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kashmir0109
Registered User
Join date: May 2010
863 IQ
#1
Quick question:

I have an A Aeolian rhythm progression going. I can play D Dorian over it, and it'll sound like its still in A Aeolian given the context.

But if I play A Dorian over an A Aeolian progression, then it'll sound Dorian?
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#2
No no, if you play dorian over lydian then it'll sound mixo.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#3
you do know the term "progression" supersedes the conventions of modality, right?

a mode is incredibly primitive (or potentially non-existent) harmonically, relying on the melody to provide the foundation of the piece. a vamp would be the most sophisticated option available, lest you run the risk of providing too powerful a pull to the tonic and establishing it in the realm of western tonality (but likely very weakly executed as it seems almost an exercise in futility rather than artistry)

otherwise, you end up with something modal (and likely very weakly executed as it seems almost an exercise in futility rather than artistry)
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rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
Join date: Nov 2006
408 IQ
#4
You should completely forget that and start your theory up from scratch. You post is chock full of wrong.

I also want to know ask you a couple questions:


What notes are available to me when playing over this progression? C G Am F

If I play the following notes over that last chord progression, what key am I in? E F G A B C D E
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
Last edited by rockingamer2 at Jan 29, 2013,
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#5
Quote by kashmir0109
Quick question:

I have an A Aeolian rhythm progression going. I can play D Dorian over it, and it'll sound like its still in A Aeolian given the context.

But if I play A Dorian over an A Aeolian progression, then it'll sound Dorian?


all aboard the nope train to ****thatville

lemme break this down for you:

1) you have a progression in A minor? yeah you're not playing D anything anywhere. you're playing A minor.

2) if you play an A dorian scale, you're still playing in A minor -- you've just got an F# in there.

3) if you want a dorian sound, trash your progression and make a vamp using dorian. you could alternatively just sharpen all of the Fs in your harmony, but you run the likely risk of changing your tonal center entirely if you don't really know what you're doing.

suffice it to say that you aren't really ready for modal concepts yet, because you don't really seem to grasp the importance of a key, especially over a mode in modern musical contexts.

modes =/= progressions. they're just not in the vocabulary. the very essence by which something is permitted to "progress" is not possible using modes. the best you're going to do is a vamp before it starts to sound like it's in a key (which is most music, keep in mind).
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#6
Quote by AeolianWolf
modes =/= progressions. they're just not in the vocabulary. the very essence by which something is permitted to "progress" is not possible using modes. the best you're going to do is a vamp before it starts to sound like it's in a key (which is most music, keep in mind).


this would be the logical thing to sig

however
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D..W..
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2012
21 IQ
#7
If you're asking about how something will sound... well... Your ears can tell you that far better then we can. Just try it.

(Although you probably should pay attention to what the others have said, too, they're right.)
20Tigers
1
Join date: Jun 2008
640 IQ
#8
Quote by kashmir0109
Quick question:

I have an A Aeolian rhythm progression going. I can play D Dorian over it, and it'll sound like its still in A Aeolian given the context.

But if I play A Dorian over an A Aeolian progression, then it'll sound Dorian?

Yes
Si
Jehannum
Bant
Join date: Feb 2011
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#9
Quote by AeolianWolf
suffice it to say that you aren't really ready for modal concepts yet, because you don't really seem to grasp the importance of a key, especially over a mode in modern musical contexts.


If he learns why his current thinking is wrong - starting with studying the replies to this thread - it will reinforce his understanding. I'm beginning to think that learning wrong stuff about modes can actually be a good lesson if it's later corrected because you see the right stuff from a different perspective.
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
Join date: Aug 2008
1,703 IQ
#10
^^^ You could just learn the correct way the first time.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#11
hendrix used modes in all his music
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Akherousia
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2010
68 IQ
#12
Quote by AlanHB
^^^ You could just learn the correct way the first time.

Oh, please.
People learn best through trial and error - and to expect perfection right from the get-go is downright naive. If your mentality is seriously 'learn it right from the beginning or gtfo' then you aren't really in any position to be trying to assert your superiority over another person.

Making mistakes is natural if you wish to progress, and I find it hard to believe that you were so perfect right from the get-go either - regardless of how badly you may want to think so.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#14
Quote by Akherousia
Oh, please.
People learn best through trial and error - and to expect perfection right from the get-go is downright naive. If your mentality is seriously 'learn it right from the beginning or gtfo' then you aren't really in any position to be trying to assert your superiority over another person.

