#1
Which guitar amp should I buy to get the "Nightwish" sound/ sound suited for goth metal?

Budget is no issue.
Thanks
#2
Pretty sure they use mostly Mesa Boogie Dual or Triple Recs, can't remember exactly.
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#5
I know Fibble played alot of this sort of stuff....

I would say a HD147 by Line 6 is worth a look, especially if you dont want to pitch for a Mesa or Diezel.

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#7
Definitely Dual Rectifier.

2 Channel would be better than 3.

You basically need a sledgehammer tone, that's not too aggressive or in your face (like the 6505).

An Uberschall would probably also work well, if want to check them out (read: can afford one).

A Peavey XXX/3120 could probably get you in that ballpark on the cheap (roll the highs back though).
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

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(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
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Last edited by Offworld92 at Mar 21, 2013,
#8
Hm. Never listened to any Nightwish...I like it.
Guitars
- Strandberg OS6, Strandberg CL7, Gibson LP Studio, S570DXQM, RG7421, Mayer Strat, Partscaster

Amps
- TC-50, Mark Five:25, Invective (soon), Vypyr 60
#9
^ if you liked that, then try Eternal Tears of Sorrow and Dark Tranquillity, both better bands IMO.

Not throwing any digs at nightwish, just making suggestions...
#10
I realise this post is very long. Guess what, this is my Mastermind specialist subject. If you want the quick answer: Mesa Dual Rectifier, some very expensive custom ESPs and a lot of pedals. Congrats. If you want to know why, or alternatives, keep reading.

Quote by Tom 1.0
I know Fibble played alot of this sort of stuff....

I would say a HD147 by Line 6 is worth a look, especially if you dont want to pitch for a Mesa or Diezel.
Hells yeah.

The main reason why I bought the HD147 was because it was the touring amp of Evanscence (Flextones for recording) and the recording & touring amp of Lacuna Coil. I've since found out that The Birthday Massacre also use Vettas and Flextones.

Suffice to say if there is any one thing it can do, it's gothic and alternative metal.

That said, Nightwish used Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifiers for most of their recordings up until the last couple of years. More importantly than that, however, is Emppu' huge pedal board and two rack EQ units. He's got everything from modified Boss Metal Zones to original Tube Screamers, several wahs, lots of reverb, delay and modulation effects, a rack compressor and then he's got his rack EQs that come both after the Mesa's preamp and after the power amp. For their most recent recordings he is using a separate rack preamp and power amp, god knows what brand or model; he's only been using the Mesas for a few live shows. He's also been known to use old Marshalls on a few recordings, but there is no record of which specific models (I would assume JCM900s or modded 800s by the sound of it). For cabinets he switches between a couple of old Marshalls (god knows what speakers are in them) and some new Mesa cabs (apparently loaded with V30s) most often, though he's used lots of other stuff. When he's using the rack only he doesn't have cabs at all, he's either running into an isolated enclosure and miked or he's going direct to PA. They tour so much and in so many different places, his gear is changed on a nightly basis.

If budget really is no issue then buy a Mesa Dual Rectifier, several rack processing units, rack preamp and power amp, every Boss pedal ever made and some old Mashall cabs. Now pay for a good tech who can switch everything on and off as you play, or only play in a studio. Incidentally, this is basically also what Ruud Jolie from Within Temptation uses. Dual Rectifier + huge rack/pedal board + tech operating it all for you is a standard of goth rock.

I think it's probably safe to say that you can't actually get all of that in place, though, so have some alternatives!

