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#1
i am watching a video of a tour guide taking creationists on a road trip to show them the evolution of earth. i have thought about the way i want to present this thread, and i have an idea. i am going to list some questions that are related to some lists of reasons why i should believe in god, and i would like creationists' answers.

for the sake of everyone's existence, dont you dare think about flaming anyone! that doesnt lead to shit. it leads to both sides of an idea arguing out of rage, rather than actual opinions and ideas. now, dont take anything insulting, there will be some generalization, but thats where you come in, let me know these stereo types/generalizations are outdated.

mods, dont close this thread unless it becomes a flame war, i know there is a religion debate thread, iv posted in there many times, but i dont care for the way it is organized.

so, without any further waiting, here are some questions:

creationist:
god exists because the earth is the perfect place for life to grow.

me:
why do you have to think about it in reverse order? the earth was made, then life was formed. life would naturally form anywhere in the universe where the needed elements of life are abundant, earth just so happened to be 1 out of trillions of trillions of planets that just so happened to have the apparently needed materials for life. earth existed, gathered its water, atmosphere ext, then life formed.

creationist:
water's existence, being pure, and systematically functions on its own on earth is proof of god.

me:
water exists in many other places in the universe. water is made up of hydrogen and oxygen, elements that are everywhere.
systems also exists everywhere, not exclusively earth.

creationist:
the complexity of the human body/brain is proof of god.

me:
most living things have brains. the brain only needs to support the daily functions of its body. its a system. if the body needs to perform a certain task the brain does it. brains grow and evolve like everything else. baby's brains get more complex and grow and evolve into adult brains as the body grows and evolves and needs to perform more complex acts. why did a god have to create something that seems complex? the brain started out simple, and evolved with the body.

creationist:
the universe was made and follows a system of laws, how can that be if a god didnt cause it?

me:
well, science can tell us how things happened due to tangible, observable evidence, empirical evidence. we only have enough knowledge to explain so far back. with that being said, existence existed before the big bang of our universe. yes, time is wrapped with space. but space consists of 11 dimensions. our brains can only perceive 3 dimensions. time is, correct me if i am wrong, linking all 11 together. there were membranes in the 11th dimension that collided and caused our big bang. thats really as far as we know, but it is backed up with mathematical equations i couldnt even read lol. math doesnt really make things up last time i checked.

so, thats all i can say about the initial big bang creation, but as for laws, why do laws have to be written? there were multiple big bangs that all collapsed because they exploded without a lasting balance of nature. just like all the other planets that dont have enough water. our just happened to work out nicely. but thats the incorrect way of seeing it, its selfish to think the end result had anything to do with the process.

creationist:
dna is complex, made up with lots of input/output that make long chains, something that wouldnt naturally happen, so god had to create it.

me:
quantum physics is just like that. everything is a 1 or 0. thats just how things work. yes dna has 4, but that is fine. it doesnt break any fundamental laws or ideas. but, did a god have to create that? i dont know, but saying dna is complex doesnt mean a god had to create it.

creationist:
jesus existed therefor god exists

me:
jesus did exist, to the best of our knowledge. does jesus's word proof enough he was the son of god? is the only proof jesus was divine is that he was put behind a big rock and when mary, or whoever she was, found the rock moved and went in and jesus was taken but his cloth remained?

if jesus had any divine power, would he need to move the rock out of the way? and how do you know his body wasnt stolen and people werent spreading rumors that they saw him?

thats about it, im taking these from websites and this video i watched. these are ideas that i want to discuss. i know 99% of you are going to do exactly what i dont want and start fights rather than discuss like educated humans the grounding ideas behind gods existence. why do i care? who cares why i care, obviously i care.
#2
...somebody is going to hell...
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#4
Oh I like where this is going already.
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Sometimes I fuck a bamboo shoot.


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Just barreling dogs and barking trains
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#6
Quote by hriday_hazarika
Not sure I understand.

