Are pit bulls naturally vicious to humans or is it due to bad owners?

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#81
Quote by MadClownDisease
My post a few posts above has a few ideas on the matter.

I think essentially it could be a combination of selective reinforcement (on the cases that are reported/remembered), that due to their build they'd do a lot of damage if they attacked (so even if they attack less than others, you'd hear more about it), and it being a self-fulfilling prophecy (people think they're violent, so people who want a violent dog get one and make it violent).


That's not to say it might not be that they're naturally aggressive or dangerous, but just a few thoughts on why they might give that impression.

EDIT:

Funnily enough, Argentine Dogos are actually banned in the UK.


However, apparently so are pit bulls, which is what I don't understand as Staffordshire bull terriers are legal and according to wiki they're pit bulls...
Quote by primusfan
someone made the point up there that it's more the damage a pitbull can do due to their sheer size and strength in comparison to other breeds.

i agree with you, but i also think that's a fair counterpoint.

So really it's probably a combination of everything. The type of person who wants a pit bill is kind of a shitty dog owner (obviously on a case by case basis as there's probably a lot of pit bull owners that are great). When you have that type of owner combined with a dog that tends to be more aggressive an attack is more likely. And due to the strength and aggressiveness of the dogs, the attack is more grusome which attracts media coverage. That gives all pit bulls the image of being brutal killers
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#82
Quote by bondmorkret
I'd disagree. People don't want to read about family dogs mauling kids, because it makes them uncomfortable about their own dog, so the papers don't report it. Or at least when they do, it gets much less of a prominent position. When it's a bull breed, it's front page news, because we want more evidence to support the commonly held view that these dogs are dangerous and should be banned. It just sells more papers.

Do you really think that a news station would ignore a lab attack? With how sensationalist the news is that's the type of thing they'd love. They'd love true headline "will your dog kill you in your sleep? Find out more at eleven."
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#83
Quote by lushacrous
Yeah sure, I'll say that people shouldn't pal around with those dogs either. I'm sure the way you feel about dogs is pretty similar to how the dude from Grizzly Man felt about bears.

Last time I checked my dog isn't a 7 foot, 600lbs wild animal lol. No offense dude but are you really that afraid of medium to larger breed dogs? Do you genuinely think all these dogs are so dangerous or are you just doing it to provide a counter point? Do you climb up trees when a St. Bernard or a Great Dane walks your way? Why don't you build an army of Chihuahuas and Corgis to protect you from your made up danger...
Last edited by LightxGrenade at Jan 28, 2013,
#84
I think the news works a little different in the UK. I can completely see how that would happen in America! I even read that in an American accent in my head.

I've seen so many reports on bull breeds and they're always front page. The last report of a typical family dog was a jack russell and it was a tiny report in the middle of the paper with no sensationalist headline to speak of.
#85
Quote by bondmorkret
I think the news works a little different in the UK. I can completely see how that would happen in America! I even read that in an American accent in my head.

I've seen so many reports on bull breeds and they're always front page. The last report of a typical family dog was a jack russell and it was a tiny report in the middle of the paper with no sensationalist headline to speak of.

If a Jack Russell killed a small child I guarantee it would be news, regardless of the culture.
*-)
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i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#86
Quote by LightxGrenade
Last time I checked my dog isn't a 7 foot, 600lbs wild animal lol. No offense dude but are you really that afraid of medium to larger breed dogs? Do you genuinely think all these dogs are so dangerous or are you just doing it to provide a counter point? Do you climb up trees when a St. Bernard or a Great Dane walks your way? Why don't you build an army of Chihuahuas and Corgis to protect you from your made up danger...

Ok, you won me over. I no longer think it's dangerous to have a pet that can kill you or other people that come into your life.
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#87
Quote by LightxGrenade
Last time I checked my dog isn't a 7 foot, 600lbs wild animal lol. No offense dude but are you really that afraid of medium to larger breed dogs? Do you genuinely think all these dogs are so dangerous or are you just doing it to provide a counter point? Do you climb up trees when a St. Bernard or a Great Dane walks your way? Why don't you build an army of Chihuahuas and Corgis to protect you from your made up danger...
St. Bernards and Great Danes aren't ****ing killing machines, unlike Pitbulls.
#88
Why would you get a Pitbull when you could get something that is cute and cuddly

Also, English Setters are the best dogs
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#89
Quote by Shenlong
St. Bernards and Great Danes aren't ****ing killing machines, unlike Pitbulls.

>Implying Pitbulls are killing machines.

