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deepfat
Registered User
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#1
Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
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#2
don't play patterns or scales - play sounds, movements, accents, dynamics, rhythms

play off of the harmony

hell, just play

your ear will tell you a hell of a lot better what sounds good than your eyes and hands could dream of
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#3
Quote by deepfat
Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?


I´m not sure which pattern you mean but yes you can move them around and just need to remember where the root is to determine the key.
deepfat
Registered User
Join date: Oct 2010
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#4
Quote by Hail
don't play patterns or scales - play sounds, movements, accents, dynamics, rhythms

play off of the harmony

hell, just play

your ear will tell you a hell of a lot better what sounds good than your eyes and hands could dream of


I like the way you think, friend. I read recently about how the old bluesmen would learn to play guitar. They simply slowed down records or played along with the radio and figured it out. In other words, they learned musically. My approach is slowly shifting to that.
henrihell
Tab Contributor
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#5
Yep. Any pattern in any scale can be moved up and down the neck to change the key of it.
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monkeyman3dee
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#6
Quote by Hail
don't play patterns or scales - play sounds, movements, accents, dynamics, rhythms

play off of the harmony

hell, just play

your ear will tell you a hell of a lot better what sounds good than your eyes and hands could dream of


I Believe a healthy combination of ear playing and head knowledge of what and how you are playing will enhance your overall playing experience. Nothing better than playing with all your heart and soul, and knowing exactly what key/scales/patterns work and don't work, and forging your own path.


You gotta know what the rules are in order to break 'em!
Honestly. Wtf?


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Last edited by monkeyman3dee at Mar 3, 2013,
plankboy
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#7
There's a pretty cool bit of (free) software for this, called guitar alchemist, it show's you the all the notes in the scale over 12 frets, so you can figure out how the scales run into each other
Hail
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#8
Quote by monkeyman3dee
Nothing better than playing with all your heart and soul, and knowing exactly what key/scales/patterns work and don't work, and forging your own path


it has nothing to do with heart and soul. "work" and "don't work" will come down to your ear based on the context - there's no such thing as a wrong note in the realm of tonality provided each note has its own purpose

absolutely learn chord construction and all you can about functional harmony. that doesn't mean scales and patterns, and much of what is going to be readily available with a basic musical vocabulary can very well be deduced by conventional logic and a strong ear.

within a key you can play any of the 12 given tones, and anything in between. it all goes down to playing with tension and resolution, dissonance and consonance, yin and yang to make it interesting. it's certainly a lot harder to sound "right" if you're not locked in a preset series of thoughts fermented in shapes and numbers, but it's certainly difficult for me to fathom the thought that any substance could come of the latter approach.

say what you will about modal jazz - those guys learned the rules before they broke them. the rules not being "what sounds right", but rather a foundation of functional harmony bolstered by intuition, common sense, and the ability to gut the harmony and melody of all it could offer in the realm of expression of both art and craft. that comes from your ear and your head, whether you're playing old blues licks in a garage or making some bastardization neotribal punk screaming through a didgeridoo or performing with a symphony

don't get me wrong; again, i'm not saying that you should deny yourself knowledge of conventions, and read all you possibly can, but by leaning on information found early on - particularly things that give shortcuts to beginners that jeopardize their musical development through lacked self-discipline in a field they're not yet familiar in - will inevitably deny the player knowledge that would be derived from learning self-reliance and developing the ability to be able to decide their approach in a well-informed way

no, having a good ear in and of itself will not make you a master of your instrument. but i guarantee that being a master of your instrument will be worthless without one. work on it while it's still fresh and you can kill several birds with one stone and clear out a lot of roadblocks later.

