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#81
I have never heard of a fully Democratic Socialist state, so I have no idea what you are talking about. You haven't laid out any reason as to why a socialist state must become authoritarian in the end.
Quote by beadhangingOne
What happened to Snake?

Snake?

Snake?

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE?!


Quote by TunerAddict
you can take my mouse and keyboard from my cold, slightly orange from cheetos, dead fingers


Quote by Baby Joel
Isis is amazing
#82
In 2050 I'll be UG's leading columnist, specializing in the Rolling Stones concert reviews.
Quote by silhouettica
Oh, DON'T use a knife. It cuts through your strings. I did that once, thinking, its the Low E, its invincible. Turns out, its not...

Quote by Kensai
Awesome
#83
Quote by Angus_Junior35
In 2050 I'll be UG's leading columnist, specializing in the Rolling Stones concert reviews.


and the stones will still be around.
I just want to know that I did all I could with what I was given.
#84
Quote by jetwash69
If you've read Animal Farm and still don't get it, then I'm certainly not going to be able to break through. It's about the economic principal of scarcity and certain elements of human nature that are constant throughout all recorded human history. Certainly you've come across these ideas in your education, and yet you still believe utopia is achievable, just like you believed Kensai is really dead. Don't outgrow that one either.

How come every time people try to achieve utopia we end up with distopia instead?


This post gave me a heart attHNNNNNNG

#86
I haven't read this thread except for the past few posts about Animal Farm.

I love when people miss the point of that book entirely. It happens a lot with Homage to Catalonia as well. That book was described as anti-Communist and anti-Russian in some text book and I argued for ten minutes with people who had never read the book on what Orwell's real intentions were.
#87
I have never heard of a fully Democratic Socialist state, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
Orwell didn't like all socialism. He was a "democratic socialist." I never mentioned a "fully Democratic Socialist state," so I don't know what you're going on about either.

Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55

You haven't laid out any reason as to why a socialist state must become authoritarian in the end.

It's the nature of the beast.

I'm not using Animal Farm as a representation of George Orwell's thoughts--I'm using it because he unwittingly showed why no socialist system (or anything further to the left) can work. And so far history has been proving it.

Like I said from the first post where I mentioned Animal Farm, if you don't get it from reading that book then you probably won't get it.

Every response to that post continues to prove that point.

PM me when you've got a couple of degrees, had a couple of jobs, lived under various socioeconomic models and thought about it for 2 decades and change.
#88
Quote by jetwash69


PM me when you've got a couple of degrees, had a couple of jobs, lived under various socioeconomic models and thought about it for 2 decades and change.

Don't give me that condescending, "you'll see someday" bullshit. If you can't explain it, then your argument isn't worth fuck.
Quote by beadhangingOne
What happened to Snake?

Snake?

Snake?

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE?!


Quote by TunerAddict
you can take my mouse and keyboard from my cold, slightly orange from cheetos, dead fingers


Quote by Baby Joel
Isis is amazing
#89
If it's still here and I am.... I'll pop in and say hello

I'll be 63

****
Quote by lambofgod127
btw im in hs and im almost 18 so if u do think she was flirting with me dont say that its wrong im almost a grown man.




༼ ▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ ༽ WE ARE ROB ༼ ▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ ༽
#91
I'm sure we'd all be perma'd, dead or get lives by then.
Quote by joshua garcia
I was incredibly drunk and only really remember writing a fanfic where ESP was getting porked by a pony.

Quote by guitar0player
I'd honestly fap to anything with a set of genitals as long as I find it aesthetically appealing.
#92
I'll be 84 in 2050.
Dunno if I'd still be around by then, but if I am, I'm either gonna be a completely cantankerous old bastard or completely insane by then.
#93
Quote by SlackerBabbath
I'll be 84 in 2050.
Dunno if I'd still be around by then, but if I am, I'm either gonna be a completely cantankerous old bastard or completely insane by then.


Keyword there....
Quote by lambofgod127
btw im in hs and im almost 18 so if u do think she was flirting with me dont say that its wrong im almost a grown man.




༼ ▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ ༽ WE ARE ROB ༼ ▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ ༽
#94
I do hope i'm not still in the pit in 37 years. If I am I will have to have a long, hard look at my life.
455 75 34 88


(´・ω・`)


Quote by strait jacket
Do you like being sigged or, like me do you feel strangely violated?
#95
I have never heard of a fully Democratic Socialist state, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Orwell didn't like all socialism. He was a "democratic socialist." I never mentioned a "fully Democratic Socialist state," so I don't know what you're going on about either.


It's the nature of the beast.

I'm not using Animal Farm as a representation of George Orwell's thoughts--I'm using it because he unwittingly showed why no socialist system (or anything further to the left) can work. And so far history has been proving it.

