Are pit bulls naturally vicious to humans or is it due to bad owners?

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#121
Quote by Arby911
Go read post #115, then get back to me. No need to apologize though, I'm not that sensitive.

Have a nice day.

Yes but I KNOW what you're saying is false because my buddy has a pit bull and I've never seen it get mad at things!
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#122
Quote by Arby911
Perhaps because you should learn to do your own research?

In any case, let me help a bit...

"Significantly more pit bull injuries (94% vs 43%, P < .001) were the consequence of unprovoked attacks and involved freely roaming animals"

Avner, Jeffrey R.; Baker, M. Douglas (1991). "Dog Bites in Urban Children". Pediatrics (American Academy of Pediatrics) 88 (1): 55–57.

Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs. Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the US mortality rates related to dog bites.

Bini, John K.; Cohn, Stephen M.; Acosta, Shirley M.; McFarland, Marilyn J.; Muir, Mark T.; Michalek, Joel E. (2011). "Mortality, Mauling, and Maiming by Vicious Dogs". Annals of Surgery (Lippincott Williams & Wilkins) 253 (4): 791–797.


Also Wikipedia data (which may be incomplete) shows 17 fatal dog attacks reported in 2011, 12 of which were Pit and 31 in 2012 with Pits accounting for 18.

There's been one this year so far, on January 8th.

Yeah, it was a Pit.
Ok great so you know how to read a report.
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf
Here's one for the center for disease control that explains how stats can be misleading especially over a lengthened timeline.
"to the extent that attacks by 1 breed are more newsworthy than those by other breeds, our methods may have resulted in differential ascertainment of fatalities by breed. Third, because identification of a dog’s breed may be subjective (even experts may disagree on the breed of a particular dog), DBRF may be differentially ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression.
Fourth, it is not clear how to count attacks by crossbred dogs. Ignoring these data underestimates breed involvement (29% of attacking dogs were crossbred dogs), whereas including them permits a single dog to be counted more than once"

"In addition to issues surrounding which breeds to regulate, breed-specific ordinances raise several practical issues. For optimal enforcement, there would need to be an objective method of determining the breed of a particular dog. Pedigree analysis (a potentially timeconsuming and complicated effort) combined with DNA testing (also time-consuming and expensive) is the closest to an objective standard for conclusively identifying a dog’s breed. Owners of mixed-breed or unregistered (ie, by a kennel club) dogs have no way of
knowing whether their dog is one of the types identified and whether they are required to comply with breed-specific ordinances. Thus, law enforcement personnel have few means for positively determining a dog’s breed and deciding whether owners are in compliance or violation of laws"

I love when even scientists and researchers are willing to admit the potential flaws of their research and yet people will act like their word is gold.

The 2 main things I want to point out is that 1, there's no way to know how many pits actually exist in the US and 2 that even the cross breed or similar looking breeds are being associated as pits. Another part of the study also shows that breeds of dogs labeled as high risk are 10x more likely to be owned by someone with a criminal record. I keep reiterating this, if we were more stringent on irresponsible dog owners, and curbed the pit population we wouldn't have this issue. But when we have ANYONE and everyone claiming they breed pits (especially since it's so simple to confuse a pit with other breeds or mixes) theres an influx of people looking to get some cash off the popularity of pits and disregard screening the dogs for behavioral problems. And quite frankly if anyone is a proud gun owner and they're reading this and disagreeing with this sentiment, now you know how we feel about you. We could argue and provide as much evidence as possible but there will always be that "yeah, but" sentiment.
Last edited by LightxGrenade at Jan 28, 2013,
#123
I agreed with LightxGrenade, nowadays anything with a head even resembling the typical boxhead gets called a Pit.


So much ignorance in this thread. No one is making you buy a pitbull. Mine hasn't ripped my face off yet in 14 years, maybe I got a dud?

EDIT: "Pitbulls were trained to kill!"
So was every hunting dog, herding dog, and gun dog. So I guess everything except a Poodle is a bred killer. We were teaching German shepherds to kill wolves centuries before we taught pitbulls to kill other pitbulls.

EDITEDIT: Poodles were originally bred to retrieve dead birds for their masters. I guess all dogs should be illegal.
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Last edited by VanTheKraut at Jan 28, 2013,
#124
Quote by VanTheKraut
No one is making you buy a pitbull. Mine hasn't ripped my face off yet in 14 years, maybe I got a dud?

