Klonoa87
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#1
Title says it all. I've heard the concept before but not quite sure what it is. Help would be appreciated!
Junior#1
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#2
I've never heard that. But in music, the fifth refers to the fifth degree or fifth note of the scale.
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gerraguitar
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#3
the only thing I can think of is for something like a harp player, but i think they play a 4th away, so if you are playing in the key of G, then they are playing in the key of C. I mean, reversely you're playing a 5th away from them....but i don't know if that's what you're getting at
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#5
It merely means to harmonize a melody with the fifth of it in the scale. Are you guys serious?
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#6
Quote by Klonoa87
Title says it all. I've heard the concept before but not quite sure what it is. Help would be appreciated!

It means taking the riff you're playing and starting it from the 5th degree of the scale. (If your playing an A minor riff and you start on A, a 5th harmony would start on E). It's done a lot in metal to achieve a very dramatic sound especially during a melodic lead line though plenty of other styles us it too. The 5th isn't the only one you can harmonize to, and each degree that you harmonize with creates a different "feel". 5th's create an "epic" feel while minor 3rd harmonies create a "sadder" sound.
This is how it sounds, usually you need 2 guitarists unless you have a backing track, or a loop affect or in this case, a pedal with a harmonizing function.
Disclaimer: This is NOT the best example of it being used but it's just to get the idea across. It's not meant to sound like a master guitar, it's just a demo. Just like the description on the video says, Metallica uses it a lot and in particular on their Master of Puppets song.
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Last edited by LightxGrenade at Mar 12, 2013,
Klonoa87
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#7
No, it's not about harmonizing melodies. I know this concept is grounded in blues playing..
I'm trying to remember whatever I can, it was explained to me about a year ago. I could be completely off base but I thought it went something like this...over a progression in G maj you would play a lead in g mixolydian. That could be very wrong though. So far Gerraguitar has come the closest, that relationship he noted, (g being a 5th away from c and inversely c being a fourth away from g), hope we can figure it out....
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#8
Quote by Klonoa87
I'm trying to remember whatever I can, it was explained to me about a year ago.

By who?
Klonoa87
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#9
^a guitar teacher. I'd love to ask him but I've since moved and lost his contact info
cdgraves
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#10
You mean "out" playing, where you play a familiar pattern over a different root?

If that's what you mean, then playing a 5th away is the same as playing in the lydian mode of your home key. If you're in G and you play a 5th up, you're playing the same notes as D major, which converts to G lydian when you put it in the relevant key.
gerraguitar
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#12
I don't know man, i think you might be confusing yourself, you're confusing me at least. I don't know if you understand what you're actually asking, if you're actually asking a question that needs an answer or if youre just asking about a musical aesthetic. If you're not talking about a harmony then perhaps you're thinking of a way of playing over something? The whole "Sweet Home Alabama" thing when he solos in G but the song is kinda in D but its ok because it's modal....
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#13
Quote by gerraguitar
The whole "Sweet Home Alabama" thing when he solos in G but the song is kinda in D but its ok because it's modal....


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#14
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#15
Quote by cdgraves
... you're playing the same notes as D major, which converts to G lydian when you put it in the relevant key.

No, you are playing in D major. It's not G lydian, it's D major, and the relevant key is D major because you are playing in D major, more than likely because the tonal centre changed, and you are no longer in the key of G.

See how simple the key system is? Why make everything more complicated than it needs to be?
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AlanHB
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#17
Quote by cdgraves
It's in G. It's just a V IV I, jesus christ.


To be fair even the band could not agree on what key it was in.

But the main point is that the harmonic context does not magically change because you used a certain pattern of notes.
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Sean0913
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#18
Quote by Klonoa87
Title says it all. I've heard the concept before but not quite sure what it is. Help would be appreciated!


Whatever you just did or do in X take that same thing and move a 5th down the scale.

In C take that and move to G

In E take it to B and start there, etc.

Whatever "key" you are in, determine the 5th note/degree of that, and move it to that note and do the same thing starting from that note.

Best,

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#19
Quote by cdgraves
It's in G. It's just a V IV I, jesus christ.

To me it sounds more like D. I-bVII-IV. I don't know, it just feels like it resolves to D more than G. I would end the song with a D chord. That's just me.

But if you needed to do a one note bassline over the song, would you play D or G? IMO D would sound better.
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cdgraves
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#20
The only thing D has going for it is being the first chord in the progression, which is rarely definitive of key. It spends twice as much time on G as the other chords, the harmony resolves to G, and every melody in song first perfectly into G, including the guitar solos. It's pretty hard to say that it feels like it resolves to D when it never actually does.
gerraguitar
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#21
Quote by cdgraves
The only thing D has going for it is being the first chord in the progression, which is rarely definitive of key. It spends twice as much time on G as the other chords, the harmony resolves to G, and every melody in song first perfectly into G, including the guitar solos. It's pretty hard to say that it feels like it resolves to D when it never actually does.


Ok first of all....it's not rare to see the first harmony of a song be the key...

second, if you've played through the song at least once, not even the whole way through, you'd realize that D works just as well as G. Yes, we all know that the key sig shows G and theres no such thing as the key of D mixo, but you can certainly play in D mixo, I don't think it's hard to say it resolves to D, but G is cool too, G makes it sound more hip than it actually is because you can land on the B a lot which has that 6th sound for those who feel it in D.
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#22
Quote by cdgraves
The only thing D has going for it is being the first chord in the progression, which is rarely definitive of key. It spends twice as much time on G as the other chords, the harmony resolves to G, and every melody in song first perfectly into G, including the guitar solos. It's pretty hard to say that it feels like it resolves to D when it never actually does.