  • Line 6 HD147 or Vetta/Vetta II: It may be scary for some people to touch a solid state amp, but Emppu's sound goes through so much processing anyway it really does not matter. It's not like he's using an old Plexi and driving it hard. These are cheap, there's not much that can go wrong with them and you can get every tone used by Nightwish or any other band in the genre. Downside is if you do ever want to switch to a more standard metal tone (let alone blues or classic rock), it's not going to sound full enough. Also, other guitar and bass players will see the big 'Line 6' logo and sneer.
  • Marshall TSL: Inherently a bit thicker-sounding, but push the mid scoop in and set the treble and presence controls high enough and you're sorted. Quite a dark-sounding amp, which usually is bad for Marshall, but in this instance it would work. You'd need a lot of pedals to get the variety in tones you need, though, since the TSL's three channels pretty much only differ in gain. Get a noise gate though, since you'll have to crank both the gain and treble really high.
  • Marshall Mode Four or newer JCM900: Yes, they're hybrids. Boo! But they can sound pretty decent and, most importantly, they can sound right for this sort of music. If you fancy Nightwish's earliest (and simpler) tones more than their new stuff, these would be ideal. Again, a noise gate will be necessary in order to push the gain high enough.
  • Peavey 6505: its hard to go wrong with Peavey heads for any kind of metal. I'm not a fan because none of them come with enough control to easily switch between the main sounds used in this kind of music, but with a sufficiently large pedal board, this may not be such an issue.
  • Spider Valve MkII: take the HD147/Vetta, remove about half the tones and add in valves to both the preamp and power amp. It'll still have that dreaded Line 6 logo on it, but it does the job. These are the amps that Lacuna Coil currently use most often. It can do the over-processed Nightwish tone and it can do the plainer and warmer Within Temptation sort of thing. It's not exciting, many people would be embarrassed to be seen near one and it's an approximation of tone rather than an exact duplication, but it's a damn close approximation.
  • Carvin V3M: it's basically a smaller Dual Rectifier. Boring, but it gets the job done. Does it sound a little cheaper? Yes. Does it cost a third as much? Yes. Up to you whether the slightly weaker sound is worth the huge savings.
  • Blackstar Series One 1046L6: you wouldn't be saving much money compared to just buying a Dual Rectifier, but it's enough of a saving to get this, a nice cab and a decent range of pedals for what just the Mesa costs. Even if money really is no issue for you, I don't see the point in spending money just for the sake of it. Turn the Blackstar's ISF knob all the way to the 'American' side and use the power reduction to get it to a point where you're getting good power amp saturation and compression at whatever volume you're playing at.


No matter what you buy, you'll need a good pedal board too. This should contain at least:
Volume
Wah
Delay set for short repeats
Delay set for long repeats
Reverb set low
Reverb set very strong
A few EQ pedals: mid boost, mid cut, bass cut
Chorus
Flange
Leslie simulator
Compressor (set very light)

Obviously you could use just one delay and change its setings between songs, do the same with reverb and EQ and the flange and Leslie sim can stand in for each other, but you get the idea.


The last important things are the guitars and pickups. No matter what guitar he's used, Emppu always has a Seymour Duncan Custom in the bridge, a Jazz in the neck and, where applicable, a Hot Rails in the middle. His guitars are all bright-toned (lots of maple and ebony) with recessed Floyd Rose bridges and an even mix of set neck, bolt-on and neck-through construction. He's used .010, .0105 and .011 strings. His action is apparently set just a bit higher than the lowest possible action, to keep his playing clean and clearer. The neck and middle pickups are set quite far from the strings. His tone controls are disconnected (some of his guitars don't have more than one volume control).
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#11
Quote by MrFlibble

The main reason why I bought the HD147 was because it was the touring amp of Evanscence (Flextones for recording) and the recording & touring amp of Lacuna Coil. I've since found out that The Birthday Massacre also use Vettas and Flextones.


It might be used by Evanescence and Lacuna Coil, but he asked for amps for goth metal
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
#12
Quote by eddiehimself
It might be used by Evanescence and Lacuna Coil, but he asked for amps for goth metal
Don't start that shit with me, son. Nightwish, Epica, Leaves' Eyes and Within Temptation are symphonic metal. Lacuna Coil are alternative metal. Evanescence moved from indie-rock to gothic metal to gothic rock to alternative rock. The Birthday Massacre are textbook alternative. Finntroll are folk-metal. Seigmen are goth-pop. Dream Disciples were goth-electro. We Are The Fallen are alternative rock. The Gathering are symphonic metal and alternative rock. The Cure are goth-pop no matter how much they say they aren't. Maledia are symphonic doom. Poisonblack are melodic alternative metal. Strawberry Switchblade were a pop act that were the origin of everything above.