This ends now, eat the goddamn beans!
#125
I have too much experience with pitbulls to fool myself into thinking they're peaceful dogs as a whole. There are 5 on my father's side of the family. I've dealt with them, lived with them, and been the victim of an attack by them. Absolutely none of the 5 abuse their dogs or encourage them to be violent.

They were bred to be angry little shits, and that's exactly what they are.
OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER
Last edited by JustRooster at Jan 29, 2013,
#127
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
Arby's a terrible human being. Pit Bulls shouldn't be any more illegal than huskies or wolves.


I love you too.

I'm wondering what I've done to upset you, since I've never once called for restriction or banning of Pit Bulls or any other breed of dog?

Are facts so upsetting that the mere recitation of them makes me a terrible human being?

If so I suppose I can live with that...

FWIW, wolves and wolf hybrids are illegal to own in many places.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#128
Quote by VanTheKraut
I agreed with LightxGrenade, nowadays anything with a head even resembling the typical boxhead gets called a Pit.


So much ignorance in this thread. No one is making you buy a pitbull. Mine hasn't ripped my face off yet in 14 years, maybe I got a dud?

EDIT: "Pitbulls were trained to kill!"
So was every hunting dog, herding dog, and gun dog. So I guess everything except a Poodle is a bred killer. We were teaching German shepherds to kill wolves centuries before we taught pitbulls to kill other pitbulls.

EDITEDIT: Poodles were originally bred to retrieve dead birds for their masters. I guess all dogs should be illegal.


there are plenty of dogs that weren't bred for killing. besides, you must be deliberately missing the point.

if you raised a bengal tiger from birth in your house to adulthood, would you expect it to attack you? of course, we know this happens. tigers are genetically predisposed to attack people. why then is it so hard to believe that a breed of dog could have a similar predisposition? it cannot possibly be all in how you raise it; a wolf raised from birth by humans is still likely to attack, if its anything like big cats.
#129
Look at this face. This is a face I love. This is the face of adorableness. It is objectively one of the best faces you will ever see.



I really like it and you are criticizing it. This is a crime comparable to those committed by African warlords and European dictators. How you can speak in a negative manner about a face as adorable and loved as that, is beyond me.


Hence, terrible human being. It's just the way of the world.
#130
Even if pitbulls aren't more aggressive we have to consider the relative danger of a pitbull attack: f a little west-highland terrier attacks you chances are an adult human can fend it off with relatively little harm a child will be able to stop it long enough to get help, though probably taking quite at a lot of damage; and a baby will probably die. All of that is because are bred to kill small things.

When it comes to pitbulls, however, the scales obviously turn. Adults are going to most likely need reconstructive surgery, children aren't likely to make it, and babies don't stand a chance. Pitbulls are powerful dogs, and really that's the reason they're illegal in certain places, or simply disliked and mistrusted in others. Obviously this fear causes problems in itself, but the fear is rather justified; if you're getting attacked by a dog then a pitbull is high on the list of 'Please don't let it be a ____'.

And the fact that they're dumb as a bag of wet mice doesn't help.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
Last edited by Todd Hart at Jan 29, 2013,
#131
Bad training? Yes. The thing is, you should look at the kind of people who own the dog than at the dog itself. Sure, pitbulls are territorial (my mom's chihuahua is that too) and strong, but the problem is their owners. They don't give them proper training, and basically go for pits because of their mean look. They buy the dog just because they want a badass dog.

So, why do labradors rarely go out on killing sprees? Owners. Labs are family dogs, they get a lot of positive attention at home by entire families and learn that humans are basically amazing beings that give them food and attention FOREVER.
#132
Quote by The_Casinator
Bad training? Yes. The thing is, you should look at the kind of people who own the dog than at the dog itself. Sure, pitbulls are territorial (my mom's chihuahua is that too) and strong, but the problem is their owners. They don't give them proper training, and basically go for pits because of their mean look. They buy the dog just because they want a badass dog.

So, why do labradors rarely go out on killing sprees? Owners. Labs are family dogs, they get a lot of positive attention at home by entire families and learn that humans are basically amazing beings that give them food and attention FOREVER.


Surely if one type of dog is more likely to kill that's clear evidence that the breed may be the issue, not the owner?
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#133
Why can't people start blaming the awful waste of flesh that train the "vicious" dogs to be like that?

Also, a facebook classic I bet everyone has seen, but meh:
clicky

Quote by Todd Hart
Surely if one type of dog is more likely to kill that's clear evidence that the breed may be the issue, not the owner?

Well, they have the potential because of how they are built. Thus, the awful kind of dog owners want them, which creates unwarranted negative attention towards the breed.

Same is said about Rottweilers, but my brother's Rottweiler is nothing but kind and playful, even though my brother isn't the best dog owner in the world...
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Last edited by sfaune92 at Jan 29, 2013,
#134
Okay, puppy hating dickbags. Here's a bit out of wiki:

According to the UKC,"This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children.[7] The APBT is a powerful and often times fearless dog with a high drive to please his master. Unfortunately, unfit owners at times have misused the APBT's trusting nature, training PitBull's for aggression and the results can be adverse.[8] The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work." [9]

Recently, American Pit Bull Terriers have been banned from several cities and counties, due to the general public's belief that Pit Bulls are naturally violent and aggressive towards people and other dogs. Contrary to popular belief, Pit Bull Terriers can be just as loving, caring, and loyal as any other dog breed. After further inspection, most deadly incidents involving Pit Bulls occur because of the manner in which the canine in question had been raised. Almost all of the fatal incidents involve Pit Bulls that had been trained for dog fighting. They are not popular in the dog fighting world because of their attitude or nature, but because they are an extremely strong breed of dog.[10]
#135
Quote by Todd Hart
Even if pitbulls aren't more aggressive we have to consider the relative danger of a pitbull attack: f a little west-highland terrier attacks you chances are an adult human can fend it off with relatively little harm a child will be able to stop it long enough to get help, though probably taking quite at a lot of damage; and a baby will probably die. All of that is because are bred to kill small things.

When it comes to pitbulls, however, the scales obviously turn. Adults are going to most likely need reconstructive surgery, children aren't likely to make it, and babies don't stand a chance. Pitbulls are powerful dogs, and really that's the reason they're illegal in certain places, or simply disliked and mistrusted in others. Obviously this fear causes problems in itself, but the fear is rather justified; if you're getting attacked by a dog then a pitbull is high on the list of 'Please don't let it be a ____'.

And the fact that they're dumb as a bag of wet mice doesn't help.

This is the point I've had in my head this entire time. I don't care how much the owner vs the dog's nature itself plays into it, you can never say with 100% certainly that your dog won't one day snap and attack someone. So why would you put people in a situation where your dog either completely ****s someone up or kills them just because you like how that breed of dog looks a little more than other breeds?

And for the record, they are def one of the more ugly dogs.
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that joke regarding your username was NOT originally posted by blake1221. That was a Gunpowder original.

I INVOKE SOPA TO SMITE YE FOR THIS FALSEHOOD.
#136
Quote by The_Casinator
Bad training? Yes. The thing is, you should look at the kind of people who own the dog than at the dog itself. Sure, pitbulls are territorial (my mom's chihuahua is that too) and strong, but the problem is their owners. They don't give them proper training, and basically go for pits because of their mean look. They buy the dog just because they want a badass dog.

So, why do labradors rarely go out on killing sprees? Owners. Labs are family dogs, they get a lot of positive attention at home by entire families and learn that humans are basically amazing beings that give them food and attention FOREVER.
But pitbulls are bred in specific manner to amplify their extremely strong body and jaws. Each one of them is a potential killing machine.
#137
DOGS ARE BASICALLY JUST RETARDED WOLVES.

inb4 the shitstorm
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#138
Quote by sfaune92
Why can't people start blaming the awful waste of flesh that train the "vicious" dogs to be like that?

Also, a facebook classic I bet everyone has seen, but meh:
clicky

Because blaming humans doesn't stop shitty dogs from killing people.
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Tweet at me bro
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Quote by blake1221
Don't be ludicrous, lushacrous.
Quote by Gunpowder
that joke regarding your username was NOT originally posted by blake1221. That was a Gunpowder original.

I INVOKE SOPA TO SMITE YE FOR THIS FALSEHOOD.
#139
Quote by lushacrous
Because blaming humans doesn't stop shitty dogs from killing people.

And they're not shitty dogs, you ignant.

They just have shitty owners.
#140
Quote by lushacrous
Because blaming humans doesn't stop shitty dogs from killing people.

Those "shitty dogs" doesn't kill people unless people train them to do so, by abusing them.
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#141
Quote by Shenlong
But pitbulls are bred in specific manner to amplify their extremely strong body and jaws. Each one of them is a potential killing machine.

So is a knife, a car, a can of deodorant coupled with a lighter, plumbing pipes, large trucks, gasoline, cork screw, ice-pick and so forth.

You can stab someone with a knife or you can use it to cut up veggies. You can train a dog to be loving or you can violate him with a ****ing ice-pick until he bites the shit out of people.

There are some places that wouldn't allow you a pit bull if you have a violent criminal record. They also have large fines for dog bites. This goes a longer way than outright banning them.
#142
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
And they're not shitty dogs, you ignant.

They just have shitty owners.

That's all well and good but the point that someone would blame the owner for a dog attack would be after the dog attack happens so we're back at square one.
Quote by sfaune92
Those "shitty dogs" doesn't kill people unless people train them to do so, by abusing them.

In an ideal world, yeah (well mostly ideal except for the fact that there are still dog attacks), but there's is absolutely positively no ****ing way to say that is the case for sure except this "owner righteousness sense" that all good dog owners seem to have I guess.
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that joke regarding your username was NOT originally posted by blake1221. That was a Gunpowder original.

I INVOKE SOPA TO SMITE YE FOR THIS FALSEHOOD.
Last edited by lushacrous at Jan 29, 2013,
#143
Anyone who denies that dogs can have a violent nature is being silly.
Anyone who denies that owners can influence their dog's behaviour is being silly.

Can we now please move on?
You who build these altars now

To sacrifice these children
You must not do it anymore
Last edited by the bartender at Jan 29, 2013,
#144
Quote by sfaune92
Well, they have the potential because of how they are built. Thus, the awful kind of dog owners want them, which creates unwarranted negative attention towards the breed.

Same is said about Rottweilers, but my brother's Rottweiler is nothing but kind and playful, even though my brother isn't the best dog owner in the world...


Temperament is as much genetic as physical ability. The point is that it's not just the owner's fault and not just the dog's fault, but bad ownership of a pitbull ends with people needing facial reconstructive surgery, whereas bad ownership of a border terrier leaves you with a couple of bits and a whimpering border terrier. It's not like pitbulls are put down for less violent attacks than other dogs are, but that other dogs are more likely to be able to commit a less violent attack anyway.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
Last edited by Todd Hart at Jan 29, 2013,
#145
Quote by the bartender
Anyone who denies that dogs can have a violent nature is being silly.
Anyone who denies that owners can influence their dogs behaviour is being silly.

Can we now please move on?
No, FUCK you man. This is a black and white issue, take your gray shit somewhere else.
#146
Quote by Weaponized
No, FUCK you man. This is a black and white issue, take your gray shit somewhere else.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
You who build these altars now

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You must not do it anymore
#147
Quote by the bartender
Anyone who denies that dogs can have a violent nature is being silly.
Anyone who denies that owners can influence their dogs behaviour is being silly.

Can we now please move on?

No, can we please go look at those two paragraphs I quoted from Wiki or at least read the article itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier


Especially the part that says that most pit bull attacks happen by pitbulls trained for dog fights and that their natural temperament is trusting, loving, enthusiastic and loyal.
#148
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
Look at this face. This is a face I love. This is the face of adorableness. It is objectively one of the best faces you will ever see.



I really like it and you are criticizing it. This is a crime comparable to those committed by African warlords and European dictators. How you can speak in a negative manner about a face as adorable and loved as that, is beyond me.


Hence, terrible human being. It's just the way of the world.


Ok, fair enough, I was just worried that there wasn't a good reason...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Jan 29, 2013,
#150
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
No, can we please go look at those two paragraphs I quoted from Wiki or at least read the article itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier


Especially the part that says that most pit bull attacks happen by pitbulls trained for dog fights and that their natural temperament is trusting, loving, enthusiastic and loyal.

I would say that all dogs have a natural temperament of being trusting, loving, enthusiastic, & loyal. It's owners who fuck that up.
#151
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I would say that all dogs have a natural temperament of being trusting, loving, enthusiastic, & loyal. It's owners who fuck that up.


Is that the case with all animals then?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#152
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
No, can we please go look at those two paragraphs I quoted from Wiki or at least read the article itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier


Especially the part that says that most pit bull attacks happen by pitbulls trained for dog fights and that their natural temperament is trusting, loving, enthusiastic and loyal.

I read it, and I deem the person who wrote that to be silly. As a biologist I cringe every time anyone calls an animal 'trusting' or 'loving', but that's a whole different discussion.

The fact that most dogs don't have a violent nature doesn't mean that none of them do. Since they've been bred from wolves, I wouldn't be surprised if most dogs would have, to some degree, a natural tendency towards violence.
You who build these altars now

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You must not do it anymore
#153
Quote by Arby911
Is that the case with all animals then?

It is with most domesticated animals. I would NOT say it is the case with many wild animals, such as lions, tigers, etc.

Quote by the bartender
Since they've been bred from wolves, I wouldn't be surprised if most dogs would have, to some degree, a natural tendency towards violence.

Do you have proof to back that up?

Because, as a biologist, you shouldn't be stating things without proof, especially things that could be considered value judgments.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 29, 2013,
#154
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I would say that all dogs have a natural temperament of being trusting, loving, enthusiastic, & loyal. It's owners who fuck that up.

Hard to say. I mean, wolf hybrids (which I guess count as dogs?) can have a natural disposition to violence. But yeah, dogs generally are loving creatures.


This thread has increased my desire to get a pitbull. I'll probably be the most emasculating pitbull owner to exist. "Aww look at his wittle muscwles! You want this wittle peanut buttew bowne?!"

Quote by Arby911
Ok, fair enough, I was just worried that there wasn't a good reason...

#155
Quote by the bartender
The fact that most dogs don't have a violent nature doesn't mean that none of them do. Since they've been bred from wolves, I wouldn't be surprised if most dogs would have, to some degree, a natural tendency towards violence.


Anyone who's ever played with a dog knows that they're naturally aggressive; all of the games they enjoy revolve around hunting/chasing/fighting.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#156
Quote by Todd Hart
Anyone who's ever played with a dog knows that they're naturally aggressive; all of the games they enjoy revolve around hunting/chasing/fighting.

Aggression implies an intent to hurt or cause pain. Most dogs are quite playful and never hurt those who don't scare them or cause them pain.
#157
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Do you have proof to back that up?

Because, as a biologist, you shouldn't be stating things without proof, especially things that could be considered value judgments.
Are you talking about the fact that dogs have been bred from wolves? Because that's the only thing I'm stating that would have to be backed up with proof, since the rest was merely an hypothesis. Which I believe I've made quite clear by my use of the phrase "I wouldn't be surprised if".
You who build these altars now

To sacrifice these children
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Last edited by the bartender at Jan 29, 2013,
#158
Quote by Todd Hart
Anyone who's ever played with a dog knows that they're naturally aggressive; all of the games they enjoy revolve around hunting/chasing/fighting.

Would you call olympic shot-putting or javelin events aggressive or malicious?
#159
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Aggression implies an intent to hurt or cause pain. Most dogs are quite playful and never hurt those who don't scare them or cause them pain.


All games are about honing skills that will help you survive. Dogs chasing cats is a purely aggressive instinctual act, as is a dog chasing a ball or play fighting with its owner. The fact that most dogs can reign in their aggression so as to not hurt their owner doesn't really matter, one would presumably say that play-fighting with your dad is aggressive to some degree?

Quote by ali.guitarkid7
Would you call olympic shot-putting or javelin events aggressive or malicious?


They derive from the desire to hone skills that are aggressive, hunting in those two cases. However, I meant games that dogs enjoy more than human games.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
Last edited by Todd Hart at Jan 29, 2013,
#160
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
Would you call olympic shot-putting or javelin events aggressive or malicious?
That's an unfair comparison, humans are cognitively far more developed than dogs.
You who build these altars now

To sacrifice these children
You must not do it anymore