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#41
Quote by guitarhero_764
I'm not a brain. I'm not sure what the **** I am, "conscious energy" is the best way I can describe it to myself, but I'm definitely not a brain. The brain is just an organ that does shit. Even if I wasn't here aware of what it was doing it could still do its job.


Yeah... no.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#42
^ whatevs

Quote by cornmancer
That consciousness is also a product of your brain. If you don't believe me, see where a lobotomy gets you.
...have you had a lobotomy before? How do you know where it gets you?
#43
Quote by guitarhero_764
^ whatevs

Actually, it's not "whatevs". Todd is right.

You seem to be lacking a basic understanding of biology.
#45
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Actually, it's not "whatevs". Todd is right.

You seem to be lacking a basic understanding of biology.
I'm not sure why biology is at all relevant here.
#46
Quote by guitarhero_764
^ whatevs

...have you had a lobotomy before? How do you know where it gets you?

Okay if you're going to suggest to me that despite removing all your higher brain functioning, you would still be conscious, we have nowhere else to go with this conversation, unless you want to talk about spirituality and religion and the like.
#47
Quote by cornmancer
Okay if you're going to suggest to me that despite removing all your higher brain functioning, you would still be conscious, we have nowhere else to go with this conversation, unless you want to talk about spirituality and religion and the like.
Just don't act like you know what would happen, is all I'm saying.
#48
Quote by guitarhero_764
I'm not sure why biology is at all relevant here.

aoidnapdfakondkadnjnao
Quote by guitarhero_764
Just don't act like you know what would happen, is all I'm saying.

anidnpiandinaidnifanpdfionafidnfkaldnknfdifnlekfnmmvineiapni;ankadskn;ladkn;lsfoine;fakn;dfoain;dfeoi;nadkkknhnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
#49
Quote by guitarhero_764
I'm not sure why biology is at all relevant here.

AAGGHHH! Really? When discussing the brain, biology is irrelevant?


Get out of here, you ignant!

Quote by guitarhero_764
Just don't act like you know what would happen, is all I'm saying.

Anyone who has looked up what a lobotomy is and what it does can say what would happen, even if they lack the medical understanding to really get it.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Feb 10, 2013,
#50
Quote by Todd Hart
Yeah... no.

I think he meant that we're conscious energy that is a result of brain function. If literally everything that we will ever perceive is physically electric signals running along neurons, then aren't WE those electric signals? Which is just a type of energy really. It's 'sentient' matter interacting with 'none sentient' matter. Logic would infer that the concept of sentience doesn't exist, really. We don't exist. Not even talking in terms of personality and stuff, that's a whole 'nother thing. I mean, we perceive ourselves to exist, but that doesn't make it truth. In fact anything that we perceive will be as a prerequisite false.
Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT at Feb 10, 2013,
#51
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
AAGGHHH! Really? When discussing the brain, biology is irrelevant?


Get out of here, you ignant!
Damn dude calm down.

I'm not discussing "the brain" in terms of what it does, how it works, how it evolved, etc. I'm discussing philosophically who "you" are. Biology has nothing to do with it.
#52
Quote by guitarhero_764
Biology has nothing to do with it.

it totally does, in fact would could go as far to say that it makes of 50% of 'it'
#53
Quote by guitarhero_764
Damn dude calm down.

I'm not discussing "the brain" in terms of what it does, how it works, how it evolved, etc. I'm discussing philosophically who "you" are. Biology has nothing to do with it.

And others, including me, are saying that brain is part of your consciousness. You can't have a discussion of who "you" are without acknowledging that the brain is part of the equation. Without higher brain function, you won't be much more than a vegetable.
#54
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
And others, including me, are saying that brain is part of your consciousness. You can't have a discussion of who "you" are without acknowledging that the brain is part of the equation.
Ohhh I assure you I can. Think outside the box a little bit and consider what I'm saying. The brain affects who we are for sure, but we are not our brains. When some incurs brain damage they become different, but they don't lose part of themselves. They don't become less of a person.