Like I said from the first post where I mentioned Animal Farm, if you don't get it from reading that book then you probably won't get it.

Every response to that post continues to prove that point.

PM me when you've got a couple of degrees, had a couple of jobs, lived under various socioeconomic models and thought about it for 2 decades and change.

I'm sorry, but you have a little too much faith in George Orwell. Nor George Orwell, nor the more scientific "road to serfdom" by Hayek (nobel prize winner), have "proven"that it must become an authoritarian state.

I agree with you that there are a lot of reasons why it would probably end up like one, but it hasn't been proven by any scientific standard.

If I remember correctly, it has been shown that history isn't just a class struggle like Marx made it out to be though.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
Last edited by Neo Evil11 at Jan 23, 2013,
#96
Fucking 50'ers amirite?
I Have An Avant Garde Fetish....
Quote by Gantz92
Im in no way an amateur. I masturbate in public all the time.
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I can get an erection just by looking at a plastic cup, or a river.
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Don't worry, rape will always find a back way in
#97
Quote by adamgur96
Fucking 50'ers amirite?

No, it don't think the sperm and eggs can **** yet. Hell those in 2050 might be our children
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#98
Bitching about the 49ers?
I do that today.

**** San Fran.
BEWARE THE BANANA ARMY.

I SAY, I SAY, BEWARE THE BANANA ARMY.

They say when they finally attack, all the impostors will peel themselves. In order to tell if you have been assimilated, check for a zipper somewhere near your pelvis.


#100
Quote by mr.retard
the standard answers to questions will still be

i cum blood and you need a new amp

I ejaculate WD40*
You need a new signal reconstruction drive*

Because we will all be cyborgs who don't play instruments because we can generate whatever sound we're thinking of.
In which case, will UG have to change its name?
#101
Quote by Morphogenesis26
In 37 years Phils will finally post something relevant to a thread.

Hey!
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#103
Quote by captainsnazz
I ejaculate WD40*
You need a new signal reconstruction drive*

Because we will all be cyborgs who don't play instruments because we can generate whatever sound we're thinking of.
In which case, will UG have to change its name?

In 2050 guitar plays you!


;_;
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#105
Quote by SlackerBabbath
I'll be 84 in 2050.
Dunno if I'd still be around by then, but if I am, I'm either gonna be a completely cantankerous old bastard or completely insane by then.

Pup. I'll be 92 and still kicking punks off of my lawn.
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You should be careful what you say. Some asshole will probably sig it.

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Yup, a girl went up to me in my fursuit one time.

Quote by Xiaoxi
I can fap to this. Keep going.
#106
I'll be 57 in 2050. By then I probably would have gotten into a music program in college.
You are now using UG Black.
You are now using UG Classic.


Listening to: This jazz piano music playing over the PA like wow for once it's good stuff they're playing


What if blue cheese is just regular cheese but it's accelerating towards you really fast?
#107
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I'll be 57 in 2050. By then I probably would have gotten into a music program in college.

Omg you are young.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#108
Quote by jetwash69

It's the nature of the beast.

I'm not using Animal Farm as a representation of George Orwell's thoughts--I'm using it because he unwittingly showed why no socialist system (or anything further to the left) can work. And so far history has been proving it.

Like I said from the first post where I mentioned Animal Farm, if you don't get it from reading that book then you probably won't get it.

Every response to that post continues to prove that point.


I think you missed the point of the book. Re-read the preface.

Of course Orwell was walking about the Soviet Union, but he was also talking about England, FREE England, and again how "some animals are more equal than others". You're forgetting the fact that, at the time, England and the USSR were allies, and you're ignoring the totalitarian ideology of the capitalist state.

The book wasn't directly about socialism so much as authoritarian forms of government, their hegemonic ideology, and how they wield the state apparatus to their purpose. This can even been done in "free" capitalist states.

"The British press is extremely centralized, and most of it is owned by wealthy men who have every motive to be dishonest on certain important topics. But the same kind of veiled censorship also operates in books and periodicals, as well as in plays, films and radio. At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed that all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to say this, that or the other, but it is 'not done' to say it, just as in mid-Victorian times it was 'not done' to mention trousers in the presence of a lady. Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness." - Preface to Animal Farm Here's the entire text that goes further in depth

Quote by jetwash69
no socialist system (or anything further to the left) can work. And so far history has been proving it


Consider the free territories of the Ukraine, the libertarian-socialist Zapatistas in Chiapas, Mexico, and the Anarchist Catalonia, in Spain during the 30s.

Quote by jetwash69
PM me when you've got a couple of degrees, had a couple of jobs, lived under various socioeconomic models and thought about it for 2 decades and change.