Do you want us to make you believe that god exists or something?

absolutely not, words will neither convince or deconvince someone of any belief directly, but we are allowed to discuss eachothers beliefs right? like any other subject?

i just want to hear creationists point of view on the subjects i metnioned just like every other creationist had. how can i believe in god if nobody answers my questions? how can i be sure that there is no god if a believe hasnt answered my questions? im a question sort of guy. i like asking questions
Last edited by jrcsgtpeppers at Mar 2, 2013,
#7
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
i just want to hear creationists point of view on the subjects i metnioned


then go ask some
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#8
This would be one of the worst places to look for creationists. You could probably find some nice creationist youtube videos if you'd really want to know.
Or you can continue your monologue from the OP, it seems like you were doing just fine discussing by yourself.
And what is more, there's been a bloody purple nose and some bloody purple clothes that were messing up the lobby floor. It's just apartment house rules so all you 'partment fools remember : one man's ceiling is another man's floor.
#9
Yeah, discussion is alright, I suppose.

I'm apathetic to the existence/non-existence of god, but I do like to wonder what people would do if god really showed itself to people. Can god even be called him or her? That fantastic Dishwalla song aside, god is supposed to be much, much greater than man, so perhaps assigning gender/sex to god is a bit presumptuous. Like, you mostly see people referring to god as "Him". How do they know whether "He" has a penis or not?

And if god came down to earth and demanded that we humans shut the fuck up and follow god's word blindly and without question, would we want to survive under a tyrant just because that tyrant is god?

Just some stuff that I like to think about, at times.
#11
Do you really expect me to read that shit?
It's over simplified, So what!

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#12
Quote by chookiecookie
y u chng ur avatr?

Ey mang u dnt tell me wut to do ur not my real dad.

Also because of dat tea face.
Quote by Mister.Y
Or you can continue your monologue from the OP, it seems like you were doing just fine discussing by yourself.

Heh. Hehehe.

I dunno I just found that funny.
Quote by snipelfritz
You lost me at "Lubricate."

I'm raw, like nature. Nature boy. Big jungle leaves are my cum rags.

Sometimes I fuck a bamboo shoot.


There's nothing left here to be saved
Just barreling dogs and barking trains
Another year lost to the blue line
Last edited by Joshua Garcia at Mar 2, 2013,
#13
Do we even have creationists here anymore or did those bitches get natural selected?
#15
Quote by theogonia777
then go ask some

i have have and they respond poorly with insults and they go off on tangents quoting the bible and they just say i dont have faith therefore i have no idea what im talking about.

i thought the pit had creationists in it, i dont wana go to reddit/4chan/other discussionboards really...

Quote by Mister.Y
This would be one of the worst places to look for creationists. You could probably find some nice creationist youtube videos if you'd really want to know.
Or you can continue your monologue from the OP, it seems like you were doing just fine discussing by yourself.

except that i want a response to those. i want to hear the other side now that iv said my short responses. i dont know why this is a big deal, seriously -_-'

edit:
^
that thread hasnt been bumped in months, im subbed to it.
Last edited by jrcsgtpeppers at Mar 2, 2013,
#16
Quote by hriday_hazarika
Yeah, discussion is alright, I suppose.

I'm apathetic to the existence/non-existence of god, but I do like to wonder what people would do if god really showed itself to people. Can god even be called him or her? That fantastic Dishwalla song aside, god is supposed to be much, much greater than man, so perhaps assigning gender/sex to god is a bit presumptuous. Like, you mostly see people referring to god as "Him". How do they know whether "He" has a penis or not?

And if god came down to earth and demanded that we humans shut the fuck up and follow god's word blindly and without question, would we want to survive under a tyrant just because that tyrant is god?

Just some stuff that I like to think about, at times.

well, can someone describe what god is? without using easy "indescribable" cop-outs.

if god presented itself as a 3 dimensional being, which it should already be. because god would have to be a part of this universe, either the 11th dimension itself, or another unknown time equivalent, something that keeps things connected so to say, it would be presented as a 3d form, and a 2d flat, or 1dimensional line as well. i think that because thats what we are. the 3d cut out our eyes and sensos detect of the 11th dimension. the preceding are non-pure forms of the other. maybe like we are of god? idk what do you think?
#17
You won't ever get a good response from creationists. They're wrong and refuse to admit it, so they conjure up ridiculous notions and ideas. At best they're confusing, at worst they're outright lying/in denial.

