Page 3 of 5
#81
We were talking about simulating manipulating feedback as I read it.
As something extra, sure I can see that but tbh, I've got enough shit going on already. Man's gotta dance, shit'd be going off all the time.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#82
Quote by Cathbard
We were talking about simulating manipulating feedback as I read it.
As something extra, sure I can see that but tbh, I've got enough shit going on already. Man's gotta dance, shit'd be going off all the time.


I did mention simulating feedback.

You do have a point though... who has time to learn all this stuff? Especially when what you know and love is all you really need.


.
#83
Why simulate feedback? Feedback is there whenever your speakers are playing loudly.
#84
Quote by Sethis
Why simulate feedback? Feedback is there whenever your speakers are playing loudly.


Why not?
Some use controlled feedback as part of their sound.
#85
Quote by ibanez_guru
This i dont really understand...... In Australia, i can buy a brand new MFC101 for $999
Even given the AUD is stronger than the USD, we still pay way over the top prices for everything


Canada as well, especially for stuff MADE in Canada!
Washburn MG-44(E)
Ibanez RG421 (Eb)
Art & Lutherie Electric Cutaway
Vox Valvetronix VT40
Vox AC4tv 1x10
Vox Original Wah-Wah Pedal V847-A
MXR '78 Custom Badass Distortion
#86
Quote by Cathbard
I use that method for sustain all the time. I'd be lost without it. And no, a feedback effect just isn't the same. By changing the angle between guitar and speakers you can alter the feedback in real time in a very dynamic manner, a pedal/plugin can't do that.


Well....I'm not so sure.

We'll always need amplifiers, because we need volume, but there's no reason (assuming sufficient quality in the model) that you couldn't simply run a JTM-45 model to a clean, powerful solid state amp/stack to get your feedback? (You could even use FR speakers if the model was robust enough.)

I don't think the question is "Will we no longer need amplifiers" because that's ridiculous on the face, but instead "Will we no longer need Tube amps", and the answer is that Yes, at some point in time modeling will be so close that not even the most discerning ear can hear the difference (although there will ALWAYS be those that claim they can).

But that's not today. Given the Kemper, I'd say it's closer than we might think though...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#87
They are the work of the devil. What are people like me to do when we can't build valve amps? Just play guitar? Or become programmers? **** that noise.


Somebody's trying to keep the buggy whip factory open, huh? Damn cars - they're the work of the devil!
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#88
Quote by Cathbard
They are the work of the devil. What are people like me to do when we can't build valve amps? Just play guitar? Or become programmers? **** that noise.


Somebody's trying to keep the buggy whip factory open, huh? Damn cars - they're the work of the devil!



That's it man. Now we are getting to the nitty gritty.

Not to worry. Your skills will only become more valuable.
#89
Quote by Cathbard
They are the work of the devil. What are people like me to do when we can't build valve amps? Just play guitar? Or become programmers? **** that noise.


Somebody's trying to keep the buggy whip factory open, huh? Damn cars - they're the work of the devil!

You'll be going "cha ching!" that day. I can't remember what my someone I know paid to have a tube radio restored to working condition. It was insane!
Washburn MG-44(E)
Ibanez RG421 (Eb)
Art & Lutherie Electric Cutaway
Vox Valvetronix VT40
Vox AC4tv 1x10
Vox Original Wah-Wah Pedal V847-A
MXR '78 Custom Badass Distortion
#90
Quote by 667
Why not?
Some use controlled feedback as part of their sound.


No I meant you don't need to simulate it. It's there if you turn the speakers up.

Amp sims are pretty realistic nowadays. Give me a kemper and I'll never look back.
Last edited by Sethis at Mar 29, 2013,
#91
Thanks for your comments. I am currently working on a research project into the future of guitar amplification and wanted to get a feel for what guitar players think about new technologies. I think there will alwaye be a place for traditional amps but digital alternatives are taking over.
#92
Quote by Sethis
No I meant you don't need to simulate it. It's there if you turn the speakers up.

Amp sims are pretty realistic nowadays. Give me a kemper and I'll never look back.


The answer is still "why not". You would have to simulate it if you were software only, want feedback at bedroom levels, or where you need tweakable feedback response.

