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#1
Are these based off the Major Or Minor scale? What key are they in? I need help from somebody to explain these modes below to me and how i can use them? Having trouble grasping the concept...
#3
In all honesty those diagrams are useless - a bunch of unlabelled dots with no context ie telling you what you're playing or where you're playing it are pretty much meaningless, you're not going to learn anything from the "information" that's been presented there.

I'm not surprised you're struggling to make sense of it, because in that format there's nothing of any value to make sense of.

As far as shapes go they're ALL THE SAME shape, just bits of it, and also the same as both the major AND minor scales - and a shape alone doesn't tell you anything. Without some background information, meat to put on those bones, you've got nothing - you need to also be looking at the notes involved, the intervals between them and, most important of all, the SOUNDS you're working with
Actually called Mark!

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#4
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

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I want to be Hail when I grow up.
#7
Dude, hurry up. If you can't answer that, you're DEFINITELY not ready for modes.

End of.
#10
1) Stop treating modes as scales. Modes are NOT scales. You need to understand that there's two types of music here: tonal (which is great for scales and chords and such, but allows you to play any notes you choose) and modal (which ONLY includes the notes of a particular mode).

2) Also, box shapes are bad. Treating anything like it fits in a box is bad. You're much better off understanding what the intervals mean than memorizing some box shape. You open so much more if you see the guitar as a horizontal thing (meaning, you can play any key, scale, mode rather than a box shape). Seeing the guitar as a bunch of different boxes is so...limiting.

3) They're in any damn key you want. If you really must use those box shapes, then just pick a position on the fretboard and play. As I said above, you'd be much better off understanding the intervals of those modes and understanding that modal and tonal music are completely different!


Imho, purely modal music is limiting as well. In my compositions, people can probably hear a "flavor" of the modes. However, it's tonal music. Why? Because I don't ONLY play the notes that fit the 7 intervals of a particular mode.
Why should I be limited by something as stupid as the fact that I cannot play a 5th interval in that particular mode? I shouldn't. So, I fake being modal, because it gives me more musical freedom and I like the sound of it.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 24, 2013,
#11
Quote by Hail

Lol.

Also, TS, to answer your question, they are in the key of ghey. That's for the majority's benefit, though.

I personally like them. They're cool.
Last edited by mdc at Jan 24, 2013,
#12
Come on mdc, you can do better than that. Ghey minor, or ghey major?
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
#13
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
1) Stop treating modes as scales. Modes are NOT scales.


Well, that's a confusing thing to say! They're clearly scales, they're just not "in a key".

Scales are essentially a group of notes with a tonic (aka "root note"). Modes are easily included in that definition. Just because there are certain scales (major scale, nat. minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor) that form a certain system of "keys", it doesn't mean that any other scale you can find somehow doesn't get called a "scale" at all.

Sorry, but if we're going to correct someone, lets not just be introducing even more confusion
#14
Modes are not scales. Keys are not scales.
Neither scales, nor modes, nor keys have root notes.

Scales are a set of tones ordered by pitch. Scales have no tonic, they just have a start note and an end note. Any series of any number of pitches ordered by pitch is a scale.

A key is a set of tones where one tone - the tonic - is the tone that all other tones in the key gravitate towards. This tone is established as the most important tone by means of functional harmony.
A mode is a set of tones and a set of characteristic melodies. The mode is established by means of these melodies rather than by functional harmony.

Root notes relate to chords formed from three or more tones. The root note of these chord is the note that the chord is built on by the process of stacking thirds. The root note is not necessarily the lowest tone in the chord (the bass note).
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
#15
I'm not an expert but I think the confusion stems from the interpration of modes as scales that's common in modern music theory.

Wikipedia:

The modern Lydian musical scale is a rising pattern of pitches comprising three whole tones, a semitone, two more whole tones, and a final semitone. This sequence of pitches roughly describes the fifth of the eight Gregorian (church) modes, known as Mode V or the authentic mode on F, theoretically using B♮ but in practice more commonly featuring B♭


So basically you have the Lydian mode (example) which isn't really useful to most people, and then the Lydian scale which is more relevant to tonal theory and which I think it's fair to say is a useful tool, especially if you aren't too comfortable with theory and just want to have more fun jamming/writing.
#16
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
1)
box shapes are bad.