I used to want to know how creationists answered questions regarding their beliefs, but I realized that it didn't matter. Evolution is supported by mountains of evidence, as is ideas on the formation of the Universe and Earth. Creationist arguments boil down to 1) relying on faith 2) lacking an understanding of science and 3) no concept of the idea of "burden of proof."

Why waste time questioning why some people think 2+2=5 if at the end of the day, the only argument you need is that 2+2=4?

Unfortunately, we do have to waste time doing this because idiots insist we teach this crap in schools.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Mar 2, 2013,
#18
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
well, can someone describe what god is? without using easy "indescribable" cop-outs.

if god presented itself as a 3 dimensional being, which it should already be. because god would have to be a part of this universe, either the 11th dimension itself, or another unknown time equivalent, something that keeps things connected so to say, it would be presented as a 3d form, and a 2d flat, or 1dimensional line as well. i think that because thats what we are. the 3d cut out our eyes and sensos detect of the 11th dimension. the preceding are non-pure forms of the other. maybe like we are of god? idk what do you think?


What the fuck is the 11th dimension, man.

I generally feel that people assume they know too much about god. It's fine to discuss the existence or non-existence of god, but having "concrete" stances like believing in god, or being an atheist is utter bullshit no, scratch that. Thinking about it carefully, what other people believe or don't believe in is really none of my business.

I just wrote this because I didn't really understand what you wrote. Sorry, man. I really wanted to have a discussion, but you lost me at 11th dimension.
Last edited by hriday_hazarika at Mar 2, 2013,
#19
I've had a lot of interactions on youtube with creationists and I don't think you're going to get a reasonable discussion with them. I never could.

I think I can help explain the thought process though,

They believe that you have to have faith no matter what the evidence is, ir doesn't matter how strong the evidence is because they just consider it a test of faith. They are proud of ignoring the evidence because they believe to do so is displaying good faith, to them a great virtue. They have the exact same attitude to logic as well, they think that god is the ultimate logic and so they don't have to listen to human reasoning.

I hope that helps!
#20
Quote by hriday_hazarika
What the fuck is the 11th dimension, man.

I generally feel that people assume they know too much about god. It's fine to discuss the existence or non-existence of god, but having "concrete" stances like believing in god, or being an atheist is utter bullshit no, scratch that. Thinking about it carefully, what other people believe or don't believe in is really none of my business.

I just wrote this because I didn't really understand what you wrote. Sorry, man. I really wanted to have a discussion, but you lost me at 11th dimension.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory#M-theory_and_membranes

why is being an athiest bullshit? if you cant prove that my dick isnt being sucked right now you are entitled to believe that my dick isnt being sucked. if the only 2 conscious objects to see this action told you it was being sucked, you would change your belief if you didnt think i was a liar, right? is that not what athiesm is?

edit:
you cant say they are in denial unless they individually put off that vibe.
Last edited by jrcsgtpeppers at Mar 2, 2013,
#21
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory#M-theory_and_membranes

why is being an athiest bullshit? if you cant prove that my dick isnt being sucked right now you are entitled to believe that my dick isnt being sucked. if the only 2 conscious objects to see this action told you it was being sucked, you would change your belief if you didnt think i was a liar, right? is that not what athiesm is?

edit:
you cant say they are in denial unless they individually put off that vibe.


Seeing as it has no importance to my life, I just wouldn't care if your dick's being sucked or not.

Either way, I retract my earlier statement. Neither school of thought is bullshit. I was wrong.
#23
Evolution is right, why even try and fault it?.. <- That was my reaction when I was 18 years old and learned of something new to me called 'Creationism'

My religious Christian friend at the time introduced me to the idea...
That idea offended me to my core.