Not needing the real thing is the point.
#93
Even if you don't need it, I want it. Feedback at bedroom volumes? Get off my ****ing lawn.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#94
DSP processors will replace tube amps. preamp, effects, power section, cabinet, mics, room, everything processed in hi-def on external software and bussed over Thunderbolt.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#95
Quote by CECamps
Tone is one thing, and digital modeling technology has been there for years. It's not hard to get a kick-ass tone from digital models.

Feel and responsiveness on the other hand, is a far more complex affair. That's what modeling has not yet been able to master. The technology is there, but the engineering of that technology to replicate the complex dynamics of how the player interacts with the amp--and subsequently how the amp interacts with the player--has not been reached.

There is a cyclical synergy involved when playing a good guitar through a good tube amp and speaker cab. The player ends up playing not only the guitar, but essentially the amp and speakers as well. It is a total system type of thing. It can often be unpredictable, which is why we have so much trouble replicating it with digital algorithms.



No mention of a podhd into a dt series amp? Line 6 has came up with the solution to all the short comings of modelling. Not only does it model it changes the analog tube circuitry to match the style of amp so you get the same saturation touch feel and compression of the type of amp. what ever you choose the amp auto switches its anolog circuits
#96
Quote by 667
You would have to simulate it if you were software only, want feedback at bedroom levels, or where you need tweakable feedback response.


Sure if you're using headphones it won't happen but if you're playing through monitors at a reasonable volume, not really loud, and you stand close to the speakers it will. Actually there is a plugin that simulates feedback but first of all it pretty much sucks and secondly you don't need it anyway.
Last edited by Sethis at Apr 1, 2013,
#97
Quote by Sethis
Sure if you're using headphones it won't happen but if you're playing through monitors at a reasonable volume, not really loud, and you stand close to the speakers it will. Actually there is a plugin that simulates feedback but first of all it pretty much sucks and secondly you don't need it anyway.


You are confusing me. You replied in an earlier post on the point of DSP feedback: "No I meant you don't need to simulate it."

I responded with a couple of examples where you might need it - and you even came up with one yourself..."Sure if you're using headphones".

So in one post you say you don't need to simulate it, and then later on you say you do need to simulate it.

I'm not promoting or detracting. I'm just stating the obvious of what's to come. I don't know what you are trying to argue - besides the fact that your not into it. I'm not into it either - and if you read this thread, you would have realized that. You're counter-points are not only confusing me, they are moot because the tech as you informed is already here. Detracting from it's potential because it sucks now is naive. As was already said, it's in it's infancy and will only will get better. Remember Doom? That first person shooter from way-back? How does that compare to what is available today on the FPS front?
#98
It's simple really. You mentioned the need to simulate feedback in amp sims. I replied that you don't need any cranked tube amp or special feedback software to achieve feedback. It just happens whenever a guitar and a speaker interact. Nothing special here, just physics. The point in amp sims is simulating what real amps can do, without that interaction I mentioned nothing can happen.
Last edited by Sethis at Apr 1, 2013,
#99
Quote by dlowe102
No mention of a podhd into a dt series amp? Line 6 has came up with the solution to all the short comings of modelling. Not only does it model it changes the analog tube circuitry to match the style of amp so you get the same saturation touch feel and compression of the type of amp. what ever you choose the amp auto switches its anolog circuits


Oh yea ....These arnt the amps your looking for move along move along
#100
Quote by dlowe102
No mention of a podhd into a dt series amp? Line 6 has came up with the solution to all the short comings of modelling. Not only does it model it changes the analog tube circuitry to match the style of amp so you get the same saturation touch feel and compression of the type of amp. what ever you choose the amp auto switches its anolog circuits
The same "touch feel"? So it can keep up with an 18W Marshall or a JTM45 for touch sensitivity? That I'd like to see.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Apr 1, 2013,
#102
Do you actually know how touch sensitive and expressive an 18W'er is?


Ignore where you can hear me kick in an overdrive (set as a clean boost) momentarily at the end of the intro and the rest is purely the result of picking strength:

http://cathbard.com/files/sibly.mp3

Show me that sort of expression on the Line6.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Apr 1, 2013,
#103
Quote by Sethis
It's simple really. You mentioned the need to simulate feedback in amp sims. I replied that you don't need any cranked tube amp or special feedback software to achieve feedback. It just happens whenever a guitar and a speaker interact. Nothing special here, just physics. The point in amp sims is simulating what real amps can do, without that interaction I mentioned nothing can happen.