While I agree knowing the intervals is way more important, all of the shapes in OP are essential to learn well IMO. They're the most efficient way over the strings a given position, there's and almost unlimited amount of licks that can be composed easily and efficiently in any key, as well as all the chordal possibilities. To dismiss them as "bad" is a bit rough.
#17
I think I'd agree with that. Box shapes (like CAGED chords, stock arpeggios, &c.) have a purpose - to get you started. If you're not that bothered about being the world's best guitarist and just want to jam with a few mates, or play along to some backing tracks they're just fine at what they do. If you're interested in taking things a bit further then you can supersede the box-shapes by learning and applying theory.
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
#18
i want to be angry that people think modal scales are useful (or scales at all) but i'm so happy we've made it this far, MT. i think i'm tearing up a little
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

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#19
After spending a few days in the pit, I can say that this is a great thread to come back to MT to
#20
Quote by Tempoe
While I agree knowing the intervals is way more important, all of the shapes in OP are essential to learn well IMO. They're the most efficient way over the strings a given position, there's and almost unlimited amount of licks that can be composed easily and efficiently in any key, as well as all the chordal possibilities. To dismiss them as "bad" is a bit rough.

You can do a whole lot more by getting out of box shapes though.

Quote by Sleepy__Head
I think I'd agree with that. Box shapes (like CAGED chords, stock arpeggios, &c.) have a purpose - to get you started.

I would agree with this, I suppose. But if you continue using them after that "getting started" point, you're not doing it right. Stagnation in musical learning is never good, as there's always more to learn.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 25, 2013,
#21
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
You can do a whole lot more by getting out of box shapes though.


I would agree with this, I suppose. But if you continue using them after that "getting started" point, you're not doing it right. Stagnation in musical learning is never good, as there's always more to learn.


Well like I said, I think it all depends on what you want to do. From what I see on MT the majority of regular contributors are into self improvement, but I can understand that not everyone is that bothered about getting any further than being able to play a basic solo or chords.

I think if you're into trying to be the best then it's probably better to start somewhere else than learning stock patterns (getting a decent teacher would be the best thing you could do, IMO), but if you happen to start by learning box patterns it's not the end of the world and shouldn't hold you back if you decide you want to get better.
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
#22
A mode is in whatever key it's intended tonic is.

Those charts are generic finger patterns for the 7 basic modes regardless of key, all starting on the same root. You can play those patterns anywhere.
#23
Aargh!

A modal scale is in whatever key you're in.
A mode can't be in a key because keys and modes are exclusive musical concepts. If you're in me you're not in the other, and vice versa.
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
#24
I don't think anybody is talking about chanting music. The idea of modes as completely separate from scales and keys is anachronistic.

Modes as they relate to guitars and modern music are about interval relationships relative to the tonic. I wouldn't call E mixolydian a key in itself, but you can certainly say that you're playing the mixolydian mode in the key of E.
#25
Quote by Sleepy__Head
Well like I said, I think it all depends on what you want to do. From what I see on MT the majority of regular contributors are into self improvement, but I can understand that not everyone is that bothered about getting any further than being able to play a basic solo or chords.

I think if you're into trying to be the best then it's probably better to start somewhere else than learning stock patterns (getting a decent teacher would be the best thing you could do, IMO), but if you happen to start by learning box patterns it's not the end of the world and shouldn't hold you back if you decide you want to get better.

This is definitely true. But, as you said, getting a good teacher would be best. I personally always had a problem finding a good teacher. I had 1 good one, out of the 5 I had. Imho, a teacher should teach you the basics and then give you the skills to learn what you want to learn on your own.

Quote by cdgraves
I don't think anybody is talking about chanting music. The idea of modes as completely separate from scales and keys is anachronistic.

Modes as they relate to guitars and modern music are about interval relationships relative to the tonic. I wouldn't call E mixolydian a key in itself, but you can certainly say that you're playing the mixolydian mode in the key of E.