trust me, TS, from experience, i wasted years running exercises and suffered terribly in my ability to appreciate and perform music (emphasis on music, not bedroom wanking off). cut out tabs and shapes, learn by ear, and read and develop based on your natural curiosity rather than exclusively what the internet tells you. again, what's most important is that you develop the tools to help yourself

and never, ever even try to learn about modes. or i will find you. and i will kill you.
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AlanHB
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#9
TS you should learn why these pentatonic shapes are the way they are. The answer to your question is "yes", but if you knew about keys and notes you'd already know that.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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deepfat
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#10
Quote by Hail
it has nothing to do with heart and soul. "work" and "don't work" will come down to your ear based on the context - there's no such thing as a wrong note in the realm of tonality provided each note has its own purpose

absolutely learn chord construction and all you can about functional harmony. that doesn't mean scales and patterns, and much of what is going to be readily available with a basic musical vocabulary can very well be deduced by conventional logic and a strong ear.

within a key you can play any of the 12 given tones, and anything in between. it all goes down to playing with tension and resolution, dissonance and consonance, yin and yang to make it interesting. it's certainly a lot harder to sound "right" if you're not locked in a preset series of thoughts fermented in shapes and numbers, but it's certainly difficult for me to fathom the thought that any substance could come of the latter approach.

say what you will about modal jazz - those guys learned the rules before they broke them. the rules not being "what sounds right", but rather a foundation of functional harmony bolstered by intuition, common sense, and the ability to gut the harmony and melody of all it could offer in the realm of expression of both art and craft. that comes from your ear and your head, whether you're playing old blues licks in a garage or making some bastardization neotribal punk screaming through a didgeridoo or performing with a symphony

don't get me wrong; again, i'm not saying that you should deny yourself knowledge of conventions, and read all you possibly can, but by leaning on information found early on - particularly things that give shortcuts to beginners that jeopardize their musical development through lacked self-discipline in a field they're not yet familiar in - will inevitably deny the player knowledge that would be derived from learning self-reliance and developing the ability to be able to decide their approach in a well-informed way

no, having a good ear in and of itself will not make you a master of your instrument. but i guarantee that being a master of your instrument will be worthless without one. work on it while it's still fresh and you can kill several birds with one stone and clear out a lot of roadblocks later.

trust me, TS, from experience, i wasted years running exercises and suffered terribly in my ability to appreciate and perform music (emphasis on music, not bedroom wanking off). cut out tabs and shapes, learn by ear, and read and develop based on your natural curiosity rather than exclusively what the internet tells you. again, what's most important is that you develop the tools to help yourself

and never, ever even try to learn about modes. or i will find you. and i will kill you.



I understand what you're saying but with all that said, how do you approach daily practice?
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
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#11
i don't structure it or really have set goals other than whatever it is that inspires me to pick up the instrument (right now being my voice and bass)

if i want to write, i'll write; if i want to learn music, i'll learn music; if i want to make lyrics, i'll make lyrics

it's a little lackadaisical, but at this point i'm at a stage where i just try and make music because i'm very familiar with my instrument. of course there's always room to grow, and i experiment with my writing and playing as much as i can, but i'm able to make everything a rudiment in and of itself so i don't need to sit and practice my thumping then my tapping then my popping - it all comes organically as i need it, and if i need to work on it, i can slow it down and work on it properly until it's organic

as long as you go with whatever you want to do, try to do whatever you think you can't do, and patiently work on whatever it might be that's beyond your threshold of comfort, eventually you'll be in a place where it's less a masturbation sport and more a canvas for you to work off of. you're not aiming for vague goals in speed and muscle memory - you're trying to reach something that inspires you, and it's invariably going to be more meaningful

for example, i don't have a keyboard on hand (yet) but i've been making due by sightsinging the well-tempered clavier and transposing certain voicings on bass so i can get into the mindset of performing a fugue just because it's something that eludes me and intrigues me. i mean, it's not anything i'll ever perform, but it's interesting and fun and helps clear my head from whatever tunnel vision i've run into at the time

i've also been doing various types of throat singing for god knows why, that keeps me on my toes
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HotspurJr
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#12
I don't want to be dismissive of your experience, Hail, but I think for a lot of students, a little bit of structure goes a long way to facilitate learning.