#90
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
>Implying Pitbulls are killing machines.
>Implying Pitbulls aren't killing machines.
#91
Quote by element4433
So really it's probably a combination of everything. The type of person who wants a pit bill is kind of a shitty dog owner (obviously on a case by case basis as there's probably a lot of pit bull owners that are great). When you have that type of owner combined with a dog that tends to be more aggressive an attack is more likely. And due to the strength and aggressiveness of the dogs, the attack is more grusome which attracts media coverage. That gives all pit bulls the image of being brutal killers

Really it's this
Quote by element4433
So if it's purely the owner, why do you only hear about pit bull attacks and not attacks from other dogs?

Is it the dog or the type of person who is attracted to them?

I hear of dog bites all the time that aren't Pit Bulls. The media doesn't give a shit if it isn't a Pit Bull though.

I'll be watching the local news, the headlines may read "dog bite victim" where they will state the breed later. Or it will read "pit bull attack". The media instigates the stigma.
Quote by lushacrous
I don't care if the pit bull that you own or the only one you have ever seen has never done anything harmful, I don't see the point in owning one not for protection. Even nice dogs can snap and go insane just like people can, so why in that instance would you want your family dog to be one that is evolutionarily trained to kill stuff bigger and stronger than it instead of one that you know, maybe won't rip your face off? Maybe I'm just talking out my ass here but I honestly don't understand it.

Don't worry, you are Does this look dangerous?


Quote by garden of grey
Everyone says this but my sister had her face torn apart pretty bad when she was four when she was playing with a pitbull. It was at a rich persons house with a tennis court in the back and a nanny, this dog was not being neglected or poorly treated.

My mom got robbed by a black guy once, are black guys naturally disposed to crime?
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#92
It's both, but the fact that there has been systematic inbreeding to exacerbate violent tendencies and capabilities has done the animals no favors, either in temperament or mental stability.

The fantasy that you can train any dog to be well-behaved and harmless and that they will always remain that way is horribly false.


Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55


I hear of dog bites all the time that aren't Pit Bulls. The media doesn't give a shit if it isn't a Pit Bull though.



Perhaps because it usually is?

Pit Bulls account for more than half the fatal dog attacks every year, with the second most common breed being Rottweilers.

It's not media hype, it's reality.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Jan 28, 2013,
#93
Quote by Shenlong
>Implying Pitbulls aren't killing machines.

Prove it. Give me some study that proves there's something wrong with the instincts/pysche of a pitbull that makes it a killing machine.
#94
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Prove it. Give me some study that proves there's something wrong with the instincts/pysche of a pitbull that makes it a killing machine.


There's nothing 'wrong' with their instincts, (wrong and instinct are really contradictory concepts...) but to deny that they have been bred for many decades to be violent, aggressive and physically capable of carnage is to deny fact.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#95
Quote by Arby911
wrong and instinct are really contradictory concepts...
Implying instinctional behaviour somehow can't be 'bad' behaviour.
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#96
Quote by Arby911
It's both, but the fact that there has been systematic inbreeding to exacerbate violent tendencies and capabilities has done the animals no favors, either in temperament or mental stability.

The fantasy that you can train any dog to be well-behaved and harmless and that they will always remain that way is horribly false.


Perhaps because it usually is?

Pit Bulls account for more than half the fatal dog attacks every year, with the second most common breed being Rottweilers.

It's not media hype, it's reality.

You ignored the next part of the post when I said the media reacts differently to Pit Bull attacks vs. non-Pit attacks. Also, MadClownDisease summed it up perfectly, it's a combination of everything. Pits have suitable physical attributes for fighting, so "tough guys" and assholes get these dogs and raise them to be assholes. Stigma is created, and the cycle continues.


Besides, it's those sheep dogs you gotta watch out for. Furry bastards
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#97
Quote by the bartender
Implying instinctional behaviour somehow can't be 'bad' behaviour.


Not implying that at all, pretty much saying it outright.

Undesirable to me, others, the owner, society etc... perhaps, but to put a moral judgement on an instinctive action is foolish.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#98
Pit Bull attacks are staged by the government to take away our right to own dogs. Wake up sheeple :/
#99
Quote by Weaponized
Pit Bull attacks are staged by the government to take away our right to own dogs. Wake up sheeple :/

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#100
Quote by lushacrous
Ok, you won me over. I no longer think it's dangerous to have a pet that can kill you or other people that come into your life.

