-world failures of left-wing societies. You might want to consider all the reasons for those external factors. You also might want to take a closer look at the internal causes for the failure. For both of these, I'd suggest framing them from the perspectives of scarcity and human nature.

Judging by your profile and a few of your posts I've noticed over the years, we probably have a lot more in common than meets the eye. Gotta run, take care.


No harm, no foul.

I'm not saying that the only reason for Stalin hijacking the revolution or Mao murdering millions of his own people is due to outside factors, but I think that with some help, it may not have gone so far south. There will be opportunists everywhere and those societies became State Capitalist very quickly. But there are many angles and I believe that the last 100 years has shown many examples of human evolution that has exceeded the expectations of Darwinism because social conscience wasn't understood then, and isn't now.

We aren't animals in a jungle. We're conscious, responsible and understanding of consequence. The vast majority of people live their lives in a good positive way that benefits lots of people, it's just a minority of people who happen to control everything in such a way that it doesn't matter what we do, as we're on a sinking ship.

I just think we have the ability to change in a positive way, whether or not we do or not is something that I don't have control over.

I'm not a Communist. I'm a Socialist. I'm also 28, I have a good job, I like my job and I think I'm good at it, but I believe in change, but I'd settle for many things less drastic than Communism. As I said, Healthcare for all in the US is a positive start for you guys, I'll start feeling happier when more is spent on welfare than defence.

What I discovered in my adolescene just made sense to me, I have become more educated on Economics, various political ideologies and history and yea, I see many correlations, but I also see the same hope I saw in my younger days.

Call me a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


#75
Quote by tukk04
goddamn internets, making me cock block myself

lol
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#76
I'll still be on here ;___;

Quote by jetwash69
If you've read Animal Farm and still don't get it, then I'm certainly not going to be able to break through. It's about the economic principal of scarcity and certain elements of human nature that are constant throughout all recorded human history. Certainly you've come across these ideas in your education, and yet you still believe utopia is achievable, just like you believed Kensai is really dead. Don't outgrow that one either.

How come every time people try to achieve utopia we end up with distopia instead?

George Orwell was a socialist you dingdong
Quote by Mephaphil
I read his posts, he posts in the NFL thread, I made a joke that no one outside of the US watches Football. Therefore - Not Swedish. I called shenanigans.

lol there are a lot of Europeans in that thread.
Quote by beadhangingOne
What happened to Snake?

Snake?

Snake?

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE?!


Quote by TunerAddict
you can take my mouse and keyboard from my cold, slightly orange from cheetos, dead fingers


Quote by Baby Joel
Isis is amazing
#77
Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55
I'll still be on here ;___;


George Orwell was a socialist you dingdong


Indeed he was, fighting in the Spanish Civil War no less. What a legend!

Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55
lol there are a lot of Europeans in that thread.


I love American Football. It's an awesome game, I watch it every week plus the midweek roundups.

But I'm in the minority, as usual :P
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


#78
Quote by jetwash69
No insult intended--just well intended ribbing; I sincerely apologize for that misunderstanding. You're clearly more mature than the people who are members of that UG group I mentioned.

I gotta go visit my local Guitar Center, so I'll make this quick:

I didn't ask you to justify anything. The closing question was rhetorical. I can see how you'd take that as a challenge though.

Animal Farm is just 1 example. While it was the spark for me, it certainly is not the entire basis. And what I said about scarcity and human nature would hold true even if Orwell had never been born.

Interestingly enough, I saw some of the same thought processes in your post that I went through in my adolescence. At this point you're still blaming external factors for the real-world failures of left-wing societies. You might want to consider all the reasons for those external factors. You also might want to take a closer look at the internal causes for the failure. For both of these, I'd suggest framing them from the perspectives of scarcity and human nature.

Judging by your profile and a few of your posts I've noticed over the years, we probably have a lot more in common than meets the eye. Gotta run, take care.



>says "over the years"
>talking to a 12er
Quote by captainsnazz
That's some nice hair you've got there.


I'm watching you.


Quote by BottleOfSmoke
If I was a rich man in 17th century Britain, I'd totally adopt Alec and make him my heir.

People say I tan easily, but that's just my Bronze showing through.
#79
Back!

Quote by Mephaphil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibson_SG_uzr55
...George Orwell was a socialist you dingdong


Indeed he was, fighting in the Spanish Civil War no less. What a legend!

That's the ironic part, innit? In his ferver to craft a compelling anti-Stalinist piece, he unraveled the flaw with the whole concept. He was vehemently against authoritarian socialism, favoring democratic socialism. Perhaps you need the context of the 50 to 63 years after his death to see how is attacks on the Soviet brand actually have universal application. Sure, it'll probably take another 50 - 100 years before there's airtight proof to my point, but there's plenty of examples already where well-intentioned socialist movements rapidly morphed into the authoritarian. Just look at Venezuela. That's just a fractioin of what I'm talking about regarding human nature. That isn't even getting into the other ways that socialism unintentionally exploits human nature to defeat the human spirit.

Quote by Mephaphil

No harm, no foul...



Quote by Mephaphil

...I'm not a Communist. I'm a Socialist...

Well, that's a start. However they're pretty darned close on the spectrum. So close that here's what one of "UG's Socialiasts" had to say about the difference between communism and socialism:
Quote by due07

there's no functioning difference. socialism just sounds better.

Not saying he's right, but it's pretty telling about where the run-of-the-mill college socialist is coming from these days.

Quote by Mephaphil

I'm also 28, I have a good job, I like my job and I think I'm good at it, but I believe in change, but I'd settle for many things less drastic than Communism.

Thought you just said you weren't Communist. Now you're saying you'd settle for things that are kind of Communist, but less drastic (which implies that Communism would be your actual blue sky end-state). WTFO?

Quote by Mephaphil
...As I said, Healthcare for all in the US is a positive start for you guys...

Shame it doesn't actually deliver that. It doesn't do anything to reduce the healthcare bubble, either--in fact it will drive up costs substantially and eliminate some of the few opportunities we had to lower costs. From an American perspective, the problem with our healthcare was affordability. Remember, the lower class already received Medicaid. 100% of the people I know in person who voted Democrat in 2008 are really pissed off about how they were hoodwinked over that one.

Quote by Mephaphil
...I'll start feeling happier when more is spent on welfare than defence. ...

So basically you're happy when more people are in such poverty that the government has to support them?
You're happy when more people are dependent on the government for basic subsistence?

Quote by Mephaphil
Call me a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you (like me) want to improve quality of life.

Thing is, we don't live in a dream world, but rather the real world. In this real world, driving people into dependence on their governments is not going to improve their quality of life by any measure over the long term. It's unsustainable.

We need to help people become more independent and give them incentives and opportunities to improve their own quality of life. Governments can't be the only ones doing that forever; for it to work over the long term it has to come from free markets.

It's been fun, but I have to switch back to academics--darned professional studies!
#80
Quote by smartalecG94
>says "over the years"
>talking to a 12er

Good catch. I guess I mixed him up with that dude with the animated gif of Che's head getting shot. Who was that guy anyway?