Or you could just say that you're playing the mixolydian mode with E as the tonic, which is technically a more correct way to state it.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 25, 2013,
#26
or you can just say you're playing a fucking scale and worry about more important things in the song cause if it's simple enough for you to break down to 7 notes odds are it's either got an interesting ass rhythm or it's absolutely terrible
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#27
Quote by Sleepy__Head
Modes are not scales. Keys are not scales.
Neither scales, nor modes, nor keys have root notes.


Again, this seems to be intentionally confusing.

Yes, a "root note" refers to a note in a chord, and "tonic" technically refers to the note that is gravitated towards in tonal harmony...but how does any of that help TS? Seriously?

I gave both "root note" and "tonic" because they get called by both names and I was trying to be as easy to understand as possible.

I think sometimes people forget that people come here and ask questions to learn things, rather than to see a bunch of musicians argue over semantics
#28
Are we talking about writing an analysis of classical music or actually communicating in a playing situation? Use of terminology depends on who you're talking to.
#29
Quote by chainsawguitar
Again, this seems to be intentionally confusing.

Yes, a "root note" refers to a note in a chord, and "tonic" technically refers to the note that is gravitated towards in tonal harmony...but how does any of that help TS? Seriously?

I gave both "root note" and "tonic" because they get called by both names and I was trying to be as easy to understand as possible.

I think sometimes people forget that people come here and ask questions to learn things, rather than to see a bunch of musicians argue over semantics


it's an incredibly important distinction because it helps the beginner separate "the first note" from the most consonant. if people knew the difference between roots and tonics, i think this whole modes mess would be a lot easier to break down.

Quote by cdgraves
Are we talking about writing an analysis of classical music or actually communicating in a playing situation? Use of terminology depends on who you're talking to.


i've opted to be a solo artist because of people like you who think you're above the law

music theory beat cop on tha case
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

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I want to be Hail when I grow up.
#30
Intentionally: No. Confusing - I dunno, it made sense to me

I believe the problem is that the OP has asked a different question to the one they want answered.

Probably what the OP wants to know is: "If my friend is playing a C chord, or a progression in the key of C, which one of these scales do I need to play?"

To which the answer is:

The Ionian starting on C;
The Dorian starting on D;
The Phrygian starting on E;
The Lydian starting on F;
The Mixolydian starting on G;
The Aeolian starting on A;
The Locrian starting on B.

The answer to the actual question ("are they based on major or minor scales? what key are they in?" is actually something like ...

Let's take the scale of C major as a reference point:

CDEFGABC

The Ionian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 1st note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be CDEFGABC.
The Dorian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 2nd note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be DEFGABCD.
The Phrygian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 3rd note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be EFGABCDE.
The Lydian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 4th note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be FGABCDEF.
The Mixolydian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 5th note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be GABCDEFG.
The Aeolian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 6th note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be ABCDEFGA.
The Locrian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 7th note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be BCDEFGAG.

In Western music there is one major scale.
The major scale is the same as the Ionian scale (e.g. CDEFGABC).

In Western music there are also three minor scales: Natural minor, Harmonic minor, and Melodic minor.
The natural minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode (e.g. ABCDEFGA).
The harmonic minor has a sharp 7th note (e.g. ABCDEFG#A).
The melodic minor consists of an ascending scale and a descending scale.
The ascending melodic minor scale has a sharp 6th and 7th note: (e.g. ABCDEF#G#A).
The descending melodic minor scale is the same as the natural minor, so it's the same as the Aeolian mode (e.g. AGFEDCBA).
So the entire melodic minor scale has a sharp 6th and 7th on the way up, and they are flattened on the way down (e.g. ABCDEF#G#A (up) AGFEDCBA (down))

So what key are they in?

Well that depends on a few things. If you just play a major scale on its own with no accompaniment (no chords) then it's in the key of the starting note.
So our reference scale is in C, so all these are 'in C'.

However ...