This is an Appeal to Authority and is a logical fallacy.
This could also be considered ageism or an Ad hominem attack.
Must you be a 5 star general to be anti-war? No. If you can't make a valid argument against what someone says, you shouldn't attack who they are/aren't.
You don't not need to be an expert in any field to hold a valid opinion on anything, especially subjective issues such as social and economic politics. Claiming so shows a disdain for democracy and equality.
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#109
Quote by lateraluspiral
I think you missed the point of the book. Re-read the preface...

Re-read my posts. I obviously don't care what Orwell was intending when he wrote the book, his text inadvertently illustrates certain constants of human behavior that apply beyond Orwell's vision of the time.

If guys that thought as rigidly as you do ran 3M, then the world wouldn't have Post-It Notes because the guy who invented them wasn't trying to design a temporary adhesive, but rather something much stronger. At first he thought he had failed, but with a little free thinking they all realized they were onto something much better. Not that Post-It Notes are a very important invention, but it does make for a good case study in creativity.

Quote by lateraluspiral
...The book wasn't directly about socialism so much as authoritarian forms of government, their hegemonic ideology, and how they wield the state apparatus to their purpose. This can even been done in "free" capitalist states...

Socialism seeds the field for authoritarian government because it makes people dependent on the government and eventually the people with an inclination for abuse will work their way into power to take advantage. It's human nature and it's been constant throughout recorded history.

Quote by lateraluspiral
...Consider the free territories of the Ukraine, the libertarian-socialist Zapatistas in Chiapas, Mexico, and the Anarchist Catalonia, in Spain during the 30s...

Consider the lifespans of these examples. None of them prove your point. More importantly, every move toward socialism creates more distopia.

Quote by lateraluspiral
This is an Appeal to Authority and is a logical fallacy.
This could also be considered ageism or an Ad hominem attack.
Must you be a 5 star general to be anti-war? No. If you can't make a valid argument against what someone says, you shouldn't attack who they are/aren't.
You don't not need to be an expert in any field to hold a valid opinion on anything, especially subjective issues such as social and economic politics. Claiming so shows a disdain for democracy and equality.

1. Are you mistaking this casual internet forum for a formal debate competition?
2. You missed my point again. Look back to my original post in this thread. My fundamental point was that leftist ideology is a common trait of adolescense and that many people who feel very strongly in favor of it today will not by 2020, much less 2050.
3. Although a few people are taking it as condescending, or an authoritative approach, it is really a statement of, let's see whether you still feel that way over time. As a wild-ass guess, I'd put the odds at 50-50. Clearly I didn't intend it as an authoritative argument since I'm well aware that some of the people with multiple PhDs and far more life experience would still disagree with me, event though many others with equal pedigrees agree.

Well, gotta go back to work, no time for spell check.
#111
Quote by jetwash69

1. Are you mistaking this casual internet forum for a formal debate competition?

No, but an appeal to authority or an ad hominem attack are still logical fallacies. Of course this is a casual internet forum debate, but appealing to the lowest common denominator is still bad debating and completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make.

Whether formal or informal, these aren't valid points.

Quote by jetwash69
2. You missed my point again. Look back to my original post in this thread. My fundamental point was that leftist ideology is a common trait of adolescense and that many people who feel very strongly in favor of it today will not by 2020, much less 2050.

This is conjecture. In my experience, all the kids are libertarians, so should I disregard libertarianism as stupid adolescent reasoning? No, because who thinks what is irrelevant to the content of the ideology. Perhaps we're both experiencing a confirmation bias?.

Regardless, your assertions that leftist ideology is a common trait of adolescence is irrelevant to the ideology as well, and is again, ageism and an appeal to authority. Can you critique the ideology in some way other than repeatedly stating how much you disagree with it, or that only young people are attracted to it?

Quote by jetwash69
3. Although a few people are taking it as condescending, or an authoritative approach, it is really a statement of, let's see whether you still feel that way over time. As a wild-ass guess, I'd put the odds at 50-50. Clearly I didn't intend it as an authoritative argument since I'm well aware that some of the people with multiple PhDs and far more life experience would still disagree with me, event though many others with equal pedigrees agree.

How is how guessing someone feels over time relevant to the discussion of ideology? "Oh, I'll get older! Why didn't I think of that?" This won't convince anyone to change their mind.

It's just as dumb as me saying "you'll grow out of your right-wing leanings, just give it time". Not only is it conjecture, but it obfuscates the true meaning and implications of your ideology, whatever it may happen to be.

Quote by jetwash69
Re-read my posts. I obviously don't care what Orwell was intending when he wrote the book, his text inadvertently illustrates certain constants of human behavior that apply beyond Orwell's vision of the time.

We'll you seem to care, if you used it as an example of why socialism doesn't work. His text illustrates constants of human behavior such as the corrupting power of authority, whether socialist or capitalist, which he states pretty blatantly in the preface.