Making mistakes is natural if you wish to progress, and I find it hard to believe that you were so perfect right from the get-go either - regardless of how badly you may want to think so.


modes aren't even a mistake - they're a travesty for someone's musical education if they don't understand functional harmony and keys yet. overprioritization of scales made me completely relearn essentially everything, and many members of this forum can relate to getting fucked by smoking mirrors as budding musicians.
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Hail killed MT

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rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
Join date: Nov 2006
408 IQ
#15
Quote by Akherousia
Oh, please.
People learn best through trial and error - and to expect perfection right from the get-go is downright naive. If your mentality is seriously 'learn it right from the beginning or gtfo' then you aren't really in any position to be trying to assert your superiority over another person.

Making mistakes is natural if you wish to progress, and I find it hard to believe that you were so perfect right from the get-go either - regardless of how badly you may want to think so.

Who are you to assert that trial and error is the best way that one can learn something? He's not expecting people to get it exactly right the first time, he wants people to not go down the completely wrong path. Having a completely screwed up understanding of music theory can't be excused by "trial and error."
Trial and error can also lead to pit falls if one is self taught because there isn't someone more knowledgeable to catch the errors.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
Sloop John D
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
10 IQ
#16
Quote by kashmir0109
Quick question:

I have an A Aeolian rhythm progression going. I can play D Dorian over it, and it'll sound like its still in A Aeolian given the context.

But if I play A Dorian over an A Aeolian progression, then it'll sound Dorian?


Don't worry, you're not nearly as far behind as people here are suggesting.

The answer is that it depends on your progression. Some progressions can be ambiguous and must rely on the melody to establish the key. For example, if you have a progression that is built with Aminor, CMajor, Eminor, these chords could fit easily into either A Aeolian or A Dorian. A progression of this type would sound like A Aeolian if you play A Aeolian over it, and it will sound like A Dorian if you play A Dorian over it.

If you have a chord progression that is firmly set in A Aeolian, like Aminor, Dminor, Eminor, then playing A Dorian over the song will not make it sound like you are playing in Dorian. The F# from A Dorian will clash with the F from A Aeolian and it will sound dissonant or "wrong" to your ears.

You could potentially throw in a riff from A Dorian at points where there is no F note being played and it will probably sound pretty good, but those brief moments are not likely to cause the listener to hear a full modulation to the Dorian mode. Hendrix used to throw in a Dorian lick over an Aeolian song every so often toward his last year.
Akherousia
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2010
68 IQ
#17
RockingGamer2: I never indicated it was the right way, simply that it is common and natural. The damage is not beyond repair, and to imply otherwise is foolish and wrong - at least in this context.

Getting it right the first time is obviously the ideal situation, but we all know that wasn't the case otherwise this thread wouldn't be here in the first place - therefore a remark like 'get it right the first time' is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose other than to brag and proclaim you're better than him.

I can understand how my post gave off the wrong impression, but I was just waking up when I typed it out so I'll take responsibility for the miscommunication. My argument is merely that it's contextually inappropriate and redundant to point out, that's all.
Last edited by Akherousia at Jan 30, 2013,
steven seagull
not really a seagull
Join date: Oct 2006
1,064 IQ
#18
Learning by trial and error is the best way to learn things in the absence of any form of guidance from a person with experience or without any kind of reference material to draw from.

We now have access to hundreds of years of musical study and exploration to study at out leisure for free, we can ask a question and have people from all over the world respond to it..

To suggest trial and error is "the best", or even a good way to learn in our modern environment is ludicrous.
Actually called Mark!

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Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#19
trial and error is all well and good...when you have the foresight and intuition to understand a lack of efficiency, or in general a line of thought that deteriorates from musical topics (that, at this level, TS doesn't know in any extent)
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Akherousia
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2010
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#20
Quote by steven seagull
To suggest trial and error is "the best", or even a good way to learn in our modern environment is ludicrous.

Sounds like you've grossly misinterpreted my post and utterly ignored my most recent post clarifying the issue. I won't repeat myself beyond this point, but since people are having difficulty grasping the point I'll explain it one last time: Claiming that it's better to get it right the first time is, without a doubt, a valid argument - but completely irrelevant and useless after the fact. This thread is exactly that, after the fact. It's like treating a snakebite with 'don't get bitten'. Yes, it's valid - but it doesn't help you once you've found yourself in that position, and while it is definitely crucial to try and get things right from the very beginning to avoid having to correct yourself, the reality of life is that mistakes happen and we do learn more often from mistakes and trial & error than we do being 'perfect from the start' - regardless of guidance.