Ever since then, I've been a little bit cautious of new/dumb ideas... (Ideas new to me, that is).
I'm all for learning and open mindedness, which turned me off creationism and their war on evolution.
#24
Quote by treborillusion
Evolution is right, why even try and fault it?.. <- That was my reaction when I was 18 years old and learned of something new to me called 'Creationism'

My religious Christian friend at the time introduced me to the idea...
That idea offended me to my core.

Ever since then, I've been a little bit cautious of new/dumb ideas... (Ideas new to me, that is).
I'm all for learning and open mindedness, which turned me off creationism and their war on evolution.



Hate to break it to you, but not all creationists are against/ignore evolution.

There's TONS of creationists that believe life on earth was created by some deity and evolved into the state it's in now.

while I've read studies that support the idea that amino acids, specifically the ones found in DNA, could(and obviously) have formed on early-earth as well as other key components to life. there's no actual evidence that it happened, exuding that we are here now(AKA They haven't been able to recreate the results).

creationism isn't an idea to be thrown out the window just because it offends your closed mind.

as some real life example, WE are creating robots, WE are creating LIVING cells, WE are genetically modifying existing plants/animals. Maybe one day we will create something that calls us god?

who's to say in the speculatively infinite space that a super-being didn't create life as we know it?


EDIT: forgot to finish one of my sentences, fixed now
It's over simplified, So what!

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Last edited by Obsceneairwaves at Mar 2, 2013,
#25
Quote by treborillusion
Creationism is right, why even try and fault it?.. <- That was my reaction when I was 18 years old and learned of something new to me called 'Evolution'

My militant atheist friend at the time introduced me to the idea...
That idea offended me to my core.

Ever since then, I've been a little bit cautious of new/dumb ideas... (Ideas new to me, that is).
I'm all for learning and open mindedness, which turned me off atheism and their war on creationism.



ftfy if you would've been born somewhere else (or some other time), but just as 'open minded'.


And TS, do you seriously mean you understand string theory? It seems that you're just taking some ridiculously complicated concepts to use as an argument, while not really understanding the theory behind it. If you do, good on you, then you're way ahead of me.

However, I think when discussing religion it should be taken into account that is not a result of reason. There's a reason faith and doubt are such key concepts in Christianity for example.
And what is more, there's been a bloody purple nose and some bloody purple clothes that were messing up the lobby floor. It's just apartment house rules so all you 'partment fools remember : one man's ceiling is another man's floor.
#26
Quote by hriday_hazarika
Yeah, discussion is alright, I suppose.

I'm apathetic to the existence/non-existence of god, but I do like to wonder what people would do if god really showed itself to people.

The religious would worship it and the scientists would classify it as an alien species.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Mar 2, 2013,
#27
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
well, can someone describe what god is? without using easy "indescribable" cop-outs.

if god presented itself as a 3 dimensional being, which it should already be. because god would have to be a part of this universe, either the 11th dimension itself, or another unknown time equivalent, something that keeps things connected so to say, it would be presented as a 3d form, and a 2d flat, or 1dimensional line as well. i think that because thats what we are. the 3d cut out our eyes and sensos detect of the 11th dimension. the preceding are non-pure forms of the other. maybe like we are of god? idk what do you think?
I don't think that dimensions must have something to do with spacial stuff such as lenght. The other 8 that we can't percieve with eyes are just so abstract. I watched a video once, but I can't really tell anything about it. There isn't the 11th dimension either, because you can't say which is the first or the last
Not sure if a sig is a necessity.
#28
If I were to make a watch, I would be creating that simple mechanism to operate. We see it all the time in life, simple things like watches must come from complex things like human beings. Therefore, something like existence must come from something complex. That's by no means an argument against evolution. Simply put, you can't say that there is no God because the universe operates in a specific way according to its own natural laws.

Additionally, if human thoughts and consciousness came about by STRICTLY natural causes, then shouldn't our thoughts by something by which we cannot fully trust? Therefore the exact arguments that are formulated by atheists, if they were true, would be disproven by their own reasoning and be completely meaningless.