Quote by jetwash69
If guys that thought as rigidly as you do ran 3M, then the world wouldn't have Post-It Notes because the guy who invented them wasn't trying to design a temporary adhesive, but rather something much stronger. At first he thought he had failed, but with a little free thinking they all realized they were onto something much better. Not that Post-It Notes are a very important invention, but it does make for a good case study in creativity.

I don't grasp the meaning of you writing this paragraph. Is this another ad hominem attack, entirely baseless? What makes you think I think "rigidly" or am un-creative? Elaborate, please.

Quote by jetwash69
Socialism seeds the field for authoritarian government because it makes people dependent on the government and eventually the people with an inclination for abuse will work their way into power to take advantage. It's human nature and it's been constant throughout recorded history.

Socialism is an economic system based on worker ownership of production, not an authoritative form of government. If you're suggesting that corruption is a constant throughout recorded history, I'll agree, but corruption and greed are not the problem. The problem is the system that is enables people to be corrupt and greedy for private purposes at the expense of the majority. Not all socialists believe in nationalizing industries, and many are for direct worker control and oppose the state.. Again, an economic system in no way guarantees any certain form of government.

There are capitalist dictatorships and autocratic regimes, should I imply that capitalism is authoritative? Capitalism doesn't need democracy any more than socialism needs an authoritative state.

I'd also like to add that capitalism makes people dependent on the government. Capitalism depends on welfare to serve its purposes. Since capitalism requires competition for profit, it follows that a large portion of the population will be pushed aside into unemployment or underemployment. This is where the welfare state comes in. Without welfare, poor people would begin questioning the capitalist economic system and would become so arrogant as to seek economic and social justice. Through welfare, the state can keep povery down, and it keep the poor alive without affecting the system that put them into poverty.

The welfare state is the true right-wing counter-revolutionary apparatus, not a leftist one.

Quote by jetwash69
Consider the lifespans of these examples. None of them prove your point. More importantly, every move toward socialism creates more distopia.

The EZLN in Mexico is still autonomous to this day.

The Anarchist in Spain were crushed by imperialists, but they were an example of really existing and flourishing anarchism and in no way were a distopia by any stretch of the imagination. The Bolsheviks saw the Free Territory in the Ukraine as a threat to their power and launched a propaganda campaign against them before defeating them. Their lifespan doesn't equate to their economic and social realities, because they were defeated through brute military strength, not economic failure.

Isn't suggesting that leftist ideas are distopian imply that we already live in the most equal economic system there is? The Fukuyamean approach to the capitalist "end of history"; that we live in the best of all possible worlds is the true utopian ideology.
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Last edited by lateraluspiral at Jan 23, 2013,
#112
Quote by Jackal58
Pup. I'll be 92 and still kicking punks off of my lawn.


What about the deer?
#113
Quote by JackalUK
What about the deer?

They'll still go in my freezer.
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
You should be careful what you say. Some asshole will probably sig it.

Quote by Axelfox
Yup, a girl went up to me in my fursuit one time.

Quote by Xiaoxi
I can fap to this. Keep going.
#115
Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55
I have never heard of a fully Democratic Socialist state, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
I'm sorry, but you have a little too much faith in George Orwell. Nor George Orwell, nor the more scientific "road to serfdom" by Hayek (nobel prize winner), have "proven"that it must become an authoritarian state.

I agree with you that there are a lot of reasons why it would probably end up like one, but it hasn't been proven by any scientific standard.

If I remember correctly, it has been shown that history isn't just a class struggle like Marx made it out to be though.


Did you just call Road to Serfdom scientific?

lol
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

If women can be annoyed there arent any women incongress I should be allowed to be pissed off there are no members of pink floyd or the beatles in congress.
#116
SHUT THE **** UP WITH YOUR SOCIO-POLITICAL ARGUMENTS.
OT: God, in 2050 I'll be...57. Already retired. Sweet
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
"Trans Princess". You're bitching over nothing, and you know it.
#117
Quote by Jackal58
Pup. I'll be 92 and still kicking punks off of my lawn.


I'll be 90.
And still posting stupid shit in The Pit.

Now...

#118
Quote by jetwash69
Are you on drugs?


No response?
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#120
Quote by lateraluspiral
No response?

Well, are you on drugs? Because that would explain your whacky post. It would also explain why you seem to keep missing my points. Or maybe you're just butthurt because I:

a. Had the gall to point out the common knowledge that a lot of people tend to slide from the left side of the political spectrum to the right as they mature/age.

and

b. Turned one of your favorite weapons against you.

At any rate, I find it hysterical how everybody who's reesponded negatively makes all these wild assumptions of what I do support instead of socialism. I find it even more humorous that they've tried to disprove a pattern of statements that I made to be so general that they really can't be empircally proven or disproven.

Y'all really need to get over yourselves. But in the meantime you'll provide a steady stream of entertainment.