Yes, that stuff can become a crutch. But I know one very successful jazz teacher, for example, who makes a point to teach his students (several have gone on to become pros, including ones you've probably heard of it if you listen to contemporary jazz) the pentatonic and get them soloing in it BEFORE they really know what it is. It's one of the first things he does.

Why? Because he wants them making music and having fun so that they fall in love with the instrument and making music. And then he starts throwing complicated stuff at people.

A lot of people, given a guitar and no instruction, will get frustrated. Whereas if you show them the pentatonic, they'll be smiling and having fun and making music. Which one of those students is going to keep at it?

I want to point out that you're actually NOT suggesting the method that you used. By your own admission, you learned a lot of the "wrong" stuff first, before you broke out of it. I would suggest that's actually one of the best ways to learn: learn some simple rules and patterns, and have fun with them.

And then move past them quickly.

Advice like "just play, you have all 12 notes" to someone who doesn't know enough to know that you can move a scale shape around is musically true, but pedagogically it's a nightmare.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
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#13
Quote by HotspurJr
I don't want to be dismissive of your experience, Hail, but I think for a lot of students, a little bit of structure goes a long way to facilitate learning.


oh yeah absolutely, especially early on. the main thing being that i worked to find what works for me and can understand how i think to a point where i play off my strengths. i was just sharing how i work usually, which is heavily off of motivation/inspiration rather than forcing everything.

highlight "a little bit of structure", though, cause i get embarrassed by those guys who talk about how they play 5 minutes of major scales then 5 minutes of minor scales then 30 minutes of "artistic writing" then 30 minutes of "learning music" like it's a workout routine or something

Advice like "just play, you have all 12 notes" to someone who doesn't know enough to know that you can move a scale shape around is musically true, but pedagogically it's a nightmare.


i'd never teach a student something boring, but that's the beauty of this medium, i think. i can speak in absolutes and people can take me as and when they want to take me (which is natural for me)

it's important to consider, though, even if you don't immediately abide by it. i've said it before: i absolutely do not expect people to follow my advice verbatim, hence why it's usually full of strong words and thoughts that might (read: do) border on dramatic for effect.

however, i didn't even consider that playing by ear, or playing outside of a scale, was possible for years. i like to think sharing my opinion in a world where 99% of people will disagree with me might plant a seed that will help people avoid some of the heartache.

i typically think and speak towards an ideal, eventual model. i'm not worried about the here and now - there's plenty of people talking about that, and none of us are getting paid for it, so i'm gonna be the guy talking about what you should be looking towards afterwards when things get serious and everything starts clicking a little bit.

that being said, if someone is motivated enough to be able to work through the hard parts of picking out songs by ear, i feel very confident that, after they've got a knack for it, they will be a lot more satisfied from the experience and derive far more than i would ever let them pay for if i were to be sucking their dick for an hour boosting their ego

P.S. if somebody starts paying me per post here, i'm very very willing to sell my soul and suck everybody's dick. and i mean everybody's. but until then i'm gonna keep doing this and posting gifs and calling people morons
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Splanker
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#14
Quote by monkeyman3dee
You gotta know what the rules are in order to break 'em!
That's resonating with me.


I'm hitting a wall because I'm SERIOUSLY loathed to study theory, and as such I really can't quite understand a lot of the jargon I need so that I can progress.

Take this thread for example.. my head just can't cope with all the terminology in it so a lot of it is lost on me. Although I know it's not that complicated I've developed a bad attitude to the theory so when my ears fail me I have nothing to fall back on to progress.


So yeah, in other simpler words.. what you said.
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
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#15
Quote by deepfat
Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?

If it was a blues, generally speaking, yeah. Lol. If it was a more sophisticated in the key of "A", then you might want to try the...


..."minor pentatonic shape 1"...


...starting on the 2nd fret.


