#1
So I saw that BOSS has new pedals, some of them have decent effects, but nothing really impressive.

I've noticed they came up with yet another term, like their COSM term. MDP - Multi Dimensional Processing.

Do these terms honestly mean anything or are they just pulling them out of their ass to use as hook terms to make people think it's groundbreaking and innovative?
I never really get why they just don't flat out call their modeling, well, modeling. Do we really need to be that pretentious now, or is there honestly something behind it?
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#2
Guess what?

That's called advertising.

Roland's a company. They make teh money. Does this really happen when you eat 5 Gum? No.

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#3
It basically means in cuts it all up into frequency bands and processes them individually and then puts them back together.

It sounds highly digital and probably produces more noise than it provides benefit in a circuit of that size with a signal as "grubby" as a guitar signal. The tech was originally designed by roland which means it's designed for vocals and keyboards, which are generally less noisy (especially vocals using balanced signals).

But then again, I think COSM is bloody noisy too (which is basically just their name for digital modelling, also originally roland tech)
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#4
Quote by GABarrie
It basically means in cuts it all up into frequency bands and processes them individually and then puts them back together.

It sounds highly digital and probably produces more noise than it provides benefit in a circuit of that size with a signal as "grubby" as a guitar signal. The tech was originally designed by roland which means it's designed for vocals and keyboards, which are generally less noisy (especially vocals using balanced signals).

But then again, I think COSM is bloody noisy too (which is basically just their name for digital modelling, also originally roland tech)


Does COSM automatically mean it's digital? I know most modeling is digital, I haven't really seen any analog modeling before.

I got an AC-3 pedal I never use anymore (real acoustic now, and piezo guitar), and it was noisy as hell, though it probably could be because it's trying to make an electric sound like an acoustic so it must be boosting the hell out of the treble frequencies.
#5
Got flu-type bug at the moment so hopefully this makes sense.

Modelling is digital, it's basically about taking any signal and making it sound like something specific, analog is about doing the same thing every time to a specific signal, but would behave differently under a different signal, for example rolling your volume control up or down affects how an analog circuit performs, digital not so much (except output volume).

COSM is the roland/boss modelling technology, so yes, automatically digital.

Digital can be noisy, especially in 9V pedals, most digital rack systems use a rail system, all the electronics run on say +15V and -15V and only the signal path uses the ground.

I don't deal with digital so don't quote me on the voltages, I know microcontrollers require a specific regulated 5V supply, but that's normally an entirely different ground circuit, not connected to the rails or signal ground at all.

In a 9V pedal a lot of digital circuits need all that voltage to run properly, so the signal gets grounded at a 4.5v reference voltage (creating a +/-4.5v rail supply) but the noise from the digital stuff gets linked with any pedals on a daisy chain. which is ok if you have an isolated supply but causes noise in the circuit because it's not a full proof system
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Last edited by GABarrie at Mar 7, 2013,
#6
Quote by GABarrie

Modelling is digital, it's basically about taking any signal and making it sound like something specific, analog is about doing the same thing every time to a specific signal, but would behave differently under a different signal, for example rolling your volume control up or down affects how an analog circuit performs, digital not so much (except output volume).

COSM is the roland/boss modelling technology, so yes, automatically digital.

Digital is noisy, especially in 9V pedals, most digital rack systems use a rail system, all the electronics run on say +15V and -15V and only the signal path uses the ground.


- Not all modeling is digital. Modeling can do what you say, but not all of the modelers react that way. Lots of great modelers, both hardware and software are available today, and clean up and react like an amp. There are also those Egnater/Randall amps with modular preamps. Lots of analog pedals like the AC-Tone, Plexitone, Tech 21 Character series that model specific amps, but are not digital.

-COSM does not automatically mean digital. Remember the Fender preamp/drive pedals? The original run of Cubes, and some of the current ones are analog as well.

-Digital does NOT mean it is automatically noisy. That's one of the advantages of DAW's and digital mixers is the fact that the noise floor is very low. Saying digital anything is noisy, is like saying the tube amps don't have a lot of gain because the Hot Rod Deluxe doesn't have a lot of gain. The design is important.