Finally, were Jesus to be the actual physical manifestation of God (which you reject), one would HAVE to assume he would have divinity and the ability to do that which defies natural laws. Now one cannot give creditability to that unless he/she first accepts the creditability of God. Ultimately, you cannot then begin to discuss whether or not Jesus was divine if your main contention is that there is no God.

Keep in mind, if one does not believe in God, and God does not exist then life has no meaning beyond what we live three score and ten. If one does believe in God, but then in the end he/she is wrong and God does not exist, then life has the same meaninglessness. If one does not believe in God, but God does exist, then he/she has made the most grave error one can make in life. And finally, if one does believe in God, and God indeed does exist, then he/she would potentially have EVERYTHING to gain.
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#29
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
Hate to break it to you, but not all creationists are against/ignore evolution.

There's TONS of creationists that believe life on earth was created by some deity and evolved into the state it's in now.


Absolutely true.

Abrahamic creationism and evolutionism are not necesarily contradictory, after all, the Book of Genesis doesn't say that God personaly created life, it actualy says that God ordered the 'earth' and the 'sea' to 'bring life forth' ([Genesis1:11] Then God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation...", [Genesis 1:20] And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures...") and that via some mysterously unmentioned mechanism, the earth and the sea brought forth life, but there's certainly nothing in the Bible to suggest that that mechanism wasn't evolution.
#30
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
Hate to break it to you, but not all creationists are against/ignore evolution.

There's TONS of creationists that believe life on earth was created by some deity and evolved into the state it's in now.

while I've read studies that support the idea that amino acids, specifically the ones found in DNA, could(and obviously) have formed on early-earth as well as other key components to life. there's no actual evidence that it happened, exuding that we are here now(AKA They haven't been able to recreate the results).

creationism isn't an idea to be thrown out the window just because it offends your closed mind.

as some real life example, WE are creating robots, WE are creating LIVING cells, WE are genetically modifying existing plants/animals. Maybe one day we will create something that calls us god?

who's to say in the speculatively infinite space that a super-being didn't create life as we know it?


EDIT: forgot to finish one of my sentences, fixed now

why was life specifically created by a god? it evolved from stardust. not from god. life grew.
#31
Quote by FRACTUREDx2
If I were to make a watch, I would be creating that simple mechanism to operate. We see it all the time in life, simple things like watches must come from complex things like human beings.


But if what you just said is true, then surely if God exists, something REALLY complex must have been responsible for God's existence, and something even more complex must have been responsible for the existence of whatever was responsible for the existence of God and something even more complex must have been... well, you get the picture, we are essentialy faced with an infinate line of more and more complex beings that eventualy results in God and ourselves.
#32
Quote by Mister.Y
ftfy if you would've been born somewhere else (or some other time), but just as 'open minded'.


And TS, do you seriously mean you understand string theory? It seems that you're just taking some ridiculously complicated concepts to use as an argument, while not really understanding the theory behind it. If you do, good on you, then you're way ahead of me.

However, I think when discussing religion it should be taken into account that is not a result of reason. There's a reason faith and doubt are such key concepts in Christianity for example.

i understand the concepts it presents, but i havent even taken calculus so i cant even read the math. but concepts are where ideas grow, and well as math equations. thats all everything is, and i believe fractals are the answer. all life grows in fractals. all life grew from one point.
#33
My theory:

I'm not a religious person at all, and I know that there are a lot of things that science can explain and prove. However, there are some things that science can't explain (at least not at this time) and no living person can prove or claim to honestly know. While we can construct evidence of past events from past discoveries we have made, but at some point we can't even begin to understand what happened because lets face it, everyone who was alive at that time is dead, and there is no concrete evidence of what actually happened.

Unless we can somehow make a time machine that goes back to the beginning (like that episode of Tripping the Rift) to see how it all happened, I don't think we will ever know.

//agnostic rant over.
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#34
Quote by Guodlca
I don't think that dimensions must have something to do with spacial stuff such as lenght. The other 8 that we can't percieve with eyes are just so abstract. I watched a video once, but I can't really tell anything about it. There isn't the 11th dimension either, because you can't say which is the first or the last


abstract? not really..