It's simply pointless to bring it up after the fact, and while I can understand how my initial post was piss-poor in terms of properly conveying that point - you have no excuse to not see the point I'm trying to make now that I have actually clarified. If you still wish to assume that my stance is that T&E is the only valid means of which one learns, then that is a fault of your own and it's not my burden to try and correct the misinterpretation anymore.

@Hail: I agree with pretty much everything you've said, but he is making an effort to learn by asking questions. It's just not necessary to respond to TS in the manner AlanHB did, which essentially was posted with the sole intention of contradicting the mentality that it's important for the TS to read through the thread and correct his misunderstanding with the alternative (albeit paraphrased) 'don't get it wrong in the first place!' which.. as I said earlier, is too little too late and thus unnecessary.

I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from, and if not then.. well, that's fine too. I don't think I have nothing more to add to this though, so I'll just leave it at that.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#21
i've drunk posted on here a million times but at least i fessed up to it later when half my posts were "i...asdf..frew...**** 20T"

speaking of stop copying him
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

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I want to be Hail when I grow up.
Morphogenesis26
UG Nerd
Join date: Apr 2011
468 IQ
#22
Quote by Akherousia
stuffs


AlanHB was replying to Jehannum, not the TS. Jehannum said how it's probably better that someone learn something incorrect and then re-learn the correct way later, so AlanHB said a better way would be to just learn it correctly first time. That doesn't mean a person should beat themselves up over not understanding something clearly when they first hear/learn it. It means that if you're learning something then don't learn about things that are completely false to begin with.
AlanHB
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#23
Quote by Morphogenesis26
AlanHB was replying to Jehannum, not the TS. Jehannum said how it's probably better that someone learn something incorrect and then re-learn the correct way later, so AlanHB said a better way would be to just learn it correctly first time. That doesn't mean a person should beat themselves up over not understanding something clearly when they first hear/learn it. It means that if you're learning something then don't learn about things that are completely false to begin with.


+1
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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Captaincranky
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2011
288 IQ
#24
Quote by Sloop John D
For example, if you have a progression that is built with Aminor, CMajor, Eminor, these chords could fit easily into either A Aeolian or A Dorian. A progression of this type would sound like A Aeolian if you play A Aeolian over it, and it will sound like A Dorian if you play A Dorian over it.
Oddly, when I hear those three chords mentioned together, (C, Em, Am), all that comes to mind is "Stairway to Heaven"..... Well that, and to a lesser extent, "A Well Respected Man", By The Kinks.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jan 30, 2013,
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#25
Quote by Sloop John D
Don't worry, you're not nearly as far behind as people here are suggesting.

The answer is that it depends on your progression. Some progressions can be ambiguous and must rely on the melody to establish the key. For example, if you have a progression that is built with Aminor, CMajor, Eminor, these chords could fit easily into either A Aeolian or A Dorian. A progression of this type would sound like A Aeolian if you play A Aeolian over it, and it will sound like A Dorian if you play A Dorian over it.

If you have a chord progression that is firmly set in A Aeolian, like Aminor, Dminor, Eminor, then playing A Dorian over the song will not make it sound like you are playing in Dorian. The F# from A Dorian will clash with the F from A Aeolian and it will sound dissonant or "wrong" to your ears.

You could potentially throw in a riff from A Dorian at points where there is no F note being played and it will probably sound pretty good, but those brief moments are not likely to cause the listener to hear a full modulation to the Dorian mode. Hendrix used to throw in a Dorian lick over an Aeolian song every so often toward his last year.


you're talking about modes as if they were keys. i don't think you're in a position to be discussing who is and who isn't "far behind". do you understand what a key is, and why it supersedes the modal system? if not, brush up on some music history.

Quote by Akherousia
Oh, please.
People learn best through trial and error - and to expect perfection right from the get-go is downright naive. If your mentality is seriously 'learn it right from the beginning or gtfo' then you aren't really in any position to be trying to assert your superiority over another person.

