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frusciante.ve
newbie
Join date: Aug 2006
2,841 IQ
#1
Im not good explaining my thoughts but Ill try to make it clear: everything is ruled by randomness, every single thought you have is a direct consequence of a previous event in your life, while you think you control what you do... you actually dont, its just your brain reacting to something.

You could say "oh yeah, well Ill touch my nose while I tap my foot... I decided to do that... its not randomness", but actually its a direct response from your brain to prove myself wrong and for previous events in your life... the first thing your brain comes up with is touching your nose while taping your feet.

You dont control anything in your life... its just your brain reacting to its enviroment, you just go with the flow.

Thanks
Neo Evil11
Feminist
Join date: Feb 2006
1,498 IQ
#2
Everything may be random, but yet it does comply to specific rules and it stays within certain boundaries.
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ಠ_ಠ
Simsimius
Peace. Love. Solidarity.
Join date: Dec 2006
1,910 IQ
#4
Quote by frusciante.ve
You dont control anything in your life... its just your brain reacting to its enviroment, you just go with the flow.


Did you know, you are your brain?
Sunn O))):
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Trowzaa
TwoWorldWars&OneWorldCup
Join date: Mar 2009
731 IQ
#5
llama rainbows XDDDDD

s0 rand0m
dirtbag ballet by the bins down the alley
as i walk through the chalet of the shadow of death
everything that you've come to expect


Crofty89
I came here to rock
Join date: Jan 2010
727 IQ
#6


That is all.
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The average pitmonkey's response to my jokes.
Bob_Sacamano
UG Board King
Join date: Jan 2012
238 IQ
#8
Lol, ts. Lettin dem control yo mind, you gota fight it mang
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rak411
Registered User
Join date: Jun 2012
46 IQ
#10
knowledge, my friend...
when you gain it, your path follows with it. it is not random.
talent is not random, it passes on to the offspring, sometimes.
one's sense of right and wrong is not random.
I dunno man, pretty stoned.

good brain work out though, give you that
Trowzaa
TwoWorldWars&OneWorldCup
Join date: Mar 2009
731 IQ
#11
Quote by rak411

talent is not random, it passes on to the offspring, sometimes.


So that makes it random if it passes to the offspring only sometimes

Talent isn't random, if you practice something that makes it not random.
dirtbag ballet by the bins down the alley
as i walk through the chalet of the shadow of death
everything that you've come to expect


guitarist41
DiscoSucks****Everything
Join date: May 2006
1,812 IQ
#12
Shut up, TS.
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the chinese take-out place my family always ordered from gave you chopsticks, so as a kid it was fun to try & eat with chopsticks
now i just use a fork, 'cuz nothing is fun anymore & i just want to shovel food into my mouth to fill the void
KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
Banned
Join date: Jun 2008
664 IQ
#13
yeah man
spot on except it infers order, in fact. It's a lame term but when I'm describing this to other people I use the phrase 'Divine Fate' cos in a sense that's what it is

If we ascribe to the (incorrect) notion that we're separate from nature, the Newtonian Model shows us how the material world has to abide by strict laws of motion, this means all of the material world is predictable. If we were to know the direction and velocity of every every particle in the universe, we'd be able to punch the variables into a computer and get a model of how the universe would look x years into the future

That's a given, but then we have ourselves. I've always considered consciousness/personality as result of internal and external factors, genes and environment. This means we too are predictable, there are just a buttload more variables giving the appearance of chaos. If you think about it, 'pon de planck length , the trajectory of our thoughts follow a chain, as you said.

This throws the notion of free will out the ****ing window and proves how none of us even exist and it's cool as ****.

On a separate note, dissolution of the concept of 'meaning' gives everything profound purpose. Instead of it (whatever it may be, in this example, a particle a house a brick etc) existing for a specific need, it self-necessitates its own existence and meaning is a prerequisite and the purpose of it existing is it existing.

(:
nice thread 9/10
would be 10 if you didn't say it was random


Using your water analogy, imagine a pebble falling into a river. If we knew the speed/depth (all the variables we'd need for the calculation) of the river we could accurately measure where the stone would be (x)time into the future. We're that pebble, Maya is that river.
Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT at Feb 10, 2013,
ErikLensherr
ENDHATE
Join date: Jul 2011
1,684 IQ
#14
Quote by frusciante.ve
Im not good explaining my thoughts but Ill try to make it clear: everything is ruled by randomness, every single thought you have is a direct consequence of a previous event in your life, while you think you control what you do... you actually dont, its just your brain reacting to something.

