#1
Beginner,just shy of 1 year,working my way through a "Practical Music Theory" book..

I have a grasp of figuring the numbers,unisons-octaves-4ths-7ths etc.,and major-minor-augmented-diminished...

The next part is on applying the "trick" of "effect both",raising or lowering the root and top notes a semitone for easier calculation,when confronted with an excessive number of sharps/flats.....

My question:At some point does it become readily apparent when to apply this trick,short of noticing,during a string of calculation,the occurrence of many sharps/flats?
#6
what the balls are you attempting to communicate here

there's no way a book called "practical music theory" said this, or else you're entitled to your money back on the grounds that the title's completely inaccurate
#7
@ :-D

No?....Care to reconsider?

Calculating intervals are done using the major scale formula of TTSTTS....T=Tone...S=Semitone.....Yes?

Major scale is a 7 note run,in which "letter" notes may not repeat..Yes?

The Major scale comes back onto the key note as a perfect octave at the end of that 7 note run...Yes?


The Major scale,depending on the key may contain varied numbers of sharps or flats,but never both...Yes?

Intervals are ALWAYS calculated from the KEY of the lowest note,the root note.....Yes?

Using that formula the intervalic distance between C to D is a Major 2nd.....Yes?

Calculating F# to C#,for example,cannot be done using tht TTSTTTS formula without repeating a letter note,at some point during the 7 note run....You with me?

So the "effect both" trick comes into play by lowering the key/root note F# to an F and also lowering the top note of C# to a C,avoiding repeating "letter" notes and resulting in a distance of perfect 5th....Yes?

In that context my question,in the OP,which was:"At some point does it become readily apparent when to apply this trick,short of noticing,during a string of calculation,the occurrence of many sharps/flats?",makes perfect sense,even to my 12 year old Grandson who also is learning guitar....

For the record the book I cite is actually titled Practical Music Theory....It is written by Justin Sandercoe,who is referred to in numerous other topic threads in this very forum,one way or another as an expert,and does in fact say everything you seem to think it does not....Although it doesn't answer my question of At some point does it become readily apparent when to apply this trick,to which the answer is a very simple yes.....

I'm glad I didn't try to confuse you by asking about double sharps or double flats.....
#9
Nah don't bother.....If you're confused over multiple series of little dots,your opinion will have no bearing....Certainly not since I already know the answer to each question I posed,how to calculate intervals and had my OP question resolved...

After all,your opinion that quote,"there's no way a book called "practical music theory" said this, or else you're entitled to your money back on the grounds that the title's completely inaccurate", proved to be worthless and inaccurate.......I'm not interested in further displays of your misguided and unwarranted condescension..
#10
if there's anybody who is confused over how to use the "series of little dots" it's you, my dear fellow

i'll still look at this again later, but see the post above the one i originally made; the confusion as to what you're trying to get at is not mine alone
#11
I actually do have a basic grasp of the rules governing usage of Ellipses.....But,(grammar cops also frown on beginning sentences with but),I don't care,for one.....Two IF i use them..HOW I use them and whether correctly or not,( I agree it is not),has absolutely nothing to do with the question asked in the OP or any resulting replies...

That someone can not make sense of an extremely simple question is neither any concern to me nor something I care to attempt to remedy.....

And,(grammar cop alert),your upcoming opinion is still moot...........................................
#13
Quote by F Mann
@ :-D

No?....Care to reconsider?

Calculating intervals are done using the major scale formula of TTSTTS....T=Tone...S=Semitone.....Yes?

Major scale is a 7 note run,in which "letter" notes may not repeat..Yes?

The Major scale comes back onto the key note as a perfect octave at the end of that 7 note run...Yes?


The Major scale,depending on the key may contain varied numbers of sharps or flats,but never both...Yes?

Intervals are ALWAYS calculated from the KEY of the lowest note,the root note.....Yes?

Using that formula the intervalic distance between C to D is a Major 2nd.....Yes?

Calculating F# to C#,for example,cannot be done using tht TTSTTTS formula without repeating a letter note,at some point during the 7 note run....You with me?

So the "effect both" trick comes into play by lowering the key/root note F# to an F and also lowering the top note of C# to a C,avoiding repeating "letter" notes and resulting in a distance of perfect 5th....Yes?

In that context my question,in the OP,which was:"At some point does it become readily apparent when to apply this trick,short of noticing,during a string of calculation,the occurrence of many sharps/flats?",makes perfect sense,even to my 12 year old Grandson who also is learning guitar....

For the record the book I cite is actually titled Practical Music Theory....It is written by Justin Sandercoe,who is referred to in numerous other topic threads in this very forum,one way or another as an expert,and does in fact say everything you seem to think it does not....Although it doesn't answer my question of At some point does it become readily apparent when to apply this trick,to which the answer is a very simple yes.....

I'm glad I didn't try to confuse you by asking about double sharps or double flats.....


Lmao you think you're smart but this "trick" you asked about is common sense.

No shit if F# and C# is a perfect 5th, F to C would be. As would Fb to Cb and Fbb to Cbb and Fbbbbbbbbbbbbbb to Cbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
#14
Quote by ouchies
Lmao you think you're smart but this "trick" you asked about is common sense.

No shit if F# and C# is a perfect 5th, F to C would be. As would Fb to Cb and Fbb to Cbb and Fbbbbbbbbbbbbbb to Cbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

^ouchies - don't be an ass. He's just started learning intervals. What is obvious to you is not necessarily "common sense". Working out intervals requires specific prior musical knowledge (i.e. is not "common sense"). For example P5 up from F is C, P5 above G is D, P5 above A is E, P5 above B...to a beginner or a layman "common sense" would suggest F but it is F#. "Common sense" is unreliable for calculating intervals.

Is that really how you treat people that are learning? If you want to act that way toward people learning things then go to class teaching prisoners to read and give them a hard time because they don't know what sounds the letters represent.

Everyone when they started had to have a some way to calculate intervals.

Whether you used a different way does not mean your way was better. It seems this way works just fine. Seems there are a few people in this thread that have no understanding or respect for learning processes.

Consider a child learning addition. There are numerous "tricks" taught to kids these days to allow them to add and subtract faster or easier. Some of them are useful to some kids and other kids don't really get it or see it as complicated preferring other methods.

For example 38 + 47. For many we just see it and know the answer is 85 and the process we use is second nature. But for kids and quite a few adults it's not second nature, they have to work it out by a process.

Some kids will add 2 to the 38 to make 40 and add 3 to the 47 to get 50 40+50 is 90 then take away the 2 and take away the 3. Or they might add 2 to the 38 to get 40, 40+47 = 87 subtract the 2 to get 85. Some will take two away from the 47 (45)and add the two to the 38 (40) then add 40+45. Some will add 7 + 8 = 15 add 30+40 = 70 then add 15+70 = 85. As long as the correct answer is given and the student finds the process reliable and quick then there is nothing wrong with it.

If a kid is using a way that he understands and it gets them the correct answer then only a total douchebag would mock or deride the kids method by saying whoever taught them that is an idiot, that their trick is useless, or laugh at the kids method by saying that it's nothing more than "common sense". Such a person shouldn't be around kids that are learning maths. And so it is here, if you're not going to genuinely help the guy then don't post.

F# - C# - many just know it is a perfect fifth by looking at it. Until you know that off the top of your head you will need a way of working it out.


@F Mann

I've made a couple posts below that provide a detailed explanation on how I came to understand intervals.

Different strokes for different folks.

If the calculation method you're using works for you then there's nothing wrong with it.
It's always good to have more than one source for your information so you might find the posts below helpful, or it might just reiterate everything you already know.
Si
#15
alright i said i would go through this and i will now
Quote by F Mann
Calculating intervals are done using the major scale formula of TTSTTS....T=Tone...S=Semitone.....Yes?

you can do it this way, yes
Quote by F Mann
Major scale is a 7 note run,in which "letter" notes may not repeat..Yes?

more or less
Quote by F Mann
The Major scale comes back onto the key note as a perfect octave at the end of that 7 note run...Yes?

the repeated tonic of the key would be the eighth note in the sequence
Quote by F Mann
The Major scale,depending on the key may contain varied numbers of sharps or flats,but never both...Yes?

yes
Quote by F Mann
Intervals are ALWAYS calculated from the KEY of the lowest note,the root note.....Yes?

Using that formula the intervalic distance between C to D is a Major 2nd.....Yes?

no idea what you mean "calculated from the key", a major second is equivalent to one tone/two semitones regardless of anything about the key - the intervals are based on the major scales of the note in question, if that's what you mean to say
Quote by F Mann
Calculating F# to C#,for example,cannot be done using tht TTSTTTS formula without repeating a letter note,at some point during the 7 note run....You with me?

F#-C# is a perfect fifth, why would you need a "7 note run", it's just F#-G#-A#-B-C#

that's the "TTSTTTS formula", i've shown you a perfect fifth, i haven't repeated any letters, so what are you getting at here - if you're counting semitones you'd repeat notes, but there's no reason to do that
Quote by F Mann
So the "effect both" trick comes into play by lowering the key/root note F# to an F and also lowering the top note of C# to a C,avoiding repeating "letter" notes and resulting in a distance of perfect 5th....Yes?

it's the same exact pattern, you're replacing F#-G#-A#-B-C# with F-G-A-Bb-C

there's still no repeating and you haven't simplified anything other than using three less symbols
Quote by F Mann
In that context my question,in the OP,which was:"At some point does it become readily apparent when to apply this trick,short of noticing,during a string of calculation,the occurrence of many sharps/flats?",makes perfect sense,even to my 12 year old Grandson who also is learning guitar....

there's no "trick" here and it doesn't make any sense, as i still have no idea what you're getting at - i just showed you a perfect fifth from F#-C# using tones and semitones without repeating a letter, which invalidates the entire premise upon which you seem to be operating

yes any F up to any C is always some kind of a fifth, yes some kind of D up to any C is always some kind of a seventh, but i'm not sure how anything you wrote applies to this or really anything else
Last edited by :-D at Mar 23, 2013,
#16
F Mann - have a read through this - it might provide a different way of looking at intervals or simply reiterate what you already know...

Here's a copy and paste from post I did few years back.


Intervals:

It helps tremendously if you know your major scale since intervals are named in relation to their position in the major scale.

If you know the Major Scale well then you might want to skip to Naming Intervals

The major scale is made up of a step pattern as follows: W W H W W W H

H= half step or semitone, this is equivalent to moving one place along the chromatic scale. On the guitar this is equivalent of moving one fret.

W = Whole tone or whole step or just tone. This is equivalent to moving two places along the chromatic scale, on the guitar this is the equivalent of moving two frets.

So if the chromatic scale is
C - C#/Db - D - D#Eb - E - E#/F - F#/Gb - G - G#/Ab - A - A#/Bb - B - B#/C
and we apply our major scale step pattern starting on C, our first note is C. This is 1, or a root. If we double this note, that is play the same note in the same octave, at the same time it is said to be a unison.

So starting on our root note and moving up as prescribed by our step pattern W W H W W W H we move up a whole step - so we skip the note C#/Db and land on D for our second note in the scale.

We then move up another whole step from the D (so skip D#/Eb) and land on E for our third note of the C major scale. Following along the step pattern we then move up a half step to the very next note after E and get E#/F. Since we have already used E to name a note in this scale we will call this one F.

We carry on until we have our full scale starting with the root note C.
C D E F G A B C. This pattern carries on repeating itself for as many octaves as you have
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C etc.


Naming Intervals

There are two parts to naming an interval: Quality and Quantity
(The Quantity is the number value we use in naming an interval. The Quality is the type of interval i.e. major minor perfect augmented diminised etc.

In short to find the quantity of an interval you count the letters; to find it's quality you count the semitones.

Interval Quantity - Second, Third, Fifth, Eleventh, etc
When you count the letter you count the first letter as 1 and every letter up to the second letter in the interval. So for intervals starting with C...
C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8


So we have...
Some kind of C to some kind of D is some kind of 2nd.
Some kind of C to some kind of E is some kind of 3rd.
Some kind of C to some kind of F is some kind of 4th.
Some kind of C to some kind of G is some kind of 5th.
Some kind of C to some kind of A is some kind of 6th.
Some kind of C to some kind of B is some kind of 7th.
C to C is an 8th or an OCTave.

We can carry past the octave if we want.
Some kind of C to some kind of D is some kind of 2nd or 9th
Some kind of C to some kind of E is some kind of 3rd or 10th
Some kind of C to some kind of F is some kind of 4th or 11th etc etc you get the idea.

As you can see all we need to do to find out the kind of interval between any two notes is to start and count the first interval letter as 1 then count each letter up till we get to the right one.

So to use an example G to D# we count letters G=1 A=2 B=3 C=4 D=5. Haha so we know some kind of G to some kind of D is some kind of 5th. But what kind of 5th is it exactly?? What is the quality of that particular 5th interval?

Interval Quality - Augmented, Major, Perfect, Minor, Diminished etc
This is where our major scale comes back into play. There are two kinds of intervals found in the major scale - Major Intervals and Perfect Intervals. We'll come to why they are called what they are in a minute but first I'll just tell you which are which.
The perfect intervals are the Unison (1st or root), the 4th, the 5th, and the Octave (8th). The Major Intervals are the 2nd 3rd 6th and 7th.

As we said all the intervals in the major scale are either major or perfect. So we can apply these qualities to our major scale degrees. And we pay attention to the number of semitones (which we can work out by way of our step pattern W W H W W W H)
1 = Unison (perfect but usually just called unison) = 0 semitones
2 = Major Second = 2 semitones
3 = Major Third = 4 semitones
4 = Perfect Fourth = 5 semitones
5 = Perfect Fifth = 7 semitones
6 = Major Sixth = 9 semitones
7 = Major Seventh = 11 semitones
8 = Octave (Perfect but usually just called Octave) = 12 semitones

These distances are derived from the major scale
The step pattern in the major scale is always the same
Therefore, the distances in semitones for the major/perfect intervals are always the same.

I.E. A Major Second will always be one whole tone (two semitones). A Major Third will always be two tones (four semitones). A Perfect Fourth will always be two and a half tones (five semitones). etc etc.

So what happens when the interval we are dealing with is outside the major scale??

Well the first thing to do is determine the quantity of the interval. Is it some kind of fourth or some kind of fifth etc. You do this by counting letters. If we look at the previous example G to D# we see G A B C D, is some kind of fifth. Now we want to know it's quality.

We know the fifth in our major scale is perfect and that it is a distance of seven semitones. Thus a perfect fifth is always seven semitones up from the first note. If we count the steps from G to D# we get 8 semitones. So it's not a perfect fifth, but we know it's some kind of fifth so what is it????

When a Major or Perfect Interval is raised one semitone it becomes Augmented. Augmented? What the **** is that? It's simply when a Major or Perfect interval is raised one semitone. (So our G to D# is an augmented fifth.)

Similarly...
When a Major interval is lowered by a semitone it becomes Minor.
When a Minor or Perfect Interval is lowered by a semitone it becomes Diminished.

These relationships also works in reverse
So when a Minor Semitone is raised by a semitone it becomes Major.

Here's a little chart
[CENTER] [size="4"] _____________________
 |      Augmented      |
 ↑|---------------------|↑
 |  Major   |          |
↕|----------|  Perfect |
 |  Minor   |          |
 ↓|---------------------|↓
 |[U]     Diminished      [/U]|[/SIZE]

If you follow the arrows you should be able to see how it works.  
On the left you have your Major/Minor Intervals 
On the right are your Perfect Intervals[/CENTER]


So we can then work out any interval.

....
Si
#17
...
Inverse Intervals

Intervals are typically measured from the lower note to the higher. An inversion is when we change the relationship by making the lower of the two notes the higher note by shifting one or the other of the two notes an octave.

Going from C up to G is a Perfect Fifth but what if the G is lower than the C? What then?? What if we are going from a C down to a G??
Well lets count the letters going down. C B A G - So we know this distance is some kind of fourth. But is it Perfect Major, Minor, Augmented, or Diminished??

Well we can count the semitones and find that there are five semitones which is equal to a perfect fourth. Or we can look at inverse relationships.

If we know C up to G is a Perfect 5th then we take note of that "Perfect" Quality. When we "Invert" this interval (keep the same target note but down an octave so that it is below our starting note) the Perfect Quality remains in tact. An inversion of a Perfect Interval is always Perfect. This is what is so "Perfect" about it.

So a Perfect Fifth inverted becomes a Perfect Fourth and a Perfect Fourth Inverted becomes a Perfect Fifth.

A Major interval on the other hand becomes Minor when inverted. So if we have a Major 3rd C to E and drop the E an octave so that we are moving down from C to E the distance we move will now be a MINOR interval down. What kind of minor interval? Lets count the letters C B A G F E six letters - So it's a minor sixth (you can count the semitones to check if you want).

An Augmented Interval inverts to a Diminished interval and a Diminished interval inverts to an Augmented interval.

Now it can be easier just to always start with the lower note and work out the interval then just note whether you are travelling up from it or down to it.

Or you can just learn your inversions it's not that hard.
Remember qualities:
Perfect ⇔ Perfect
Major ⇔ Minor
Augmented ⇔ Diminished

And size:
2 ⇔ 7
3 ⇔ 6
4 ⇔ 5

1 ⇔ 1
8 ⇔ 8

 _________________________________________________________________________________________________
|             |         |[B]DISTANCE[/B] |              [B]NAME [/B]             |                                |
|             |         |   [B]in[/B]    |             [B]  of [/B]              |                                |
|[U]    [B]NAME[/B]     | [B]Numeric[/B] |[B]SEMITONES[/B]|            [B]INTERVAL[/B]            |           [b] INVERSION [/b]          [/u]|
|[U]Tonic        |    1    |    0    |           Unison/Root          |           Unison/Root          [/u]|
|             |   b2    |    1    |            Minor 2nd           |            Major 7th           |
|Super Tonic  |- - - - -|- - - - -|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
|[U]             |    2    |    2    |            Major 2nd           |            Minor 7th           [/U]|
|             |   b3    |    3    |            Minor 3rd           |            Major 6th           |
|Mediant      |- - - - -|- - - - -|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
|[U]             |    3    |    4    |            Major 3rd           |            Minor 6th           [/U]|
|[U]Sub Dominant |    4    |    5    |           Perfect 4th          |           Perfect 5th          [/U]|
|[U]Tri Tone     |  #4/b5  |    6    | Augmented 4th / Diminished 5th | Augmented 4th / Diminished 5th [/U]
|[U]Dominant     |    5    |    7    |           Perfect 5th          |           Perfect 4th          [/U]|
|             |   b6    |    8    |            Minor 6th           |            Major 3rd           |
|Sub Mediant  |- - - - -|- - - - -|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
|[U]             |    6    |    9    |            Major 6th           |            Minor 3rd           [/U]|
|Sub Tonic    |   b7    |    8    |            Minor 7th           |            Major 2nd           |
|- - - - - - -|- - - - -|- - - - -|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
|[U]Leading Tone |    7    |    11   |            Major 7th           |            Minor 2nd           [/U]|
|[U]Tonic        |    1    |    12   |              Octave            |              Octave            [/U]

Anyway I hope it helps.
Good Luck

Quote by Sean0913

I might just add to this... ...explanation of inverse intervals, that numbers which add up to the number 9 comes into play in terms of size.

i.e. Perfect 4 to invert to Perfect 5th = 4+5=9.

Major 3rd, inverts to Minor 6th. 3+6=9.

Best,

Sean

Si
#18
Quote by F Mann
@ :-D

No?....Care to reconsider?

Calculating intervals are done using the major scale formula of TTSTTS....T=Tone...S=Semitone.....Yes?

Major scale is a 7 note run,in which "letter" notes may not repeat..Yes?

The Major scale comes back onto the key note as a perfect octave at the end of that 7 note run...Yes?


The Major scale,depending on the key may contain varied numbers of sharps or flats,but never both...Yes?

Intervals are ALWAYS calculated from the KEY of the lowest note,the root note.....Yes?

Using that formula the intervalic distance between C to D is a Major 2nd.....Yes?

Calculating F# to C#,for example,cannot be done using tht TTSTTTS formula without repeating a letter note,at some point during the 7 note run....You with me?



Calculating F# to C#,for example,cannot be done using tht TTSTTTS formula without repeating a letter note,at some point during the 7 note run....You with me?

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

What's the problem here? Where did I repeat? I teach this for a living, sir.

Best,

Sean
#20
I have that same book F Mann Talks about.It is very basic beginner stuff.While F Mann is right in some of what he says the book does not say F#-C# can not be worked out with out repeats.It just says it is often easier to work out intervals if you sharpen or flatten both notes.The one paragragh that talks about that says nothing about notes that repeat.It looks like he confused that with the lesson on the major scale where it says double sharps-flats be used to stay away from repeats.If he reads his book again he will see that.Those two lessons are two pages apart in my book.The book also says that doubles are rarely used in the real world.I never used them except for doing the problems in that book and never saw them any more.
#21
Quote by Atomic Wedgie
I have that same book F Mann Talks about.It is very basic beginner stuff.While F Mann is right in some of what he says the book does not say F#-C# can not be worked out with out repeats.

okay so i was correct in saying that the book never mentioned this despite what he had said, as i figured