If you're going to split hairs, Tristania are the only pure gothic metal band. But they aren't, because luckily most people in the world have a reasonably-functioning brain and can recognise that while specific bands may fall slightly outside of a particular grouping, ultimately they all fit together, especially so in the case of guitar tones.
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#13
Quote by MrFlibble
Don't start that shit with me, son. Nightwish, Epica, Leaves' Eyes and Within Temptation are symphonic metal. Lacuna Coil are alternative metal. Evanescence moved from indie-rock to gothic metal to gothic rock to alternative rock. The Birthday Massacre are textbook alternative. Finntroll are folk-metal. Seigmen are goth-pop. Dream Disciples were goth-electro. We Are The Fallen are alternative rock. The Gathering are symphonic metal and alternative rock. The Cure are goth-pop no matter how much they say they aren't. Maledia are symphonic doom. Poisonblack are melodic alternative metal. Strawberry Switchblade were a pop act that were the origin of everything above.

If you're going to split hairs, Tristania are the only pure gothic metal band. But they aren't, because luckily most people in the world have a reasonably-functioning brain and can recognise that while specific bands may fall slightly outside of a particular grouping, ultimately they all fit together, especially so in the case of guitar tones.


Ok, son. I'm not starting any "shit" with you. I understand you're quite sensitive on the matter. Well so am I, as a matter of fact. Yes I understand that you can't be too specific about these sorts of things and I fully take your point on board about the guitar tones thing (I happen to agree by the way, they are the same guitar tones, which is about the only thing that is the same). But you've got to draw the line somewhere. I hardly think excluding either of those 2 bands is "splitting hairs" at all, because they are not even anywhere near being remotely gothic or metal. They're the sort of bands that 12-year-old girls who shop at Hot Topic think are gothic. Hell, why don't we say Kelly Clarkson is gothic? Or Carly Ray Jespen? They are women who sing in bands with guitars. Apparently that's all it takes to become a gothic metal band, by your description.

Quote by MrFlibble
Evanescence moved from indie-rock to gothic metal to gothic rock to alternative rock.


Evanescence were never gothic anything. They were always Top-of-the-pops shite dressed up in purple and corsets to make people want to buy their albums.
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
Last edited by eddiehimself at Mar 22, 2013,
#14
Which just goes to prove you've not actually paid any attention to what they've put out.

I mean holy ****, Evanescence's Understanding was the single biggest goth anthem of 2000 and Lies wasn't far behind. Ever been to a goth club that didn't play Lacuna Coil's Swamped four times a night? I sure as hell haven't found such a place. Hell, that song alone set up the foundation of every big goth rock and metal hit that's come along since.

You might as well try to claim Ke$ha isn't pop.


OP: apologies for the derailment.
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Last edited by MrFlibble at Mar 22, 2013,
#15
Quote by eddiehimself

Evanescence were never gothic anything. They were always Top-of-the-pops shite dressed up in purple and corsets to make people want to buy their albums.


Regardless of your semantics, the tone is virtually all the same. The biggest difference on a musical level is how prominent orchestral arrangements are. I'm up for a genre war as much as anyone, but we're guitarists here, talking about tone. Goth metal, alternative metal, even nu metal, it all utilizes the same exact building blocks.

On a semantic level, have you heard anything they've done before Fallen? Origin?
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
Last edited by Offworld92 at Mar 22, 2013,
#16
I thought Nightwish used Engls?

I must be wrong then!
Bass Gear:

Mensinger: Speesy
Fender Precision 1989 (CIJ Rosewood)
Fender Steve Harris (CIJ)
Lakland J Sonic 5
Epiphone Explorer
Maruszczyk (custom) Jake

Ashdown CTM 100
#17
Quote by MrFlibble
Pwn ass post including...

"No matter what you buy, you'll need a good pedal board too. This should contain at least:
Volume
Wah
Delay set for short repeats
Delay set for long repeats
Reverb set low
Reverb set very strong
A few EQ pedals: mid boost, mid cut, bass cut
Chorus
Flange
Leslie simulator
Compressor (set very light)"


So you think my Tremoverb and M13 would get in the ballpark?
Guitars
- Strandberg OS6, Strandberg CL7, Gibson LP Studio, S570DXQM, RG7421, Mayer Strat, Partscaster

Amps
- TC-50, Mark Five:25, Invective (soon), Vypyr 60