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=528befd089&view=att&th=13d2b38848e032ec&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1428401382960922624-1&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P--S6yu4xUZzzPsNyt2HT_z&sadet=1362229865283&sads=TSMrM2WqsGJFWmXuCqWJ2wc0ZZI

yeah, so you take our "3D" universe, and go from the middle and draw a fibonacci circle all the way to the out side. then do that again turning it a little, and again x1trillion times, and then you unwind that shit and weave it over a ball. now youve turned our 3D universe into the outer layer, or skin of the 4th dimension.
#35
My contempt for creationists varies. Deism I can excuse: a prime mover isn't too impossible, potential infinite regression aside. Theists can go suck a dick, though. There's literally no logical method that allows you to get from 'the universe needs a prime mover' to 'Jesus died for our sins'.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#36
Who says I'm athiest?

All because creationism seems like unicorns, pixie dust and dragons... Who says that thinking that makes someone atheist?

Cavemen aren't in Heaven because Christians refuse to believe in them.
#37
Quote by SlackerBabbath
But if what you just said is true, then surely if God exists, something REALLY complex must have been responsible for God's existence, and something even more complex must have been responsible for the existence of whatever was responsible for the existence of God and something even more complex must have been... well, you get the picture, we are essentialy faced with an infinate line of more and more complex beings that eventualy results in God and ourselves.

I get what you're saying, but that ignores the nature of God. If God created our natural laws, that means he was not subject to them in the beginning. So the simple/complex idea stops with God introducing the very idea of creation, and if this is true, then God cannot be created.
If it's creative, true to your musical goal, and it sounds good, put it in the song.

1. Guitar, delay, verb, amp, and creativity.
2. Well-tuned acoustic piano and creativity.
3. A bottle of water.
#38
Quote by FRACTUREDx2
I get what you're saying, but that ignores the nature of God. If God created our natural laws, that means he was not subject to them in the beginning. So the simple/complex idea stops with God introducing the very idea of creation, and if this is true, then God cannot be created.


If you're going to make that assumption then you can simply apply it to the universe itself. Or, you could apply it to a complete non-sentient prime mover.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#39
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
Hate to break it to you, but not all creationists are against/ignore evolution.

There's TONS of creationists that believe life on earth was created by some deity and evolved into the state it's in now.

while I've read studies that support the idea that amino acids, specifically the ones found in DNA, could(and obviously) have formed on early-earth as well as other key components to life. there's no actual evidence that it happened, exuding that we are here now(AKA They haven't been able to recreate the results).

creationism isn't an idea to be thrown out the window just because it offends your closed mind.

as some real life example, WE are creating robots, WE are creating LIVING cells, WE are genetically modifying existing plants/animals. Maybe one day we will create something that calls us god?

who's to say in the speculatively infinite space that a super-being didn't create life as we know it?


EDIT: forgot to finish one of my sentences, fixed now
That was directed @ me? Sorry, my bad. I was alerted through an attention grabbing quote from Mister Y that, I didn't see that quote there and... I saw someone else quote this and assumed this was a convo/'conversation' with out me.


In response to your statement about not all creationists being against something coming along and leaving what became us because they created it is cool. I don't know if my christian friend could fault that except for it's principal that dictates we still evolved from cavemen. If it wasn't for that logical fact, my christian friend would be on board with you; How ever, since it's clear my christian friend doesn't speak for every creationist, I'd take your idea on board and nod in agreement.

Also, have you ever seen that Futurama episode... Bought it on my Xbox 360... Should know the name of it; Clockwork Origin

?
Last edited by treborillusion at Mar 2, 2013,
#40
Quote by Todd Hart
If you're going to make that assumption then you can simply apply it to the universe itself. Or, you could apply it to a complete non-sentient prime mover.

It's an observation from the universe that simple things must come from complex things. So no that assumption could not be applied to the universe. It can however, be applied to that which is outside of the universe.
If it's creative, true to your musical goal, and it sounds good, put it in the song.

1. Guitar, delay, verb, amp, and creativity.
2. Well-tuned acoustic piano and creativity.
3. A bottle of water.
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