You still contradicted yourself when u said u don't need to simulate feedback, then u go on to say you do if ur wearing headphones.
#104
Quote by Cathbard
Do you actually know how touch sensitive and expressive an 18W'er is?


Ignore where you can hear me kick in an overdrive (set as a clean boost) momentarily at the end of the intro and the rest is purely the result of picking strength:

http://cathbard.com/files/sibly.mp3

Show me that sort of expression on the Line6.


God that is secksy.

Amp modeling is awesome. I've played an Axe FX that had some nice tones tweaked for the monitors it was run through. It had some dynamics and some responsiveness, but not anywhere near what that little bugger can do.

Amp modeling is so close in so many places, but I've yet to see it match the dynamics of even a mediocre tube amp, let alone some of the more touch sensitive amps in the same price range as the kemper and the axefx. Like craig said, that interaction is complicated and unpredictable, unpredictability being one of those things computers still struggle with.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#106
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#108
It's not bad but really, not even close.
Sorry, no cigar.


PS. I have seen those clips before. Like I said, it's ok and better than earlier stuff but they still haven't captured the same level of talkback, far from it.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Apr 2, 2013,
#110
No, that's why I asked you to supply a clip that had the same level of talkback as the clip I posted. I wanted you to back up your claim that they had as good dynamics as perhaps the most expressive tube amp of all time. You didn't succeed.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Apr 2, 2013,
#111
Ok ill give it a shot.....i just have to dig up my recording stuff and hope i remember how to do it and upload.... I work at nights so i should be in bed.
#112
Try to dial it in so when you pick relatively softly it's almost dead clean and only really distorts if you pick harder. That's how I had my 18 W'er set up. If you can pull off 18 W'er dynamics I'll be incredibly impressed.

PS, I'm about to crash myself so I won't see it 'til tomorrow anyway. Go to bed and tackle it tomorrow on a rested brain.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Apr 2, 2013,
#114
Eventually we will probably not even use amps and drum sets, horns and such, but just play these little Steinberger equivalents, sending the signal strait into the hearing center of your brain. If you're working at the bar and need to hear people, you'll just turn your volume down, and it's quieter.

Until then, and likely after, I think tubes are neat. I also like steam engines and a pretty girl wearing a bunad.
"If you're looking for me,
you better check under the sea,
because that's where you'll find me..."
#115
Quote by 667
You still contradicted yourself when u said u don't need to simulate feedback, then u go on to say you do if ur wearing headphones.


Lol I just said if you are wearing headphones there's no chance in hell you can have feedback.
#116
Quote by Sethis
Lol I just said if you are wearing headphones there's no chance in hell you can have feedback.



Oh well. I don't know what you actually meant now.


But the fact is simulated feedback is already here...

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/Daily/News/Fender_Releases_the_Runaway_Feedback_Pedal.aspx

http://www.softube.com/index.php?id=af
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb08/articles/guitartech_0208.htm
Last edited by 667 at Apr 3, 2013,
#117
I've tried the softube plugin, that's the one I was talking about. It's nothing like real controllable feedback. More like a noise tail after some notes you picked. No control of duration or note at all.
Last edited by Sethis at Apr 3, 2013,
#118
Eventually, digital will be MORE responsive than tubes. We will even have digital plectrums - wow!
"If you're looking for me,
you better check under the sea,
because that's where you'll find me..."
#119
Quote by Cathbard
Do you actually know how touch sensitive and expressive an 18W'er is?


Ignore where you can hear me kick in an overdrive (set as a clean boost) momentarily at the end of the intro and the rest is purely the result of picking strength:

http://cathbard.com/files/sibly.mp3

Show me that sort of expression on the Line6.


That is great man, enjoyed that. Awesome tone and great feel. Makes me want one of those.
#120
Quote by dlowe102
OK dt25 with hd500 j45... just touch example.
https://soundcloud.com/angie-lee-hayward-lowe/test01-track-1-mix-14

See that's either distorting or not distorting... It sounds 'on/off' whereas the clip Cathbard posted has all the 'shades of gray' in between. I also suspect you used your volume knob, or even settings on the POD, and not picking dynamics because it sounds very jumpy...
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!