People can kill other people, that doesn't mean I run away with my dick tucked in between my legs every time a stranger walks up to me. You act like Pits are bred to be killers but they aren't and to act like they are, it's really just plain stubbornness. You don't want to admit that they're just normal dogs with a bad rap, but hey plenty of people hate things they don't understand or have a fixed view on that are unwilling to budge.
I can't help but find it ironic though that I live in a country where people view wonderful dogs as killing machines even though they have to specifically be trained to be that way by HUMANS but yet there's people literally stating that they will try and incite a civil war if new gun laws are enacted and we don't even bat an eyelash at it. It's amazing.
A dog when raised properly is practically harmless = terrible threat to our safety.
A person who owns enough guns to arm a small militia = just exercising his/her right to bear arms
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Last edited by LightxGrenade at Jan 28, 2013,
#101
Quote by LightxGrenade
People can kill other people, that doesn't mean I run away with my dick tucked in between my legs every time a stranger walks up to me. You act like Pits are bred to be killers but they aren't and to act like they are, it's really just plain stubbornness. You don't want to admit that they're just normal dogs with a bad rap, but hey plenty of people hate things they don't understand or have a fixed view on that are unwilling to budge.


That's because many of them were, and for a very long time, and in some parts of the world (even some parts of the US) they still are.

Pretending that's not true is willful self-deception. You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Pits are responsible for well over half of the dog attack fatalities in the US and they are 'just normal dogs'?

Utter nonsense. Take off the blinders.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#103
Quote by Arby911
That's because many of them were, and for a very long time, and in some parts of the world (even some parts of the US) they still are.

Pretending that's not true is willful self-deception. You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Pits are responsible for well over half of the dog attack fatalities in the US and they are 'just normal dogs'?

Utter nonsense. Take off the blinders.

You being anti-Pit Bull is rich, since you are a gun nut, aren't you?
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Snake?

Snake?

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE?!


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#104
You will likely have equal numbers on both sides of the debate. The owners who say "they are the sweetest dogs in the world" and the others who are not convinced.

I know 2 people who had to put them down for out of control vicious behavior. They are also outlawed in many places. That's enough proof for me that they can't be trusted.

Even if they weren't notoriously aggressive, I wouldn't own one because they aren't trainable enough for me. I like herding dogs.
#105
Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55
You being anti-Pit Bull is rich, since you are a gun nut, aren't you?


Wrong on both counts, but thanks for playing.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#106
i hate to defend arby *shudders*, but even if he were a gun nut a gun doesn't really have any will or action of its own. animals and guns can both be dangerous, but hardly in the same way seeing as animals are typically acting independently. unless they're attack crows.
#DTWD
#107
Quote by Eastwinn
does anyone have any science on the issue?

I tried to ask this earlier, by asking for a study, but all I got was opinions...
#108
Quote by element4433
So really it's probably a combination of everything. The type of person who wants a pit bill is kind of a shitty dog owner (obviously on a case by case basis as there's probably a lot of pit bull owners that are great). When you have that type of owner combined with a dog that tends to be more aggressive an attack is more likely. And due to the strength and aggressiveness of the dogs, the attack is more grusome which attracts media coverage. That gives all pit bulls the image of being brutal killers

not to mention that theie victims often die, brutally
#109
Majority of dog attacks are the owner's fault...

Whether Pitbulls are naturally aggressive or not, owners know their dogs, and what precautions they should take to avoid causing someone harm.

That said, I do not think that pitbulls are inherently dangerous.
This ends now, eat the goddamn beans!
#110
Quote by Skynyrd890
Majority of dog attacks are the owner's fault...

Whether Pitbulls are naturally aggressive or not, owners know their dogs, and what precautions they should take to avoid causing someone harm.

That said, I do not think that pitbulls are inherently dangerous.


but if they aren't inherently dangerous, why would a good owner need to take any precautions? if they haven't abused the dog, it would just be a nice dog and not require any safety measures for mauling women and children.

that's just a question for the sake of a question btw. i'm not trying to say pit bulls are inherently dangerous. but i would lump them into a group of breeds that are generally more violent.
#DTWD
Last edited by primusfan at Jan 28, 2013,
#111
I think it's a bit of both. One of my relatives has a pit bull and it's just a big baby that likes to play. One that would probably break a couple ribs if it jumped on you, but a big baby nonetheless.

I think that risk runs with any breed of dog tbh.
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#112
Quote by primusfan
but if they aren't inherently dangerous, why would a good owner need to take any precautions? if they haven't abused the dog, it would just be a nice dog and not require any safety measures for mauling women and children.

I'm speaking in terms of all dog attacks, not just pit attacks. If owners know how their dogs behave, they'll take the necessary steps to correct it, or keep it away from people. Regardless of the dog's (any dog) breed.

But to the point of them not being inherently dangerous, I know several pits that have good owners and good homes, that are not at all aggressive. They're what lead me to think that they aren't an inherently dangerous dog. They are easily trained, and a lot of people train them poorly.

Quote by primusfan
that's just a question for the sake of a question btw. i'm not trying to say pit bulls are inherently dangerous. but i would lump them into a group of breeds that are generally more violent.