That's not random.
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I swear this guy in particular writes for the telegraph or some shit.
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cornmancer
Thou mayest
Join date: Jun 2008
814 IQ
#15
Quote by frusciante.ve
Im not good explaining my thoughts but Ill try to make it clear: everything is ruled by randomness, every single thought you have is a direct consequence of a previous event in your life, while you think you control what you do... you actually dont, its just your brain reacting to something.

You could say "oh yeah, well Ill touch my nose while I tap my foot... I decided to do that... its not randomness", but actually its a direct response from your brain to prove myself wrong and for previous events in your life... the first thing your brain comes up with is touching your nose while taping your feet.

You dont control anything in your life... its just your brain reacting to its enviroment, you just go with the flow.

Thanks

Except the bolded bit is directly contrary to the word random, which is when something occurs without a cause. And you're saying everything is caused by something.
Also science disagrees.
daanbread
Registered User
Join date: Mar 2009
135 IQ
#18
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT

If we ascribe to the (incorrect) notion that we're separate from nature, the Newtonian Model shows us how the material world has to abide by strict laws of motion, this means all of the material world is predictable. If we were to know the direction and velocity of every every particle in the universe, we'd be able to punch the variables into a computer and get a model of how the universe would look x years into the future


I am afraid my good sir, that this isn't right. I used to think the same but after asking a physics teacher ive found out that the universe operates in a more probabilistic manner. This basically means that each event that happens, such as the movement of a gas, has a percentage change of either doing it or not doing it. These percentages can be very small but in the large scale of things it would create a very different universe. So yeah, things are quite random indeed.
frusciante.ve
newbie
Join date: Aug 2006
2,841 IQ
#19
Now that I think about it I might be wrong on the "random" part of it, like some of you pointed out. Ironically, it would be the opposite... everything follows a path. Its just that its kind of random from our perspective because we just see it happen.

The only random thing ever would be the beggining of everything. Wow.
Jiimmyyy
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2009
81 IQ
#20
This is called determinism. It's widely accepted to be true among the scientific community I believe.
Rock [James] Roll
Last edited by Jiimmyyy at Feb 10, 2013,
KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
Banned
Join date: Jun 2008
664 IQ
#21
Quote by daanbread
I am afraid my good sir, that this isn't right. I used to think the same but after asking a physics teacher ive found out that the universe operates in a more probabilistic manner. This basically means that each event that happens, such as the movement of a gas, has a percentage change of either doing it or not doing it. These percentages can be very small but in the large scale of things it would create a very different universe. So yeah, things are quite random indeed.

)': but Einstein said God dunt play dice with the Universe )':

Electrons exist as a result of the collapse of the wavefunction, which is a probability, yeah, but isn't that probability based on events preceding and during it? The act of a particle popping into existence is as a result of its environment, an environment which is as a result of its preceding environment.

And surely the movement of a gas (in space) would be down to gravity and initial velocity, if in an atmosphere, the atmosphere density/wind/temp etc etc, everything is predictable till we arrive at the quantum level. But there was a time where the paths of the planets seemed chaotic, till newton came round with his big dick and sorted that shit out. Now we're at the stage where the quantum world looks chaotic as ****, but that's what chaos theory is all about int it.


Idk think of it this way, if the concept of numbers predate our ability to perceive them (which is a given) then do they also predate matter? If so it would mean that all of matter was engraved with a 'code of conduct', as such. The world is numbers. One planck length after the big bang all of matter (although acting in a completely different way to how it does now) would have followed this code, and extrapolating this 14b years into the future we arrive in the state that we're at now.

I'm with Einstein on this although chaos theory isn't finished yet. Without it we'd never have a G.U.T though and that sucks cheeseballs.
Nameless742
UG Fanatic
Join date: May 2009
926 IQ
#22
Everything is ruled by cause and effect. The things that we consider random are the events we haven't or are unable to predict.

EG: A roll of a dice.

