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#7
Just measured my jem build that has a floyd, its right about 1.75'' thick, and the baseplate to the floyd is almost exactly flush with the body, The trouble I think you may run into is the sustain block hitting the back spring cover. I noticed that my gsa60 which is a bit thinner has the spring cover mounted on the surface of the back, not flush. This gives an extra few millimeters of clearance.
Whether it will fit will depend on lots of factors, like which specific trem, how deep the sustain block goes, how the spring cover is mounted on the back, how high you need the saddles to be for proper action, all that. after seeing how my jem works, It could be 1.5 inches thick, but the spring cover would have to be mounted on the surface, not flush with the body in order to accomodate it.
#8
Quote by ohaple
Just measured my jem build that has a floyd, its right about 1.75'' thick, and the baseplate to the floyd is almost exactly flush with the body, The trouble I think you may run into is the sustain block hitting the back spring cover. I noticed that my gsa60 which is a bit thinner has the spring cover mounted on the surface of the back, not flush. This gives an extra few millimeters of clearance.
Whether it will fit will depend on lots of factors, like which specific trem, how deep the sustain block goes, how the spring cover is mounted on the back, how high you need the saddles to be for proper action, all that. after seeing how my jem works, It could be 1.5 inches thick, but the spring cover would have to be mounted on the surface, not flush with the body in order to accomodate it.


Sure its a floyd? I thought all ibanez used were Edge trems, which are different.
#9
Quote by Explorerbuilder
Sure its a floyd? I thought all ibanez used were Edge trems, which are different.

My warbeast has a floyd and it's 1 9/16 thick.
Quote by R45VT
Bastards.
#11
Can you surface mount it but do the cut out behind so it floats? Also, how does one trim the spring block?
#12
The ibanez edge tremelo is a floyd rose tremelo. Floyd rose can refer to the brand, or the type. The one installed in my jem-build (not a real ibanez jem, but one I built) is a Gotoh branded floyd rose. My BC Rich Warlock is a bit thicker, but has licensed floyd rose style. I have 3 floyds in my possession, and they all measure about the same as far as what is required. Some take more horizontal space than others. The depth of the block will determine the fit though. WE would need ot know more about your setup to tell you for sure.
Here is a pic of the JEM build, with the trem. The pics make it look like the saddle screws would hit, but they dont. Also, its hard ot tell, but the trem is non-blocked, level, and flush with the body.



You dont want to trim the sustain block. You want to get the right parts for the job. You can buy replacement ones if you need.
Last edited by ohaple at Mar 29, 2013,
#13
Quote by Explorerbuilder
Floyds do vary a lot though. I had one i was going to use and it would have required a 1/34" body if i wanted to recess it. I had to cut the block.

To be fair it is a floyd rose special. either way a block of wood stops it up just the same.
Quote by R45VT
Bastards.
#14
I would not have to recess my floyd rose because I recess it only a few millimeters and still make it float wouldn't I?
#15
I just sent an email to the guy over at guitarparts online asking if I can get a shorter block when I order mine, so ill have to see what he says
#16
@Ohaple: That's incorrect; Floyd Rose is a particular brand. The 'style' of the trem is referred to as a locking or double-locking trem.
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#17
Quote by Sleaze Disease
@Ohaple: That's incorrect; Floyd Rose is a particular brand. The 'style' of the trem is referred to as a locking or double-locking trem.


Thats correct and incorrect. They own the patent, so its called a floyd rose. There are other types of locking and double locking trems, though they arent popular.
Here is the wiki link in case oyu need to learn more. There is a reason every legit floyd rose says licensed floyd rose tremelo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Rose

The ibanez edge, the gotoh double locking, and the OFR are all floyd rose tremelos.
They are named for their inventor.

Also, you can put a locking nut on any trem, and it becomes a locking system (not double locking though)
Last edited by ohaple at Mar 30, 2013,
#18
Jesus Christ, you're sourcing Wikipedia? Really?

