abrogard
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Join date: Feb 2013
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#1
What's the 'twiddle' that so many lead guitarists start their breaks with or even lard their breaks with? Some super fast little figure I can't quite get... (I'm not an electric guitarist and not much of a musician, either).

I think it something like perhaps the note, a note a semitone higher, a note a semitone lower, then back to the note. Four notes, super quick. What classical music calls an 'ornament' or perhaps 'a figure' maybe. Something like that. I don't know.

Anyone know what I'm talking about? Can tell me what it is?
jeleopard
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#2
No idea what you're talking about. Can you provide a link to a song where this is used?
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#4
Congratulations TS, you've managed to confuse the hell out of me. Not an easy feat. As the others have said, I have no idea what you're talking about.
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OliOsbourne
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#5
Just gonna take a wild guess here, but I think it may be hammer-ons and pull-offs or just a tremolo
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abrogard
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#6
thought that might happen.... sorry.... my laziness...

I'll find an example sound or video and provide a link or something........
cdgraves
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#7
you mean a trill?

Twiddle, however, is a Vermont-based jam band whom I once saw in Boulder, CO.
jeleopard
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#8
Quote by OliOsbourne
Just gonna take a wild guess here, but I think it may be hammer-ons and pull-offs or just a tremolo



Maybe? I originally thought he ment a flutter tremolo effect but I doubt it.
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#9
Sounds like youve been chewin on the wrong kind of mushrooms. Sometimes really good pot can make you hear things like that too.
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#10
The proper musical term is twiddley, not twiddle.
abrogard
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#11
I'll be there with an example as soon as I've wrestled with the computer and got it to edit the file for me...

I mean (probably) what classical music notation refers to as 'an ornament' or perhaps ' a figure' and it's probably very close to a 'turn' which is a kinda extended trill, isn't it?

Anyway it's a tiny thing and I'm sure you guys do it all the time without thinking of it but it's too quick for me to figure out what it is - to me it sounds like 'diddly, diddly' or something like that which I think about and decide must be di-du-li - a triplet and I try making quick triplets like that on my guitar but I can't duplicate the sound..

I'll be there with an example today I think...

JKHC
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#12
Quote by abrogard
'diddly, diddly'.....di-du-li -


Very descriptive

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cdgraves
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#13
Why aren't you using your guitar to figure this out?
abrogard
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#14
What makes you think I'm not using my guitar to figure it out? And I'm talking to people... such as yourselves.... multi-tasker, that's me, advance on many fronts... all avenues...

Anyway after fighting the good fight with avidemux and magix and wmm and god knows what else I've finally got a little clip will show something.

Not exactly what I was on about but good enough to demonstrate my limitations. I can't figure what this long haired chap is playing right there at the beginning after his first note. He immediately does a sort of twiddle and for the life of me, looking at his fingers and trying to imitate I still don't know what he's doing.

And I know you're all going to say it is laughably simple.... well, that's the point... for me it's not so imagine how hard it is for me to figure other such things in the hands of really exceptional players....

You see I'm not a steel guitarist, not really a guitarist at all and I'm not really a musician at all, having to play by looking at the dots......

Sorry about that, but that's the way it is and you do what you can with what you've got....

What's he doing? What's the dots?

http://youtu.be/vbSr_8S1Chg
Last edited by abrogard at Feb 20, 2013,
steven seagull
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#15
Looking at people's fingers and dots isn't going to get you anywhere. Serious question, do you not use your ears when you play?

the bit you're talking about is nothing remotely special so it's no wonder people were mystified. It's not a "special" technique or anything like that and it doesn't have a name, he's just playing three notes. As far as technique goes the first three notes are hammer ons and pull offs so I appreciate you may not be overly familiar with those techniques but the notes themselves are easy enough to pick out by ear and they're all on the same string. The thing is there's no specific "place" to play it, it's just a slightly more interesting path to take that gets you from one note to the next, what notes they are depends on what you're playing over and what you want to hear.
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abrogard
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#16
You're talking more about you, really, and what you can do and what you think, and it's all very interesting but it doesn't get me the dots for what he's playing - and that's what I want/need

Last edited by abrogard at Feb 20, 2013,
steven seagull
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#17
The dots don't mean anything, people don't play by the dots and they don't use them to communicate things to other players either - the frets yes, but not the dots.