Some people are able to predict by decoding the systems that rule a particular pattern.

EG: Counting cards.
On playing the Paul Gilbert signature at the guitar store extensively, my missus sighed:
"Put it down now, It's like you love that guitar more than me!"
In Which I replied.
"Well it has got two F-Holes!"
Neo Evil11
Feminist
Join date: Feb 2006
1,498 IQ
#23
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
)': but Einstein said God dunt play dice with the Universe )':

Electrons exist as a result of the collapse of the wavefunction, which is a probability, yeah, but isn't that probability based on events preceding and during it? The act of a particle popping into existence is as a result of its environment, an environment which is as a result of its preceding environment.

And surely the movement of a gas (in space) would be down to gravity and initial velocity, if in an atmosphere, the atmosphere density/wind/temp etc etc, everything is predictable till we arrive at the quantum level. But there was a time where the paths of the planets seemed chaotic, till newton came round with his big dick and sorted that shit out. Now we're at the stage where the quantum world looks chaotic as ****, but that's what chaos theory is all about int it.


Idk think of it this way, if the concept of numbers predate our ability to perceive them (which is a given) then do they also predate matter? If so it would mean that all of matter was engraved with a 'code of conduct', as such. The world is numbers. One planck length after the big bang all of matter (although acting in a completely different way to how it does now) would have followed this code, and extrapolating this 14b years into the future we arrive in the state that we're at now.

I'm with Einstein on this although chaos theory isn't finished yet. Without it we'd never have a G.U.T though and that sucks cheeseballs.


Are you saying the weather is predictable?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
cornmancer
Thou mayest
Join date: Jun 2008
814 IQ
#24
@Killswitch, you said it yourself. The universe has rules. The laws of chemistry, physics, and every other branch of science hold true always forever. It would be random if I threw a rock, and then all of a sudden the universe decides, "Nope, it's actually the thing farthest away that's going to have the strongest gravitational pull on an object, of you go to the sun, rock!"
@daanbread, I don't think that by casually asking a physics teacher about quantum mechanics you truly understand the uncertainty principle.
@frusciante.ve, great you've cleared up your vocabulary, but you're still not really making arguments for why free will isn't a thing. You're just saying it and waiting for it to blow my mind.
@all of you, this thread reads like stoners thinking they understand things because weed.
Cheesepuff
i <3 you
Join date: Mar 2006
2,395 IQ
#25
Quote by frusciante.ve
Im not good explaining my thoughts but Ill try to make it clear: everything is ruled by randomness, every single thought you have is a direct consequence of a previous event in your life, while you think you control what you do... you actually dont, its just your brain reacting to something.

You could say "oh yeah, well Ill touch my nose while I tap my foot... I decided to do that... its not randomness", but actually its a direct response from your brain to prove myself wrong and for previous events in your life... the first thing your brain comes up with is touching your nose while taping your feet.

You dont control anything in your life... its just your brain reacting to its enviroment, you just go with the flow.

Thanks

Look up Behaviorism if you're wondering if people's reactions are truly only a brain's reaction to the environment.

And also check out the Butterfly effect.

Wikipedia ftw
ErikLensherr
ENDHATE
Join date: Jul 2011
1,684 IQ
#27
Quote by Cheesepuff
Look up Behaviorism if you're wondering if people's reactions are truly only a brain's reaction to the environment.

Then look up Chomsky's debunking of behaviorism. awww yeah.jpg
Quote by EpiExplorer
I swear this guy in particular writes for the telegraph or some shit.
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
That you are capable of nocturnal slumber evinces a conscientious mollifying of which you refuse to confess following Rwanda. You morality: questionable. Your candidate: crooked.
KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
Banned
Join date: Jun 2008
664 IQ
#28
Quote by Neo Evil11
Are you saying the weather is predictable?