If you record a progression of F Am C F and play a C scale over that it's now in the key of F Major because the C > F chord change is in the key of F Major.
And if you record a progression of F# A#m C# F# and play a C scale over that you could say that the chords are in F# Major and the scale is in C Major, or (depending on how the music sounds) that there isn't any real sense of key at all and that therefore none of it is in a key at all.

So a scale isn't necessarily in any key.
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
#31
Quote by cdgraves
Are we talking about writing an analysis of classical music or actually communicating in a playing situation? Use of terminology depends on who you're talking to.


Both because analyses of classical music and communicating are not necessarily exclusive.

Look, why don't we try throwing this back to the OP.

OP: We see that you don't understand the diagrams and we're all in agreement that the diagrams are a bunch of horseshit. What we don't know is what you're trying to achieve with the diagrams. Did you want to know about exercises for getting better, are you trying to learn about scales and how that relates to playing solos, or are you just a beginner trying to get some basic advice about how to play that guitar you just got bought for your birthday? Give us something a bit more specific and we might be able to help you a bit better.
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
#32
yeah, bite size theory stuff tends not to make much sense. Modes are something you should learn, but they aren't something you go out and play. It's just good to have patterns under your fingers so you know exactly where you are at all times.
#33
Modes aren't in keys, my friend. Modes are modes, keys are keys.

Also, that diagram is useless. :/
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#34
I feel like OP went on vacation here. I mean, unless he has some specific questions or something...

We certainly can't help him like this. Although, I do hope he at least gets modes are NOT in keys now.
#35
Ok. I did a guitar lesson on skype with Josh Middleton from Sylosis last saturday. I asked him for some excerises that would build technique and i wanted to learn a bit of theory so i could understand how he plays the way he does so fluently. He pulled up these diagrams and sent them to me and told me to practice them. As far as theory i'm not expert. I just wanted to see if i could get some kind of help from peeps on this forum. Thank you for those who did explain. It seemed to me though that it turned into an arguement as oppsed to actually helping me out. I just don't know where to start. I guess learning the C major scale would be a good idea?
#36
I've been playing for 5 years. I just went the route of looking tabs up on this website. That's how i learned most of what I know. I just am at a point where, I'm ready to start learning more about my guitar. I spend hours and hours a day playing and i enjoy it.
#37
Sadly you've just had first hand experience of the old saying that good players don't always make good teachers. Honestly, what he's sent you there is useless both from a theory point of view and also a technique point of view.

It's probably best to start at the beginning, so how much theory do you actually understand at the moment - do you know the notes on your fretboard?
Actually called Mark!

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#38
Quote by SReed87
Ok. I did a guitar lesson on skype with Josh Middleton from Sylosis last saturday. I asked him for some excerises that would build technique and i wanted to learn a bit of theory so i could understand how he plays the way he does so fluently. He pulled up these diagrams and sent them to me and told me to practice them. As far as theory i'm not expert. I just wanted to see if i could get some kind of help from peeps on this forum. Thank you for those who did explain. It seemed to me though that it turned into an arguement as oppsed to actually helping me out. I just don't know where to start. I guess learning the C major scale would be a good idea?


What Steven said.

Also ...

What do you want to get out of guitar playing? Do you want to see an overall improvement, or are you looking for something specific? Are you looking to play mainly improvised solos, or are you more of a rhythm guy? Can you give us a bit more info about your aims?
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
#39
Quote by steven seagull
...good players don't always make good teachers.


This. 1000%

Some of the best players I've come across also happen to be the worst teachers in the world!
#40
Quote by SReed87
Ok. I did a guitar lesson on skype with Josh Middleton from Sylosis last saturday. I asked him for some excerises that would build technique and i wanted to learn a bit of theory so i could understand how he plays the way he does so fluently. He pulled up these diagrams and sent them to me and told me to practice them. As far as theory i'm not expert. I just wanted to see if i could get some kind of help from peeps on this forum. Thank you for those who did explain. It seemed to me though that it turned into an arguement as oppsed to actually helping me out. I just don't know where to start. I guess learning the C major scale would be a good idea?

Well **** me, you came back, then?! So, this time, what's the interval between B and D?
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