In short, you point out real facts and experiences, but you're missing a few parts of the picture. :cheers
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Last edited by Reincaster at Mar 7, 2013,
#7
Quote by Reincaster
- Not all modeling is digital. Modeling can do what you say, but not all of the modelers react that way. Lots of great modelers, both hardware and software are available today, and clean up and react like an amp. There are also those Egnater/Randall amps with modular preamps. Lots of analog pedals like the AC-Tone, Plexitone, Tech 21 Character series that model specific amps, but are not digital.
I agree about the modelling that tries to work like analog circuits, I was attempting to keep it simple, plus he was talking about pedals so was kinda focusing there... I also would describe pedals like the AC Tone, Plexitone, etc. as emulators rather than modellers, maybe it's a distinction without a different, but that's how it is in my head.
Quote by Reincaster
-COSM does not automatically mean digital. Remember the Fender preamp/drive pedals? The original run of Cubes, and some of the current ones are analog as well.
Roland describe COSM as DSP... Digital signal processor... (http://www.roland.com/products/en/exp/COSM.html) Purely what I was going on.
Quote by Reincaster
-Digital does NOT mean it is automatically noisy. That's one of the advantages of DAW's and digital mixers is the fact that the noise floor is very low. Saying digital anything is noisy, is like saying the tube amps don't have a lot of gain because the Hot Rod Deluxe doesn't have a lot of gain. The design is important.
I realise I said digital is noisy, I should have said can be noisy instead (I will edit that to reflect) because you are quite right, digital can be fantastic. However, digital in a stomp box running on 9V especially one in the boss price range, is in my experience, always pretty noisy, and daisy chaining is just not viable.
Quote by Reincaster
In short, you point out real facts and experiences, but you're missing a few parts of the picture. :cheers
If you still think I've missed anything please feel to correct me further

EDIT: Also, my flu-bug is turning my head to mush so go gently please
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Last edited by GABarrie at Mar 7, 2013,
#9
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after eating tomatoes all week.

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#10
same thing as any company does like digitech etc. they like to sound special.

for laymans terms you can catagorize all of these into "mass produced, digital" pedals.

boss are pretty solid pedals for being THEE brand in guitar efects. pretty much a benchmark everywhere on earth. everyone knows em, has owned em, uses em.....

but yeah take it with a grain of salt. play it, like it, buy it. or not.
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#11
Quote by GABarrie
I agree about the modelling that tries to work like analog circuits, I was attempting to keep it simple, plus he was talking about pedals so was kinda focusing there... I also would describe pedals like the AC Tone, Plexitone, etc. as emulators rather than modellers, maybe it's a distinction without a different, but that's how it is in my head.
Roland describe COSM as DSP... Digital signal processor... (http://www.roland.com/products/en/exp/COSM.html) Purely what I was going on.
I realise I said digital is noisy, I should have said can be noisy instead (I will edit that to reflect) because you are quite right, digital can be fantastic. However, digital in a stomp box running on 9V especially one in the boss price range, is in my experience, always pretty noisy, and daisy chaining is just not viable.
If you still think I've missed anything please feel to correct me further

EDIT: Also, my flu-bug is turning my head to mush so go gently please


I use a LOT of digital modeling with my rig. I'm more concerned if BOSS was just using pseudo-high technological terms to try to make their technology sound impressive.

Digital is only shit when the programming is shit. You punch in a few line codes to recreate an analog effect and it'll sound like replicated artificial garbage. You put in a bunch of programming to recreate all the nuances and it'll sound good.
I use a lot of VST plugins for my tone.

I'd love to have a 2k monster amp, but it's not really ideal for me.


On topic: BOSS doesn't need to bullshit people with this doublespeak and secondary terms. COSM should just be called modeling, and MDP should be called by whatever common term is used to what it really means.
Pretty soon we're going to be hearing about how their pedals use rocket science modeling and processors from another galaxy.
Last edited by Clay-man at Mar 7, 2013,
#12
Quote by GABarrie

Roland describe COSM as DSP... Digital signal processor... (http://www.roland.com/products/en/exp/COSM.html)


On that same page: "Roland's breakthrough Composite Object Sound Modeling (COSM) uses the advantages of multiple modeling methods", More than just digital.

As far as the pedals I mentioned being "emulators", what's the difference? Emulation is to reproduce or copy, correct? It's all semantics at this point.