IMO it just feels more like D major. I would end the song with a D chord. You hear it differently than I do. But that's just how I feel it goes.

EDIT: Listen to Wicked Game. It's kind of similar but just in minor (Bm-A-E). And IMO it's clearly in B minor. But otherwise it's a similar chord progression, only in minor.
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Mar 13, 2013,
cdgraves
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#23
Here's a video of Lynyrd Skynyrd playing the song in 1976, and ending it with a 30-second roll off on G.

youtube.com/watch?v=Y2iu05rg5Bo

Tell me again how you'd end that song someone else wrote?

If you want to compare apples to apples, here find a few of the million+ songs built on the same root motion and actually listen to what makes the difference between tonicizing the first and last chord in the progression (or, in this case, retrogression).

Listen to the song "Franklin's Tower", by the Grateful Dead. It's A G D, but the tonic is A. Why? RHYTHM. The rhythmic treatment of the G as a passing harmony sets up up a functional I IV vamp. With equal rhythmic emphasis given to both A and D, you actually have to defer to which one comes first, because a V-I vamp is aurally disorienting, while a I IV is completely normal.

"Sweet Home Alabama" treats all three of its chords as a functional harmony, which is the tradition of blues-based three chord music - to use the simplest harmonies possible to condense the tonic-predominant-dominant progression into a single phrase.

Quote by gerraguitar
Ok first of all....it's not rare to see the first harmony of a song be the key...

second, if you've played through the song at least once, not even the whole way through, you'd realize that D works just as well as G. Yes, we all know that the key sig shows G and theres no such thing as the key of D mixo, but you can certainly play in D mixo, I don't think it's hard to say it resolves to D, but G is cool too, G makes it sound more hip than it actually is because you can land on the B a lot which has that 6th sound for those who feel it in D.


I said it's rarely definitive, meaning that it alone is rarely the only factor to consider when there is ambiguity. You can't really analyze a piece of music by looking at the harmonies alone - their treatment in terms of rhythm, melody, and form are what define the overall harmonic context.

And where is this mysterious resolution to D? there are three chords in that piece of shit song, and none of them beg for resolution to D. Dmajor to Cmajor, however, does beg for resolution to G, and its rhythmic treatment in the song reinforces that.

If you want to hear what a song actually built on a I-bVII, listen to some Grateful Dead or Phish, they're all over the mixolydian. "Sweet Home Alabama" is just plain G major. No need to make this complicated.
Last edited by cdgraves at Mar 13, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
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#24
Quote by cdgraves
Here's a video of Lynyrd Skynyrd playing the song in 1976, and ending it with a 30-second roll off on G.

youtube.com/watch?v=Y2iu05rg5Bo

Tell me again how you'd end that song someone else wrote?

If you want to compare apples to apples, here find a few of the million+ songs built on the same root motion and actually listen to what makes the difference between tonicizing the first and last chord in the progression (or, in this case, retrogression).

Listen to the song "Franklin's Tower", by the Grateful Dead. It's A G D, but the tonic is A. Why? RHYTHM. The rhythmic treatment of the G as a passing harmony sets up up a functional I IV vamp. With equal rhythmic emphasis given to both A and D, you actually have to defer to which one comes first, because a V-I vamp is aurally disorienting, while a I IV is completely normal.

"Sweet Home Alabama" treats all three of its chords as a functional harmony, which is the tradition of blues-based three chord music - to use the simplest harmonies possible to condense the tonic-predominant-dominant progression into a single phrase.


I said it's rarely definitive, meaning that it alone is rarely the only factor to consider when there is ambiguity. You can't really analyze a piece of music by looking at the harmonies alone - their treatment in terms of rhythm, melody, and form are what define the overall harmonic context.

And where is this mysterious resolution to D? there are three chords in that piece of shit song, and none of them beg for resolution to D. Dmajor to Cmajor, however, does beg for resolution to G, and its rhythmic treatment in the song reinforces that.

If you want to hear what a song actually built on a I-bVII, listen to some Grateful Dead or Phish, they're all over the mixolydian. "Sweet Home Alabama" is just plain G major. No need to make this complicated.

I just said how I feel about the song. I just feel like it resolves to D, what can I do about it? Your explanations don't make me hear like it goes to G, I just feel like the tonal center is D, OK? I would end the song with D. But sometimes it's cool to end the song with something other than the I chord because it kind of leaves it "open". For example Wicked Game ends with E major chord. And I think that song is in B minor. As I said, otherwise the chords are similar to Sweet Home Alabama but the first chord is minor.

But this is how I feel it, and you feel it in your way. We may not hear the same song the same way. Everybody hears things a bit differently.

And now there are two guys who feel like it's in D so I'm not the only one. And if AlanHB is correct, even the band doesn't know whether it's in D or G.
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#25
Lynyrd Skynyrd doesn't have to know 2+2=4, but it's still true.
Klonoa87
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#27
This topic is probably mostly forgotten by now but with the help of my teacher I have figured it out. The concept is actually playin a FOURTH away and it goes like this. It works with progressions of dominant chords. Basically you treat each chord change as a key change, I'll give and example so it makes more sense.
Our chord progression will be: A7, D9, E7, bluesy I IV V kinda deal.
Since technically each key has 1 dominant chord we can easily figure out the key changes.
The A7 belongs to the key of D so play A mixolydian over it.
The D9 belongs to the key of G so play A Dorian over it.
And finally the E7 belongs to the key of A so play A major over it.

And that's it! It sounds pretty cool and gives you a unique sound that still sounds "right".