And I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about guitarists in general - if I thought it was something you wouldn't be able to work out for yourself or if it was a particularly tricky technique then I wouldn't have suggested it.

I'm trying to help you understand that what's going on there is nothing mysterious or out of the ordinary and it isn't smething that should be daunting you. It's not something that's only the domain of "exceptional players", it is indeed something very simple. I;m not saying it's something you should be able to do rigt now, far from it, but it is something you can work out without too much trouble.

I've given you some pointers but in all honesty without knowing what you already know and can do it's very difficult to help you. You need to forget about the dots though, the only reason they exist is to break up the fretboard a bit so it's easier to identify which fret you're on - the dots themselves mean nothing.

And again, the little bit he's playing can be played ANYWHERE, if you don't use the right notes relative to what you're playing over it's not going to sound right. Also the actual notes you'd use will be different depending on the chord you're playing over and the rest of the melody, there is no "one" thing here, it's simply a phrasing choice.

Here's where you need to start - can you listen to that bit, remember the sound, then hum or sing it back?
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cdgraves
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#18
Quote by abrogard
What makes you think I'm not using my guitar to figure it out?


Because you're asking the internet instead.

Also, it's called a trill.
Andy Pollow
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#19
You mean vibrato? When you shake the string fast? Or do you mean that cliche lick when you go like bend the g string 14th fret up to a b note and back down and pull off to the 12th fret and hammer on to the 14th fret?
abrogard
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#20
Oh... enormous error.. sorry.. what I meant by 'the dots' was the notes - as written in standard musical notation they're sometimes said by non-musicians or those being deliberately obtuse to just look like a mad scattering of dots.... there's even a tv show called 'spicks and specks' which I think is another way of referring simply to music notation.

Not tab notation. Standard 'treble and bass staff' notation.

Yes, I realise, of course, that what he's playing can be played anywhere. I also realise it all seems to be on the same string and it all, in fact, seems to me to be over only four frets - i.e. four semitones. I find it very hard to get anything at all melodious out of semitone intervals but he seems to make this little 'twiddle' out of three consecutive ones.

Best I can see. Don't see very clearly though. Finger's there doesn't mean it's fretting the string.

Best I can hear. Told you about that. My hearing isn't exactly world beating.


I'm not 'asking the internet instead' I'm asking the internet 'as well'. Would you rather I didn't?

Certainly doesn't sound like a trill to me but I'll be happy to hear what others think..

Ditto with the vibrato thing..
Last edited by abrogard at Feb 20, 2013,
steven seagull
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#21
You see, and in one swift motion you've made it difficult to help because i am terrible with standard notation - so you're a damnsight better than me there!

You're damn close, and you're right in that it's not really a trill - a trill is repeated hammer ons and pull offs whereas this is just pick, hammer on, pull off, pick
Listening to it properly i messed up before, it's on two strings not one.

I'll have to tab something i can't do standard notation at the best of times, let alone here - i'll just to the relevant strings, G and D - middle 2.

part of the reason it works sound wise is the context so it's best to hear it together with the bent note you get first, in which case you get


G|--7-b-(9)---5-h-7-p-5-----
D|------------------------7-


bend 7th fret up to the 9th for that first long bent note, then a quick hammer on and pull off between the 5th and 7th fret on the G string, then resolve to the 5th fret on the D string.

Playing it in that position will fit nicely over an Am chord.
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cdgraves
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#22
A mordent, excuse me.

Can you really not do this in a guess and check fashion with your guitar?
abrogard
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#23
Yep. And I have trouble understanding tab. Especially this hammer on and pull off stuff.

Best I can make out you're saying this:

On the G string:
Play D (7 fret)
Bend it higher to E (9fret)
Play C (5)
hammer on the D (7)
pull off on C (5) giving G (open)
On the D string
play G

That's how I understand it and I'm sure I've got it wrong. Can you put it right for me?
steven seagull
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#24
Not quite, there's no open strings involved, just the 5th and 7th fret - the pull off is just from the D back to C.

Also I messed up my tab, should have ended on an A note on the D string, not the G...i've fixed it now.

In terms of why it works over that Am chord, it's because that little figure walks you back down to the root note of your chord.
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abrogard
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#25
So maybe it finishes up a bit like this ? Just the general idea. There was no option for trills, mordents or anything much else in the software I used....
Attachments:
twiddlenotation.jpg
steven seagull
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#26
from my limited knowledge of notation yes, that's right!
Actually called Mark!

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