It is predictable, there are just far too many variables for us to be able to accurately make an estimate further than like a few days

tiny variables such as fluctuations in air density/temperature/wind speed/people walking/a leaf dropping/an ant dying each play a part in affecting the weather as everything is a part of this big system. If we were to know and be able to predict each variable, we could predict the weather towards infinity. It's just our error in calculation that gives the appearance of chaos.
Neo Evil11
Feminist
Join date: Feb 2006
1,498 IQ
#29
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
It is predictable, there are just far too many variables for us to be able to accurately make an estimate further than like a few days

tiny variables such as fluctuations in air density/temperature/wind speed/people walking/a leaf dropping/an ant dying each play a part in affecting the weather as everything is a part of this big system. If we were to know and be able to predict each variable, we could predict the weather towards infinity. It's just our error in calculation that gives the appearance of chaos.

But the sun's output is a chance variable. You can't predit that... like ever. As it influences our weather, surely the system will always be chaotic and unpredictable.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
Todd Hart
Do Sadists go to Hell?
Join date: Sep 2009
153 IQ
#30
Amuses me when people try to make some distinction between them, their brain and .their body
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#31
Quote by Neo Evil11
Everything may be random, but yet it does comply to specific rules and it stays within certain boundaries.

This.
Neo Evil11
Feminist
Join date: Feb 2006
1,498 IQ
#32
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
This.

Go fly a kite. I hate you even more when you agree with me.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
guitarhero_764
UG Addict
Join date: Nov 2006
1,375 IQ
#33
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
Lol, ts. Lettin dem control yo mind, you gota fight it mang


Quote by Simsimius
Did you know, you are your brain?
Nah, you're consciousness that is aware of thoughts produced by your brain.
Last edited by guitarhero_764 at Feb 10, 2013,
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#34
Quote by Neo Evil11
Go fly a kite. I hate you even more when you agree with me.

Well, fuck you then! I'm not flying a kite on your orders!

You probably wish me to freeze to death; since it's like 0C (32F) degrees out. Asshat!
eGraham
Rattle That Lock
Join date: Oct 2008
1,567 IQ
#35
Randomness in itself is not actually real. For true random to occur, there'd have to be no defined limititation in the set. There would need to be an infinite amount of choices, which can never exist.

Everything has a percent chance of occuring, but that doesn't make it random.


edit: I looked up on it a bit more, and apparently some things in quantum mechanics are believed to be genuinely random. As well as the decay of some elements.

Even still, in day-to-day life, nothing is random.
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Last edited by eGraham at Feb 10, 2013,
Todd Hart
Do Sadists go to Hell?
Join date: Sep 2009
153 IQ
#36
Quote by guitarhero_764
Nah, you're consciousness that is aware of thoughts produced by your brain.


No. You don't have a brain, you are a brain; you don't have a body, you are a body
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
T00DEEPBLUE
Boba FRETT
Join date: Oct 2010
2,270 IQ
#37
What's with the existential and philosophical threads on UG all of a sudden?
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guitarhero_764
UG Addict
Join date: Nov 2006
1,375 IQ
#38
Quote by Todd Hart
No. You don't have a brain, you are a brain; you don't have a body, you are a body
I'm not a brain. I'm not sure what the **** I am, "conscious energy" is the best way I can describe it to myself, but I'm definitely not a brain. The brain is just an organ that does shit. Even if I wasn't here aware of what it was doing it could still do its job.
cornmancer
Thou mayest
Join date: Jun 2008
814 IQ
#39
Quote by guitarhero_764


Nah, you're consciousness that is aware of thoughts produced by your brain.

That consciousness is also a product of your brain. If you don't believe me, see where a lobotomy gets you.
Last edited by cornmancer at Feb 10, 2013,
KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
Banned
Join date: Jun 2008
664 IQ
#40
Quote by Neo Evil11
But the sun's output is a chance variable. You can't predit that... like ever. As it influences our weather, surely the system will always be chaotic and unpredictable.


The whole universe is a variable, that's what I meant by the big system, it doesn't mean everything is chaotic it means everything has the appearance of chaos, but if we were to look closer we'd see underling order

But for all intents and purposes, we'd probably never be able to predict the weather further than a few days, unless we were to make some huuuuge advances in technology


Hypothetically, if we could make a computer that sent two waves a plancktime apart that traveled all 14b lightyears of the universe and back within, idk, a second, and could tell us the positions of every particle in the universe, if we were aware of the rules governing them, we could use the lapse in distance of the particles in between the two waves to conclude velocity and direction, and from this we could calculate a prediction for what the universe will be like X into the future
Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT at Feb 10, 2013,