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#13


Indeed, as for the thing on COSM, I am apparently unable to read this morning, clearly due another Lemsip

On emulation vs. modelling, modelling to me says trying to shape a sound into something specific, emulation says trying to get a circuit to behave the same way as something else, it may even have the same end result but the means are different
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Last edited by GABarrie at Mar 7, 2013,
#15
Quote by GABarrie


Indeed, as for the thing on COSM, I am apparently unable to read this morning, clearly due another Lemsip

On emulation vs. modelling, modelling to me says trying to shape a sound into something specific, emulation says trying to get a circuit to behave the same way as something else, it may even have the same end result but the means are different


Emulation to me is getting something to execute the exact same functions with different hardware.
Kind of like emulations for games. The game is an exact copy of the original game, but it's running on different hardware than what it's supposed to, so programming is used to translate the game to be used on that hardware it's emulated on.

Another term is simulation, which I view it is like emulation, but is not functioning the same, but as close as they can get it by A/B comparison.

That's why amp modeling is also called amp simulation.

For something that uses the same exact hardware but isn't the official product it's copying, I'd call it a clone product.
#16
Yeah it's just bullshit marketing terms for the most part.

BTW if you want to see something cool uses actual analog modeling (as in switching between different preamp and tone circuits by using relays) look into the fender cyber-twin. I use on frequently and the accuracy of the sounds it models are damn good. It may not be perfect, but it sounds like what you expect the amps it models to sound like. The ability to mix and match preamp styles, tone stacks, and gain structures makes for a lot of versatility and tone personalization.
#17
Quote by Clay-man
On topic: BOSS doesn't need to bullshit people with this doublespeak and secondary terms. COSM should just be called modeling, and MDP should be called by whatever common term is used to what it really means.
Pretty soon we're going to be hearing about how their pedals use rocket science modeling and processors from another galaxy.

Right. So Roland should scrap all of their marketing tactics and just go with "Hey guys, it's just another modeller. Nothing to see here."

Why haven't you sold your ideas to them for millions yet?
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#18
Quote by Eppicurt
Right. So Roland should scrap all of their marketing tactics and just go with "Hey guys, it's just another modeller. Nothing to see here."

Why haven't you sold your ideas to them for millions yet?


You serious? It's false advertisement, that's why.
It doesn't matter that they're a market, they shouldn't be lying to people about their products.
That's like if they started calling their compact pedals "micro-sized first class guitar signal enhancers". They don't need to pussyfoot around and **** with people like that.

They should market to people that are already being marketed towards. If people are looking for specific stuff, then they should state what it is, not what it isn't.

"Hey guys my modeling uses special line code executions that other modelers probably don't use! Ergo I will call it something complex to BS people into thinking it's some new generation technology that not even rocket scientists have touched yet! I know these terms aren't applied ANYWHERE in the modeling and computer world, but we'll just pull it out of our butts and use it because we're that innovative!"

It doesn't work that way.
#19
Are you serious?

You don't understand how advertising works do you. In what way, shape or form are they falsely advertising? They're not claiming that it will make you play better, get you more women or that you'll win the lottery if you buy the pedal. They're just calling their processing and pedal design something fancy to attract people. They might listen to the demo and think it's okay and buy one.

I'm sure Roland couldn't give two shits if it made you sounds better anyway. I'll say it again. Roland is a company, that wants to make money. Experienced guitarists will know the difference between bullshit and truth, but newer and inexperienced guitarists don't and that's what they're aiming for.

Are Ibanez falsely advertising the Tubescreamer when there's no tubes in there? No. Are Peavey falsely advertising with the Valveking when it's clearly not the king of valves? No. Marketing wouldn't exist without fancy and enticing names.

You're getting far too upset by all of this.
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#20
I think the Google search function got a serious workout with all this "knowledge" about modeling being thrown around. Internet Einsteins abound in this thread!
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#21
Quote by Eppicurt
Are you serious?

You don't understand how advertising works do you. In what way, shape or form are they falsely advertising? They're not claiming that it will make you play better, get you more women or that you'll win the lottery if you buy the pedal. They're just calling their processing and pedal design something fancy to attract people. They might listen to the demo and think it's okay and buy one.

I'm sure Roland couldn't give two shits if it made you sounds better anyway. I'll say it again. Roland is a company, that wants to make money. Experienced guitarists will know the difference between bullshit and truth, but newer and inexperienced guitarists don't and that's what they're aiming for.

Are Ibanez falsely advertising the Tubescreamer when there's no tubes in there? No. Are Peavey falsely advertising with the Valveking when it's clearly not the king of valves? No. Marketing wouldn't exist without fancy and enticing names.

You're getting far too upset by all of this.