Making mistakes is natural if you wish to progress, and I find it hard to believe that you were so perfect right from the get-go either - regardless of how badly you may want to think so.


while it is true that perfection on first shot is not to be expected, nobody is discussing that -- you're using logic to justify going about learning something incorrectly.

making mistakes is natural, but no more natural than doing it right the first time. doing things right and doing things wrong both can come naturally.

progress doesn't always come from mistakes, either -- in fact, quite the opposite. progress comes from correcting mistakes. it is also very possible to progress without ever making a single mistake.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
food1010
Bassist
Join date: Jun 2007
1,660 IQ
#26
Learning modes wrong and then learning how useless they are doesn't really put you ahead at all. You could just not waste your time. Sure you won't have the same understanding of how useless they are, but you also would be better off in terms of tonal harmony because you would have focused that time on it rather than modes.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
cdgraves
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
43 IQ
#27
Eat your chord tones, kids. And your non-chord tones. Way better than modes.

edit: practice all your keys (and related minor variants), however, so as to play chord/passing tones in an interesting scalewise fashion over chord changes
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 31, 2013,
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#28
Quote by cdgraves
Eat your chord tones, kids. And your non-chord tones. Way better than modes.

edit: practice all your keys (and related minor variants), however, so as to play chord/passing tones in an interesting scalewise fashion over chord changes


+1
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
josephsam627
Banned
Join date: Jan 2013
10 IQ
#29
So your chord progression could be G7 Cmin6 G#maj7#11. That one breaks all kinds of rules huh? I could explain to you why it works using chord substitutions but really I just picked them almost arbitrarily.
food1010
Bassist
Join date: Jun 2007
1,660 IQ
#31
Quote by chronowarp
Ya it breaks all the rules of being a pretty vanilla minor key chord progression.

V-i-VI in Cm.

...mind is blown
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Sloop John D
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
10 IQ
#32
Quote by AeolianWolf
you're talking about modes as if they were keys.


I'm talking about modes as if they were modes. You seem to be confused about what a mode actually is. Maybe you should brush up on your theory.
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#33
Quote by josephsam627
So your chord progression could be G7 Cmin6 G#maj7#11. That one breaks all kinds of rules huh? I could explain to you why it works using chord substitutions but really I just picked them almost arbitrarily.


give us something more challenging or go back to selling cars online
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#34
Quote by Sloop John D
I'm talking about modes as if they were modes. You seem to be confused about what a mode actually is. Maybe you should brush up on your theory.

food1010
Bassist
Join date: Jun 2007
1,660 IQ
#35
Quote by Sloop John D
I'm talking about modes as if they were modes. You seem to be confused about what a mode actually is. Maybe you should brush up on your theory.


Edit: I had two posts in a row that were just smilies. I feel obligated to use words, so here goes:

It's clear that you don't know what the difference is between tonal harmony and modal harmony. In order for chords to function modally, they generally have to remain pretty static (i.e. a pedal tone/chord or vamp). Tonal harmony has more freedom to expand and progress. The idea of a chord progression is strictly a tonal concept. Tension and release is a lot more important in tonal harmony, because that's how chords progress. Obviously, there's still tension and release in modal harmony, but tension mostly is used to reinforce the literal notes of the mode, rather than the resolution to the tonic or secondary resolutions to other chords.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jan 31, 2013,
20Tigers
1
Join date: Jun 2008
640 IQ
#36
Quote by Hail
i've drunk posted on here a million times but at least i fessed up to it later when half my posts were "i...asdf..frew...**** 20T"

speaking of stop copying him

There was a thread in the Pit along the lines of "who in UG is on your shit list"

i was a little disappointed when I skimmed through and didn't see a post from you with my name in it.
Si
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
Join date: Nov 2006
408 IQ
#37
Quote by Sloop John D
I'm talking about modes as if they were modes. You seem to be confused about what a mode actually is. Maybe you should brush up on your theory.

>Talking to AeolianWolf
>Tells him to brush up on his theory

^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
Sloop John D
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
10 IQ
#38
Quote by food1010
It's clear that you don't know what the difference is between tonal harmony and modal harmony.


I would love for you to explain what gave you this impression.
food1010
Bassist
Join date: Jun 2007
1,660 IQ
#39
Quote by Sloop John D
I would love for you to explain what gave you this impression.
Here's the culprit.
Quote by Sloop John D
a chord progression that is firmly set in A Aeolian, like Aminor, Dminor, Eminor
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#40
Quote by Sloop John D
I'm talking about modes as if they were modes. You seem to be confused about what a mode actually is. Maybe you should brush up on your theory.


oh shit i didn't even see this

it's okay, he's new, and has no idea who i am, so i'll let it slide -- the previous posts dealt with the issue quite well

i was especially fond of the two gifs
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.