I really don't think certain breeds are inherently more violent than others. I think that a lot of people assume they are, and get them for the purpose of having a badass dog. Rotts, Pits, German Shepherds, Doberman's, they all get a somewhat negative public opinion, but they're just strong, highly trainable dogs, that are often times trained to take advantage of the fact that they're big and strong.

Maybe I'm wrong... I'm not acting like an expert or anything, but I'm just going off the dogs of these breeds and their owners that I know.
This ends now, eat the goddamn beans!
Last edited by Skynyrd890 at Jan 28, 2013,
#114
^ but he said "viscousness" which i believe is synonymous with viscosity.
#DTWD
#115
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I tried to ask this earlier, by asking for a study, but all I got was opinions...


Perhaps because you should learn to do your own research?

In any case, let me help a bit...

"Significantly more pit bull injuries (94% vs 43%, P < .001) were the consequence of unprovoked attacks and involved freely roaming animals"

Avner, Jeffrey R.; Baker, M. Douglas (1991). "Dog Bites in Urban Children". Pediatrics (American Academy of Pediatrics) 88 (1): 55–57.

Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs. Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the US mortality rates related to dog bites.

Bini, John K.; Cohn, Stephen M.; Acosta, Shirley M.; McFarland, Marilyn J.; Muir, Mark T.; Michalek, Joel E. (2011). "Mortality, Mauling, and Maiming by Vicious Dogs". Annals of Surgery (Lippincott Williams & Wilkins) 253 (4): 791–797.


Also Wikipedia data (which may be incomplete) shows 17 fatal dog attacks reported in 2011, 12 of which were Pit and 31 in 2012 with Pits accounting for 18.

There's been one this year so far, on January 8th.

Yeah, it was a Pit.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Jan 28, 2013,
#116
Quote by Skynyrd890
I'm speaking in terms of all dog attacks, not just pit attacks. If owners know how their dogs behave, they'll take the necessary steps to correct it, or keep it away from people. Regardless of the dog's (any dog) breed.

But to the point of them not being inherently dangerous, I know several pits that have good owners and good homes, that are not at all aggressive. They're what lead me to think that they aren't an inherently dangerous dog. They are easily trained, and a lot of people train them poorly.


fair enough.
#DTWD
#117
Quote by primusfan
^ but he said "viscousness" which i believe is synonymous with viscosity.


Oh, whoops. You're right.
#118
Quote by primusfan
fair enough.

Damnit, don't respond until I've had a chance to finish editing!!!
This ends now, eat the goddamn beans!
#119
Quote by Arby911
That's because many of them were, and for a very long time, and in some parts of the world (even some parts of the US) they still are.

Pretending that's not true is willful self-deception. You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Pits are responsible for well over half of the dog attack fatalities in the US and they are 'just normal dogs'?

Utter nonsense. Take off the blinders.

So why the hell blame the breed and not the owner? Do you realize that the disposition of a dog is something that can be selectively bred in or out of a dog? Pits that are put in pounds and display aggressive behavior are either rehabilitated (if lucky) and placed in a specific home that can handle a dog with issues or more commonly euthanized. And again with the stat that pits are responsible for more than half the attacks:
1. Dogs are identified by whatever they look like. If it looks like a pit, it is a pit. But the truth is that there are plenty of other breeds that look like pits and theres plenty of mutts with pit like characteristics
2. You don't have your own facts, you take something without any other context and blast it on the internet like it's something absolute. You site no other facts like how common pits are, or how many of those attacks are pits defending a home or how many were just labeled "pit like" dogs.
If you trust random stats and don't do any other background research, then maybe it's you that needs to take off the "blinders" or whatever buddy. I love it when people who have never had any interaction with the breed act like they know what they're talking about. It makes about as much sense as taking dieting tips from an obese person.
#120
Quote by LightxGrenade
So why the hell blame the breed and not the owner? Do you realize that the disposition of a dog is something that can be selectively bred in or out of a dog? Pits that are put in pounds and display aggressive behavior are either rehabilitated (if lucky) and placed in a specific home that can handle a dog with issues or more commonly euthanized. And again with the stat that pits are responsible for more than half the attacks:
1. Dogs are identified by whatever they look like. If it looks like a pit, it is a pit. But the truth is that there are plenty of other breeds that look like pits and theres plenty of mutts with pit like characteristics
2. You don't have your own facts, you take something without any other context and blast it on the internet like it's something absolute. You site no other facts like how common pits are, or how many of those attacks are pits defending a home or how many were just labeled "pit like" dogs.
If you trust random stats and don't do any other background research, then maybe it's you that needs to take off the "blinders" or whatever buddy. I love it when people who have never had any interaction with the breed act like they know what they're talking about. It makes about as much sense as taking dieting tips from an obese person.


Go read post #115, then get back to me. No need to apologize though, I'm not that sensitive.

Have a nice day.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin