Are pit bulls naturally vicious to humans or is it due to bad owners?

Page 5 of 6
#161
Quote by Todd Hart
They derive from the desire to hone skills that are aggressive, hunting in those two cases. However, I meant games that dogs enjoy more than human games.

Sure, they were fashioned out of skills used for hunting, but that doesn't make them hostile in any way. The same way that a dog can play fetch with its owner and you wouldn't see a dog carrying a dead, shot animal but a stick made of wood.

I just don't like the connotation that goes along with "aggressive". These types of games are not done out of malice, and that's what "aggressive" implies (even if it's not what you mean, nawmean?). I prefer the term "competitive", or "alpha as shit".

Quote by the bartender
That's an unfair comparison, humans are cognitively far more developed than dogs.

It doesn't make a difference. I think dogs are intelligent enough to understand the difference between "blood, dead" and "stick, no blood".
Last edited by ali.guitarkid7 at Jan 29, 2013,
#162
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
It is with most domesticated animals. I would NOT say it is the case with many wild animals, such as lions, tigers, etc.




How did dogs become domesticated?

C'mon, you're a smart guy, where am I going with this?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#163
Quote by Arby911
How did dogs become domesticated?

C'mon, you're a smart guy, where am I going with this?

I know exactly where you're going, and you're being condescending about it.

But, to answer your question, they are basically domesticated wolves. However, that doesn't mean that generations of breeding hasn't made most dogs into less aggressive creatures than their wolf forebears.
#164
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I know exactly where you're going, and you're being condescending about it.

But, to answer your question, they are basically domesticated wolves. However, that doesn't mean that generations of breeding hasn't made most dogs into less aggressive creatures than their wolf forebears.


No it doesn't, quite to opposite in fact.

But the counter is true as well, that generations of breeding FOR aggressiveness has had a predictable effect and that denial of that is foolhardy.

Which is where I was actually going.

I don't think you understand what condescension really is, but I'd be happy to teach you...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#165
Yes, I have done that, and it indeed, was incredible.

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not there...

"Pursue Happiness, With Diligence"
#168
Quote by Arby911
No it doesn't, quite to opposite in fact.

But the counter is true as well, that generations of breeding FOR aggressiveness has had a predictable effect and that denial of that is foolhardy.

Which is where I was actually going.

Most dogs were not bred solely for aggressiveness. In fact, most Pitbulls were bred to be loyal to their owners. However, bred for aggression is not the issue today, as things like dogfighting are illegal.


Fact is, people abuse their dogs, just like they abuse their kids. If you abuse an animal, what happens? It suffers psychological damage, just like a kid. I had a dog who would bark at people who wore hats. Eventually, we got it to where it wouldn't bark at me or my dad when we wore a hat. At some point, the dog was hit with hats a lot by its previous owners.

Most Pitbulls that are aggressive were taught (consciously or unconsciously) by their owners to attack. This occurred either through abuse (which can cause a dog to foster mistrust of all humans) or through actual training (which can be quite brutal in and of itself, if one is training an animal to basically become an attack dog). Dogs are just like any other creature; there are a product of their environment. If an environment includes bad owners, the dog is going to become mean. If an environment includes good owners, mean-ness is incredibly unlikely. All dogs have a certain amount of aggression, but good discipline and training teaches an animal to NOT act negatively.

I don't care how much a certain breed was bred to be aggressive. If you apply good discipline and training, then a dog of any breed will act in a mostly positive manner. The sole exception to that would be if someone hurts or scares that animal.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 29, 2013,
#169
My post on the last page went ignored. I have extensive experience with proper, family raised pitbulls. I still got attacked. I knew another one that had to be put down because it killed the neighbor's dog.

They're bred to be violent. Just look at their stature and ability. The dogs were literally bred to be fighters. Instinct runs deeper than training. Even the most adorable, peaceful, well trained pit bull was still bred to be a killer.

Pitbull attacks are not 100% because of the owners. I just want that fact to be abundantly clear. I know, I was a victim of it when I was a young teen. Just got rid of the scar from the stitches 2 years ago.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax

Most Pitbulls that are aggressive were taught


Wrong. Read my post on page 4. Most of my family are idiots from rural Alabama. They think pitbulls are cool. Now, don't read too much into it, they're all peaceful people. They take care of their dogs well. They just happened to really be pitbull people.

The dogs are naturally aggressive. Nothing my family does teaches them to be aggressive, but 3 of the 5 still are. There was a 6th, but you read what happened to it above.
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Last edited by JustRooster at Jan 29, 2013,
#170
Bad owners.

I've had them all my life and they were the friendliest dogs ever. They would even play with strangers from the family once they saw that they meant them no harm.


EDIT:

Now that I think about it, it sort of depends on how they were brought up. As they might end up biting you to display dominance over you and then end up doing the same to other people.
The content of this signature is pretty much irrelevant
Last edited by rock.freak667 at Jan 29, 2013,
#171
Quote by JustRooster
Wrong. Read my post on page 4. Most of my family are idiots from rural Alabama. They think pitbulls are cool. Now, don't read too much into it, they're all peaceful people. They take care of their dogs well. They just happened to really be pitbull people.

The dogs are naturally aggressive. Nothing my family does teaches them to be aggressive, but 3 of the 5 still are. There was a 6th, but you read what happened to it above.

Ok, let me ask you this. How much does your family train their dogs? Because most household dogs are marginally trained at best. By not training a dog well, you basically allow it to teach itself and it never really learns what is and is not good, positive behavior.
#172
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Ok, let me ask you this. How much does your family train their dogs? Because most household dogs are marginally trained at best. By not training a dog well, you basically allow it to teach itself and it never really learns what is and is not good, positive behavior.



A marginally trained Golden Retriever doesn't tend to attack people.
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#174
Quote by R8:31b

Oh man, seeing the shit we've been arguing for the entire thread with a picture of a dog making a sad face and comic sans really won me over. Good job.
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#175
People wanna ban guns. Guns don't hurt people, bad owners do.
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#176
Quote by JustRooster
A marginally trained Golden Retriever doesn't tend to attack people.

No, but it displays other negative behaviors.
#178
Quote by JustRooster
People wanna ban guns. Guns don't hurt people, bad owners do.

You're giving them too much credit in this analogy. Let's say instead this is like wanting to ban assault rifles.
R.I.P. M.C.A.
Tweet at me bro
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Quote by blake1221
Don't be ludicrous, lushacrous.
Quote by Gunpowder
that joke regarding your username was NOT originally posted by blake1221. That was a Gunpowder original.

I INVOKE SOPA TO SMITE YE FOR THIS FALSEHOOD.
#179
Quote by JustRooster
Yeah, well, the pitbull's negative behavior tends to be violence.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Dog+attack+stats+with+breed+2012.pdf


The numbers speak for themselves.

So, if you train a pitbull well, then it's less likely to act violent. That's what I'm saying.


Of course, that also assumes that you don't be a fucking moron and let little kids try to ride it like a horse, jump on it, pull its ears or tail, or do anything else that physically hurts it. But that can be said any animal.
#180
Quote by lushacrous
Oh man, seeing the shit we've been arguing for the entire thread with a picture of a dog making a sad face and comic sans really won me over. Good job.


Hey, thanks
Yes, I have done that, and it indeed, was incredible.

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not there...

"Pursue Happiness, With Diligence"
#181
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
So, if you train a pitbull well, then it's less likely to act violent. That's what I'm saying.



Ok.

Has anybody here argued against that?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#182
Quote by Arby911
Ok.

Has anybody here argued against that?

Not really, but some here have acted like it's the dog's fault. Or the breeding of the dog is the issue. I don't see it that way. Yes, it is problematic that certain breeds of dog may be more violent; however, if you decide to own one of those dogs, then it is your responsibility to train it well and discipline it. So, people can say, "Oh, well...this breed has this behavioral problem" and be right. But, by teaching the dog what is and isn't good behavior, it will learn to not do those things of, in this case, a violent nature.


It's the same as having a kid. Once you have a kid, you need to teach that child what is good behavior and what is not.

Not comparing kids and dogs, but the responsibility for both is upon the parent (in the case of a child) or the owner (in the case of a dog). It's not the kid's fault or the dog's fault, if they are not taught well.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 29, 2013,
#183
Quote by JustRooster
People wanna ban guns. Guns don't hurt people, bad owners do.

Quote by lushacrous
You're giving them too much credit in this analogy. Let's say instead this is like wanting to ban assault rifles.


Are you two even ****ing serious right now? You're comparing a metal object that was made to kill to a dog. A living, feeling being whose behavior can be adjusted depending on its environment.


Humans are pretty ****ing violent, wouldn't you say? We have an inherent violent disposition? Every year humans kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of other humans...but not every human has killed a person or will ever kill a person. Some were brought up to be better than that.
#184
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
No, but it displays other negative behaviors.

Stealing food isn't the same as attacking people :/

I think Pits can be trained well but they are naturally more violent than many other breeds. Theya re just bred that way
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Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
Last edited by WCPhils at Jan 29, 2013,
#185
No more violent than a rot, or a german shepard even.

My old rommate had a pitbull that wasent treated right, or trailer properly. and this thing was mean as hell though.. especially if you were in its bedroom.

I also know pitbulls that are incredibly sweet
Last edited by Peaceful Rocker at Jan 29, 2013,
#186
Quote by WCPhils
I think Pits can be trained well but they are naturally more violent than many other breeds. They're just bred that way

See my post #182, Phils. I covered that.

Quote by Peaceful Rocker
No more violent than a rot
Many rots were trained as guard dogs historically, same as many pitbulls. I wouldn't use that as an example.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 29, 2013,
#187
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
See my post #182, Phils. I covered that.

ok, well I think many people aren't capable of training one properly. I know people who can barely train a Labrador Retriever. You really think they are gonna be able to train a Pit? It just so happens that the consequences of not being able to train one are often much worse.

And if we go by saying that some people shouldn't be allowed to own Pits because they can't or will not train them then that is basically the same as saying they shouldn't be bred or sold since the outcome will be the same. Less Pits
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#188
Quote by WCPhils
And if we go by saying that some people shouldn't be allowed to own Pits because they can't or will not train them then that is basically the same as saying they shouldn't be bred or sold since the outcome will be the same. Less Pits

Not really. There are already laws in place that anyone with a violent criminal record etc cannot own a pitbull. Like I said, some places have extremely large fines against the owner for dog attacks. The places which implemented these laws apparently have a very low pitbull attack record.

Though I agree with what you said. Allowing dickbags who'll abuse a dog near a breed as powerful as the pitbull will have dangerous results. Allowing them near any dog is just plain immoral.
#189
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
Not really. There are already laws in place that anyone with a violent criminal record etc cannot own a pitbull. Like I said, some places have extremely large fines against the owner for dog attacks. The places which implemented these laws apparently have a very low pitbull attack record.

Though I agree with what you said. Allowing dickbags who'll abuse a dog near a breed as powerful as the pitbull will have dangerous results. Allowing them near any dog is just plain immoral.

Yea, I think most of it comes from it being that a lot of the time the kind of person who wants a Pit doesn't want or care to train it. Or actually wants it to be violent. You don't see many families with Pits. Ya know?
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#190
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
So, if you train a pitbull well, then it's less likely to act violent. That's what I'm saying.


Of course, that also assumes that you don't be a fucking moron and let little kids try to ride it like a horse, jump on it, pull its ears or tail, or do anything else that physically hurts it. But that can be said any animal.



I've owned two golden retrievers and one chesapeake bay retriever. Little kids did all that to all three of them, they thought it was fun.
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#191
Quote by WCPhils
ok, well I think many people aren't capable of training one properly. I know people who can barely train a Labrador Retriever. You really think they are gonna be able to train a Pit? It just so happens that the consequences of not being able to train one are often much worse.

And if we go by saying that some people shouldn't be allowed to own Pits because they can't or will not train them then that is basically the same as saying they shouldn't be bred or sold since the outcome will be the same. Less Pits

There's plenty of dog training schools around. If we require that owners of Pitbulls go to a school for several sessions after purchasing an untrained (read: probably puppy) Pitbulls, then people who want Pits will get them trained and learn more about taking care of their animal as well.

Quote by JustRooster
I've owned two golden retrievers and one chesapeake bay retriever. Little kids did all that to all three of them, they thought it was fun.

The fact that you let them is pretty terrible of you...
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 29, 2013,
#192
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
There's plenty of dog training schools around. If we require that owners of Pitbulls go to a school for several sessions after purchasing an untrained (read: probably puppy) Pitbulls, then people who want Pits will get them trained and learn more about taking care of their animal as well.


The fact that you let them is pretty terrible of you...



Oh wow, you're attacking my morality for letting my 2 and 3 year old nieces and nephews wrestle with my golden retrievers? Please.


Quote by ali.guitarkid7
Are you two even ****ing serious right now? You're comparing a metal object that was made to kill to a dog. A living, feeling being whose behavior can be adjusted depending on its environment.



I'm comparing something that was made to kill things to something else that was made to kill things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

Read up, they were bred to catch boars.


EDIT: I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to own Pit Bulls. My point is that there is no way anyone can say that pit bull isn't naturally more aggressive than almost any other type of dog out there. Yes, it can be curbed with training. However, and untrained pit bull is FAR more likely to be violent than an untrained Irish Terrier, or an untrained Bloodhound.

Pit bulls are generally instinctively violent.
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Last edited by JustRooster at Jan 29, 2013,
#193
Quote by crazysam23_Atax

The fact that you let them is pretty terrible of you...

My English Setter loves kids. She lets them do all of that to her.


Edit: Well yea, I meant playing and wrestling. Not being mean and stuff
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Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
Last edited by WCPhils at Jan 29, 2013,
#194
Quote by JustRooster
Oh wow, you're attacking my morality for letting my 2 and 3 year old nieces and nephews wrestle with my golden retrievers? Please.

Wrestling is a lot different than letting them pull on the poor dog's ears and pull its tail. You said you let little kids do "all of that" (meaning, everything I posted about what NOT to let little kids do, I assumed). Wrestling with a dog is a lot different than pulling its tail.

Quote by WCPhils
My English Setter loves kids. She lets them do all of that to her.

Well, that's cool. Doesn't mean you should let them.
#195
Quote by WCPhils
Yea, I think most of it comes from it being that a lot of the time the kind of person who wants a Pit doesn't want or care to train it. Or actually wants it to be violent. You don't see many families with Pits. Ya know?

Yep, it's true. And sadly that's mostly because of its reputation.

Though, I guess it's kind of like tarantulas. If you don't know how to take care of one then you're better off starting with a docile, low-maintenance species. But the rarer (sometimes better looking), stronger and more violent species are for people with experience. In the hands of an amateur (or someone abusive) the latter can be dangerous, but in the hands of an expert they are as good pets as you make them.

Shit, I'd say that for any pet that you get when its young. The more effort and care you give them, the more likely they are to turn out to be lovely. Shit, remember that video of the tiger hugging two dudes after years of not seeing them? That's a tiger. Now no matter how strong (or if you believe, violent) a pit bull is, care and effort goes a long way.

It's the difference between raising a child in warlordism and poverty, and raising him in a caring family.
#196
Quote by crazysam23_Atax


Well, that's cool. Doesn't mean you should let them.

See my edit
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Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#197
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Wrestling is a lot different than letting them pull on the poor dog's ears and pull its tail. You said you let little kids do "all of that" (meaning, everything I posted about what NOT to let little kids do, I assumed). Wrestling with a dog is a lot different than pulling its tail.


Well, that's cool. Doesn't mean you should let them.



Have you ever played with a dog? Have you ever seen kids play with a family dog? You seem way out of touch with what actually sets a dog off. All three of my retrievers have had kids pull at their tails. You know what they did? Turned around and licked them in the face.

If you have a dog that would bit you for pulling it's tail, that's probably because it's a violent dog.
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#198
Quote by WCPhils
See my edit

Ah, good, good. My faith in you is restored, Phils!

Quote by JustRooster
Have you ever played with a dog? Have you ever seen kids play with a family dog? You seem way out of touch with what actually sets a dog off. All three of my retrievers have had kids pull at their tails. You know what they did? Turned around and licked them in the face.

If you have a dog that would bit you for pulling it's tail, that's probably because it's a violent dog.

When I was young (from the time I was born until about me being 10), we owned a Welsh Corgy (sp.?) and mutt mix. This dog let us do all of those things. That doesn't mean that it's good to let little kids do that to a dog. My mom (rightly so) would always tell us not to do any of that.

Just because the dog is friendly and lets them pull its tail, that doesn't mean you should let them. Who knows? They could accidentally pull too hard and surprise the dog. Little kids may not have the strength to really hurt a dog, but they could hurt it enough that it doesn't like that. Also, letting dogs have their tails, ears, etc. pulled is just mean. Get up off your lazy ass and tell your nieces and nephews to stop doing that shit.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jan 29, 2013,
#199
Posting my earlier edit down here so it's not missed:


EDIT: I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to own Pit Bulls. My point is that there is no way anyone can say that a pit bull isn't naturally more aggressive than almost any other type of dog out there. Yes, it can be curbed with training. However, and untrained pit bull is FAR more likely to be violent than an untrained Irish Terrier, or an untrained Bloodhound.

Pit bulls are generally instinctively violent.
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#200
Also bear in mind from my earlier posts that I was raised around them. I'm very familiar with the breed. I've also been raised in a house with retrievers and owned one of my own. I'm experienced with dogs. I'm not just spewing unfounded opinions.


Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Ah, good, good. My faith in you is restored, Phils!


When I was young (from the time I was born until about me being 10), we owned a Welsh Corgy (sp.?) and mutt mix. This dog let us do all of those things. That doesn't mean that it's good to let little kids do that to a dog. My mom (rightly so) would always tell us not to do any of that. Just because the dog is friendly and lets them pull its tail, that doesn't mean you should let them. Who knows? They could accidentally pull too hard and surprise the dog. Little kids may not have the strength to really hurt a dog, but they could hurt it enough that it doesn't like that. Also, letting dogs have their tails, ears, etc. pulled is just mean. Get up off your lazy ass and tell your nieces and nephews to stop doing that.



As a lifetime dog owner, and very big lover of dogs, I'm not about to take advice from someone who hasn't really owned one, or even had one since he was 10.

The kids are grabbing his tail, letting go, and laughing. You're taking things to the extreme with your imagination. They're not yanking with all their might. Don't paint me as a villain.
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Last edited by JustRooster at Jan 29, 2013,