Without higher brain function, you won't be much more than a vegetable.
Maybe, but that still doesn't mean that the brain is who we are.
#55
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
I think he meant that we're conscious energy that is a result of brain function. If literally everything that we will ever perceive is physically electric signals running along neurons, then aren't WE those electric signals? Which is just a type of energy really. It's 'sentient' matter interacting with 'none sentient' matter. Logic would infer that the concept of sentience doesn't exist, really. We don't exist. Not even talking in terms of personality and stuff, that's a whole 'nother thing. I mean, we perceive ourselves to exist, but that doesn't make it truth. In fact anything that we perceive will be as a prerequisite false.


Why would it? How does the fact that our consciousness is based on shifting voltage gradients at all mean that it doesn't exist?

What is it with humans and feeling that if something can be explained scientifically it's somehow less special? Which is the more incredible thought? that you are the result of a unique arrangement of neurons and their interplay, or that you are 'some cloud of consciousness'? If you think it's the latter then you're an easily-amused prole.

'It's a poor poet who must fall silent when he discovers that the sun is a 1 million kilometer wide ball of fusing hydrogen.'
- Someone I can't remember.

Quote by guitarhero_764
Ohhh I assure you I can. Think outside the box a little bit and consider what I'm saying. The brain affects who we are for sure, but we are not our brains. When some incurs brain damage they become different, but they don't lose part of themselves. They don't become less of a person.


They very much do, talk to anybody who's suffered brain damage and say that they've lost nothing of themselves when they're sat their unable to remember their son's existence.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
Last edited by Todd Hart at Feb 10, 2013,
#56
Quote by guitarhero_764
Damn dude calm down.

I'm not discussing "the brain" in terms of what it does, how it works, how it evolved, etc. I'm discussing philosophically who "you" are. Biology has nothing to do with it.

Yeah but no.
1. If you want to talk about souls and that jazz, whatevs. That's cool. But
2. At the very least your brain is how that soul perceives its surroundings, and without a brain you're unable to see your surroundings properly.
3. If you are unable to perceive your surroundings, you're 'conscious energy' isn't going to be very good at being conscious, since consciousness is being aware of your surroundings.
4. Philosophically, I agree with Vonnegut. "We are what we pretend to be." How you perceive yourself isn't very important, because ultimately the world is made up of other people, and your reactions will be with them. So how they perceive you is how you really are. And if they perceive you to be a drooling, lobotomized thing, then that's what you are.
#57
Quote by guitarhero_764
Ohhh I assure you I can. Think outside the box a little bit and consider what I'm saying. The brain affects who we are for sure, but we are not our brains. When some incurs brain damage they become different, but they don't lose part of themselves. They don't become less of a person.

Less of a person? No. Lose that part of themselves? Actually, as cases with brain injuries have shown, they truly could lose part of themselves. There's people who have huge personality changes after incurring brain damage. They literally do NOT act, think, or feel the same way.

Maybe, but that still doesn't mean that the brain is who we are.

No, but it is PART of who we are. No one is saying the brain contains the entirety of "you" as a being. However, it does contain part of your personality, influences emotions, etc. At the very least, it affects how you see the world.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Feb 10, 2013,
#58
OP that's like the opposite of random.
Good old Pete. Isn't he too old to masturbate? - Pete Townshend
Don't mind your make-up, you better make your mind up. - Frank Zappa
#59
Quote by Todd Hart
Why would it? How does the fact that our consciousness is based on shifting voltage gradients at all mean that it doesn't exist?

What is it with humans and feeling that if something can be explained scientifically it's somehow less special? Which is the more incredible thought? that you are the result of a unique arrangement of neurons and their interplay, or that you are 'some cloud of consciousness'? If you think it's the latter then you're an easily-amused prole.

It means that we're shifting voltage gradients as apposed to the constructs we imply upon ourselves e.g. being male, being white, being 50, being a janitor, liking metal, being an arsehole, liking coke, all these things all illusory and false. I didn't say it was less special, in fact I find it profoundly beautiful. I'd just say that consciousness is synonymous with neurons and their interplay.