Lol, just fucking lol.
deepfat
Registered User
Join date: Oct 2010
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#16
Quote by mdc
If it was a blues, generally speaking, yeah. Lol. If it was a more sophisticated in the key of "A", then you might want to try the...


..."minor pentatonic shape 1"...


...starting on the 2nd fret.


Lol, just fucking lol.


I was thinking of the root note on the A. No reason to be a dick about it.
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
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#17
Well, good luck with studying theory. The following should've knocked ten bells of shit out of you, hopefully.

Quote by AlanHB
The answer to your question is "yes", but if you knew about keys and notes you'd already know that.
deepfat
Registered User
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#18
I never understood why some people on this site can't just answer questions instead of throwing jabs while doing so.

Let me let you in on a little something, not everyone is as experienced as others thus why the less experienced come here with questions. You can either give constructive advice or be an immature prick. Kind of obvious the route some go.
mdc
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#19
Quote by deepfat
I never understood why some people on this site can't just answer questions instead of throwing jabs while doing so.

Let me let you in on a little something, not everyone is as experienced as others thus why the less experienced come here with questions. You can either give constructive advice or be an immature prick. Kind of obvious the route some go.

Stupid questions will receive stupid answers. Your OP, was fucking stupid.
deepfat
Registered User
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#20
Quote by mdc
Stupid questions will receive stupid answers. Your OP, was fucking stupid.


How can a question be stupid if it's from a non-experienced standpoint? I haven't been playing long and posed a question. You, knowing this, decided to take the time to be a dick. The mature thing to do is to answer to help or better yet, not reply at all.

You would probably be better off not giving advice because, obviously, you have little tolerance for beginners.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
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#21
whoa i think me and mdc just freaky fucking friday'd over here
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Hail killed MT

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GoldenGuitar
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#22
Quote by deepfat
How can a question be stupid if it's from a non-experienced standpoint? I haven't been playing long and posed a question. You, knowing this, decided to take the time to be a dick. The mature thing to do is to answer to help or better yet, not reply at all.

You would probably be better off not giving advice because, obviously, you have little tolerance for beginners.


If you think your question isn't stupid even from a beginners viewpoint, then please tell us why.
AlanHB
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#24
Calm down kids, TS has expressed a willingness to learn so it's not cool to bag him.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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Captaincranky
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#25
Quote by deepfat
Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?
You can play any open position scale up the neck, but remember you have to compensate for the now missing top nut.

So, if you move Em pentatonic up a a fret to make it Fm pentatonic you now a a straight line finger pattern running across the neck in place of the top nut.

As one poster said, you to know where the "root (or 1st) of the scale is, so you can name it.

With that said, you need to learn the chromatic scale, which will be a pathway to understanding keys.

If you want to ask "stupid questions", which is a term I'm using euphemistically for any question that the regulars in this forum feel is beneath their dignity to answer, you should visit a site such as Justin guitar: http://www.justinguitar.com/en/BC-000-BeginnersCourse.php and follow through with the beginner's course, which includes basic theory.

Most of the time, asking a basic question in this forum, will just net you a bunch of snot and derision, from people who have appointed themselves "music police". Nothing productive ever really comes of it. Go see Justin.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 4, 2013,
AlanHB
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#26
^^^ I'd generally disagree but it's true in this case.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
60 IQ
#27
Quote by Captaincranky

Most of the time, asking a basic question in this forum, will just net you a bunch of snot and derision, from people who have appointed themselves "music police". Nothing productive ever really comes of it. Go see Justin.


hey that's invalid cause i'm the only tonal beatcop on the case and i was open and nice this time ok so stop sweatin my rep mom
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Hail killed MT

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deepfat
Registered User
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#28
Quote by Captaincranky
You can play any open position scale up the neck, but remember you have to compensate for the now missing top nut.

So, if you move Em pentatonic up a a fret to make it Fm pentatonic you now a a straight line finger pattern running across the neck in place of the top nut.

As one poster said, you to know where the "root (or 1st) of the scale is, so you can name it.