You're the one who doesn't get it. Insert pretentious smiley

You're extremely taking things too literally.
There's a different between a catchy name and trying to market false technology.
It's false advertisement because it's claiming that it's something beyond modeling when it's only modeling.

Tubescreamer is called tubescreamer because it sounds like a tube overdrive. It's in no way trying to claim that it's something it's not, it's just a name.

Your Valveking argument is also incredibly ridiculous.
Let's apply your logic against you. Peavey is a company that wants to make money. Valveking sounds like a powerful name. Does that mean the amp literally sits on a throne commanding all other tube amps to bow before it? No.

You're being way too defensive. Maybe you like BOSS, cool, good for you, but once again. There is no such thing as COSM or MDP, which is marketed as literally being something.
#22
There is such a thing as COSM and MDP, they actually do stuff, it may be nothing that other people don't but it's their system and they've given it a fancy acronym. Saying they don't exist because they are "modelling" is like saying the dual rectifier, twin reverb, bassman, jtm45 don't exist, because they are "amps".

People name things, it's how they work. Fractal call theirs G2 in the Axe-FX II, Roland call theirs COSM, they came up with a new system and called it something else.
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#23
Quote by GABarrie
There is such a thing as COSM and MDP, they actually do stuff, it may be nothing that other people don't but it's their system and they've given it a fancy acronym. Saying they don't exist because they are "modelling" is like saying the dual rectifier, twin reverb, bassman, jtm45 don't exist, because they are "amps".

People name things, it's how they work. Fractal call theirs G2 in the Axe-FX II, Roland call theirs COSM, they came up with a new system and called it something else.


That's why I asked if it's real or not. If it's actually functioning in a new way to accomplish what it's doing, then yes they have a reason to call their stuff what they call it.
Like calling a processor multitasking multi-threading.
#25
Quote by Clay-man
That's why I asked if it's real or not. If it's actually functioning in a new way to accomplish what it's doing, then yes they have a reason to call their stuff what they call it.
Like calling a processor multitasking multi-threading.


Of course its real.

Its Roland's system, so they can call it what they want.

God I hope you never look into Black star amps.

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#26
Quote by Tom 1.0
Of course its real.

Its Roland's system, so they can call it what they want.

God I hope you never look into Black star amps.





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#27
Quote by Clay-man
That's why I asked if it's real or not. If it's actually functioning in a new way to accomplish what it's doing, then yes they have a reason to call their stuff what they call it.
Like calling a processor multitasking multi-threading.
It doesn't have to be a "new way" for them to call it that.

It functions in THEIR way, modelling has to be programmed, and can be copyrighted. I'm willing to bet Roland don't share their technology therefore no one else's modelling functions the same way.
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#28
I don't see any bullshit or false advertising. The name of the tech infers digital. "Roland's Multi-Dimensional Processing technology have been launched...." with the operative word being "Processing".

And the tech is unique and claiming false advertisement imo is ignorant.

Boss/Roland states.. "MDP technology essentially examines the audio signals from an instrument and then cuts and slices them up into multiple frequencies and processes each one individually, to instantly deliver all-new sonic textures with,"

So this is telling me that it is different than conventional modelers by the fact that it is processing multiple frequency's individually - as opposed to processing the reference signal as a whole.... which seems to me a unique approach... if you are into that sort of thing.
Last edited by 667 at Mar 8, 2013,
#29
BMW calling their navigation system iDrive is shenanigans too. As is Audi's MMI and MB's COMAND. Screw trying to differentiate yourself in a crowded marketplace.
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#31
Quote by GABarrie
It doesn't have to be a "new way" for them to call it that.

It functions in THEIR way, modelling has to be programmed, and can be copyrighted. I'm willing to bet Roland don't share their technology therefore no one else's modelling functions the same way.


I'm sure no company wants to share their modeling or technology.


Like I said, I asked if it was real or bullshit. Some said it's bullshit, some said it isn't, no one provided any evidence that it's not bullshit until recently.

Their explanation for Multi Dimensional Processing makes sense, doing multiple analysis on the incoming signal, ergo being processed in multiple dimensions.
#32
Is the pedal really doing something? Yes, clearly it is.

Is the pedal doing something that Roland designed and therefore has a right to name? Yes, this is clearly true as well.

Is the pedal doing something so groundbreaking that it really needs a new name? No, it doesn't seem so...
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#33
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