And then look at personality. Well. You just see shit you like and you act like that, don't you. E.g. If you regard friendliness in high esteem, you'd want to employ it into your personality, you're being the concept of friendly, the concept of friendly is not you. "All the world is a stage and its people merely players" or some shit, -Will.I.Am Shakespeare
#60
Quote by Todd Hart
They very much do, talk to anybody who's suffered brain damage and say that they've lost nothing of themselves when they're sat their unable to remember their son's existence.
I'm not explaining myself very well, because it's really hard to find the proper words, but that's not what I mean. They've lost things that they had, but they're still "there" just as much as they were before, just under different circumstances.

Someone with no capacity for memory still exists just as much as someone with normal human capacity for memory, right? What we are, fundamentally, is just consciousness. And that is something that either is, or isn't. There's no "more conscious" or "less conscious". And by consciousness I don't mean intelligence or self-awareness or whatever, just the capacity to have an experience of some kind.
#61
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
It means that we're shifting voltage gradients as apposed to the constructs we imply upon ourselves e.g. being male, being white, being 50, being a janitor, liking metal, being an arsehole, liking coke, all these things all illusory and false. I didn't say it was less special, in fact I find it profoundly beautiful. I'd just say that consciousness is synonymous with neurons and their interplay.

And then look at personality. Well. You just see shit you like and you act like that, don't you. E.g. If you regard friendliness in high esteem, you'd want to employ it into your personality, you're being the concept of friendly, the concept of friendly is not you. "All the world is a stage and its people merely players" or some shit, -Will.I.Am Shakespeare


That's a complete false dichotomy, and a false conclusion. The fact that your consciousness is electrical doesn't mean you can't be a fan of Tchaikovsky, any more than the fact that you're entirely made of cells does.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#62
Quote by Simsimius
Did you know, you are your brain?


This.

Man, when you smoke weed at least have the decency to know when you're getting into Smart/Dumbshit mode without thinking you found the most profound idea in the universe.

The Brain controls every single thing you do, chemicals released by your brain create your emotions and control of your aspect and physical nature of your life. You might be thinking of a concept that dreams show you your past life through small spurts or bursts of what you may have been?

Either way, getting high was never this obvious.
Most of the important things


in the world have been accomplished


by people who have kept on


trying when there seemed to be no hope at all
#63
Quote by Todd Hart
That's a complete false dichotomy, and a false conclusion. The fact that your consciousness is electrical doesn't mean you can't be a fan of Tchaikovsky, any more than the fact that you're entirely made of cells does.

Yeah but any and all perceptions we have of irl are as a prerequisite false and not the true nature of existence. Anything that we experience is just how we perceive it, that doesn't make it truth. Therefore us liking Tchaikovsky is an entirely fallacious concept. Even the idea of preferences are subjective and don't exist in an objective world, and you can't* look at reality subjectively cos you need to look at it as a whole.

"Where we ever even alive?
hell no
is any of this even real?
hell no"- that guy from LoG

basically, ego is 'I' am, whereas we are 'I am'
if u get mi
Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT at Feb 10, 2013,
#64
TS needs to share his dealer, sounds fun man
Fender | Peavey | Epiphone | Hohner | Ernie Ball | Planet Waves | Jim Dunlop | Marshall | Lee Oskar | Traynor | Suzuki | Jackson


Compulsive gear buyer
#65
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
Yeah but any and all perceptions we have of irl are as a prerequisite false and not the true nature of existence. Anything that we experience is just how we perceive it, that doesn't make it truth. Therefore us liking Tchaikovsky is an entirely fallacious concept. Even the idea of preferences are subjective and don't exist in an objective world, and you can look at reality subjectively cos you need to look at it as a whole.

"Where we ever even alive?
hell no
is any of this even real?
hell no"- that guy from LoG


The idea that their is a difference between truth and perception of reality is just philosophical nonsense. The truth is whatever it is perceived to be by conscious agents.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#66
Well no cos that's synonymous with 'if you think something is someway then because you think it it is that way'
if I think obama is white cos I've never seen him, to me, personally, I perceive him as white. Shit example but its the same thing.

But that's like saying colours actually exist
they don't
different wavelengths of light exist, that we perceive as colour, colour doesn't really exist

same with sound taste smell and touch
density doesn't even exist for frigg sake matter is like 99% empty or some shit int it
just because we perceive shit to have density doesn't mean it actually has density
thats silly

neither does space nor time
and given that pretty much everything that we ascribe to ourselves is derived from our perception of reality, which is illusory, how can we be anything other than not real?

if you built a house out of bricks made out of poo, you have a poo house.
Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT at Feb 10, 2013,
#69
Quote by guitarhero_764
Matter is actually 100% empty, even the protons and neutrons is just quantum information or some shit.

well yeah init
how can we exist if we're and everything that defines us is matter and matter doesn't exist
?
#70
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
well yeah init
how can we exist if we're and everything that defines us is matter and matter doesn't exist
?
Fuck if I know.
#71
I don't understand how TS managed to describe determinism and then concluded everything is random.


Also on the whole mind/body thing: even if the mind is independent of the body (which I really don't think it is) if you're trying to get out of determinism that way you're really not going to get very far. In fact, even accepting indeterminacy in the universe you're not going to get any further disputing free will.
#72


^ ts
Quote by korinaflyingv
On the come up we were listening to Grateful Dead and the music started passing through my bowel and out my arsehole as this violet stream of light. I shat music. It was beautiful.
#74
Quote by cornmancer
aoidnapdfakondkadnjnao

anidnpiandinaidnifanpdfionafidnfkaldnknfdifnlekfnmmvineiapni;ankadskn;ladkn;lsfoine;fakn;dfoain;dfeoi;nadkkknhnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn




My sentiments exactly... down to the last kknhnnnnnnnnn.
Quote by guitarhero_764
Matter is actually 100% empty, even the protons and neutrons is just quantum information or some shit.

Last edited by Zaphikh at Feb 10, 2013,
#75
It's empty space in that the distance between a nucleus and an electron is really really very very far

The volume of an atom (10^-10 m in diameter) is about 15 times larger than the volume of a nucleus (roughly 1 fm, or 10^-15 m in diameter). It would be 99.9999999999999%

If you were to get gritty I guess you could split the nucleus into it's constituent parts, but there's not really any need for what I were getting at, that because of this, obviously our perception of density doesn't coincide with the true nature of reality.
Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT at Feb 10, 2013,
#76
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
It's empty space in that the distance between a neutron and an electron is really really very very far

The volume of an atom (10^-10 m in diameter) is about 15 times larger than the volume of a nucleus (roughly 1 fm, or 10^-15 m in diameter). It would be 99.9999999999999%

But the point I were trying to make was that because of this, obviously our perception of density doesn't coincide with the true nature of reality.


So are you saying that given the right conditions the Tractor Beam from Star Trek could be a reality?
#77
I'm saying something even as dense as a diamond is practically hardly anything. It means that all the matter in the entire universe could be clumped and squashed down into the size of (I think, maybe something bigger, like a tennis ball, I can't remember exactly what object it's similar to) a box of matches.

I'm just trying to talk about perception and stuff.
#78
Quote by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
I'm just trying to talk about perception and stuff.

The universe is technically 'nothing' because of how far astral bodies are from one another. Consider how pointless that statement actually is. Distance is irrelevant - what matters is... matter... and its sub-constituents.
#79
It's not thaaaat pointless, though. Quantum fluctuations infer that the energy in nothing/a void (called zero-point energy) is (depending on the version of the theory you've ascribed to) is either infinate, or incredibly huge, in that the tiniest amount of Void would contain enough energy to create a whole new universe. More energy lies in a mm of nothing than in most of the universe.

Gonna start posting links to back up what I say from now on so people stop calling me a prick. http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/features/2000-2009/2005/08/nparticle-82w-fqr-2cd


The thing is, with matter, the closer you look at it, the less and less it decides to 'exist', in that it approaches 0 which is synonymous with infinity in this sense. So it's not a very reliable apparatus of measurement
Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT at Feb 10, 2013,
#80
Quote by Jako215


CHAOS THEORY!





This guy gets it.
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LET'S GO BUCKS