With that said, you need to learn the chromatic scale, which will be a pathway to understanding keys.

If you want to ask "stupid questions", which is a term I'm using euphemistically for any question that the regulars in this forum feel is beneath their dignity to answer, you should visit a site such as Justin guitar: http://www.justinguitar.com/en/BC-000-BeginnersCourse.php and follow through with the beginner's course, which includes basic theory.

Most of the time, asking a basic question in this forum, will just net you a bunch of snot and derision, from people who have appointed themselves "music police". Nothing productive ever really comes of it. Go see Justin.


I'm starting to realize that every forum here is like that. Too bad because a more welcoming guitar community would be very helpful.

Thanks for the advice.
fanapathy
B-Tuned
Join date: Jul 2010
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#29
Quote by deepfat
I'm starting to realize that every forum here is like that. Too bad because a more welcoming guitar community would be very helpful.

Thanks for the advice.


It's not. There are friendly and helpful posters in all sections. UG is one of the more friendly internet forums I've posted in, there's some real nasty stuff out there. You have to deal with a lot of crap posting in discussions online... some find it hard to relate to a screen name as a real person or otherwise aren't very good at dealing with people in general so this stuff happens. Just brush off negative responses, it's better to expect them in advance. The guy who insulted you earlier is from what I've someone who contributes a lot and usually wants to help. Everyone can be an asshole once in a while. Cheers and keep on learning
MaggaraMarine
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#30
TS, you just need to visit MT forums more often and you'll learn how different people here write about things and you just get used to it. They might say things a bit harshly but just ignore the harshness. Most of the time they are right about things.
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#31
Pentatonic major: Do Re Mi Sol (So) La Do (up an octave).
Pentatonic minor: Do Me Fa So Te Do (up an octave).
Learn how these sound ma homi.
bondmorkret
Registered User
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#32
Chipping in a bit late here, but yes of course you can. Also, try starting on different strings too - say the 12th fret of the A string. Just change the shape when you hit the B string to compensate for the tuning
Adam808
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#33
Quote by Hail
don't play patterns or scales - play sounds, movements, accents, dynamics, rhythms

play off of the harmony

hell, just play

your ear will tell you a hell of a lot better what sounds good than your eyes and hands could dream of


Thats deep man, I like it!
Play Loud! Play Fast! Play Raw!
Sean0913
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#34
Quote by deepfat
Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?



The key of A? Not necessarily...depends on what the underlying chords are.

What I hear you saying, and its a commin beginner question. Start the pattern on any note of the 6th string and have it take on the minor pent properties of that minor tonal center (assuming the progression is in the same Key as that starting pattern).

I'd say, Yes. If you get a Jam track in Gm and play a G Pent which means you'd start at the 3rd fret (in E standard tuning) and widdle widdle, you're playing within the scope of a G minor melody.

Best,

Sean
Splanker
Registered User
Join date: Mar 2013
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#35
Aaaaaaaaaaaaanyway.. Deepfat, all the other politics aside, did you learn what you needed to know? (I can't work it out).

Over the last week I've been TRYING to go back to core principals to see what effect it has. Overall it's been good.. though a bit tedious. I've managed to find a few new riffs but mostly it's been a case of re-discovering the basics.

How's about you?
GuitarMunky
I play guitar n stuff
Join date: May 2007
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#36
Quote by deepfat
Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?


Yes, you can.
Mister A.J.
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#37
I've no idea why you would want to, but yes you can.
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Captaincranky
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#39
Quote by ouchies
Why wouldn't you want to?
FWIW, I was watching, "Elementary", (The new Sherlock Holmes thing) tonight. Sherlock said,"opinions and ani, everyone has one.

It's true, you do learn something new everyday! For example, "ani" can be used in the place of "anuses", as a plural.

So, I suppose by inference, you could deduce that, "why would you want to", was an opinion.
GuitarMunky
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#40
Quote by Mister A.J.
I've no idea why you would want to, but yes you can.


it's convenient, that's why.
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