'Floyd Rose' is a brand which makes many products. 'Double-locking' is a bridge design which happens to be one of those products and which also happens to be a designed used by many other brands. Not all double-locking vibratos are Floyds and not all Floyds are double-locking. Not everything that looks like a Floyd is a Floyd. There are many bridges which look like Floyd units and work in the same way as Floyd units but their critical dimensions can be very different.

You never use the term 'Floyd' to refer to a bridge not made or licensed by Floyd Rose. The Ibanez Edge series of bridges are their own thing. They have their own dimensions, they require different routing in most cases and are not to be referred to as 'Floyds'.


OP, you can't 'just' cut out a small section behind the bridge to make it float. You either surface mount it or recess it properly. Trying to install the studs level with the surface but taking out extra wood behind will make it not only incredibly hard to get level but will cause excess stress on the knife edges.

You can buy smaller blocks which will allow a bridge to be recessed in a thinner body like this. You could also use a non-locking design, install it non-recessed and simply set it up to float; this gives you smoother vibrato and both up and down motion, though if you want to do a lot of drastic 'whammy' tricks, this won't work.
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#19
Also, every legitimate bridge that uses this design must be licensed, otherwise it goes agains us patent. That is unless the US patent office is wrong. Thats probably the case. Youre right, and they are wrong. You win.
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=US&NR=4171661&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP
Anything that follows that patent can be called a floyd rose. Its named for the inventor, not the company.

Shaller uses their name on theirs...
http://www.warmoth.com/hardware/bridges/pdf/Schaller_Floyd_Rose_Diagram.pdf
Here is an ecyclopedia article on it. quit being so stubborn
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Floyd-Rose

That said, the second part of your advice is sound and solid.
Last edited by ohaple at Mar 30, 2013,
#20
Quote by DESTROYER5000
I just sent an email to the guy over at guitarparts online asking if I can get a shorter block when I order mine, so ill have to see what he says

I am waiting to see if I can order a smaller block with my dragonfire licensed Floyd rose tremolo
#22
Quote by MrFlibble
Jesus Christ, you're sourcing Wikipedia? Really?

'Floyd Rose' is a brand which makes many products. 'Double-locking' is a bridge design which happens to be one of those products and which also happens to be a designed used by many other brands. Not all double-locking vibratos are Floyds and not all Floyds are double-locking. Not everything that looks like a Floyd is a Floyd. There are many bridges which look like Floyd units and work in the same way as Floyd units but their critical dimensions can be very different.

You never use the term 'Floyd' to refer to a bridge not made or licensed by Floyd Rose. The Ibanez Edge series of bridges are their own thing. They have their own dimensions, they require different routing in most cases and are not to be referred to as 'Floyds'.


OP, you can't 'just' cut out a small section behind the bridge to make it float. You either surface mount it or recess it properly. Trying to install the studs level with the surface but taking out extra wood behind will make it not only incredibly hard to get level but will cause excess stress on the knife edges.

You can buy smaller blocks which will allow a bridge to be recessed in a thinner body like this. You could also use a non-locking design, install it non-recessed and simply set it up to float; this gives you smoother vibrato and both up and down motion, though if you want to do a lot of drastic 'whammy' tricks, this won't work.

Can I recess it only a few millimeters so that it will still float but at a different depth?
#23
No. The bridge plate needs to rest against something when the studs are installed above the top of the guitar.
If you want to pull up then you need to either recess the bridge (use a smaller block) or use a style of bridge that can be safely set up to float without a recess (e.g. Fender 2-stud Strat bridge). You can't 'half recess' a bridge. Doing so is utter murder on the knife edges and studs.

It should also be pointed out that your problem here is the thickness of the body, and in this regard the difference between a recessed bridge and a non-recessed one is only a couple of millimetres; even if you install it non-recessed you will find it is a close fit and you'll probably be best off using a smaller block anyway. You can always take a big file to the block and take it down to whatever size you need to make it fit comfortably with whatever body thickness it is you want; these blocks aren't complicated, it's literally just a sold block of metal with a couple of small holes drilled so the ends of the springs can fit in them. You can afford to be rough with it and hack it up a bit.


ohaple, there's already a huge problem with misinformation being spread around by clueless ****wits. Don't add to that problem.
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#24
Youre right. Obviously Gotoh is wrong. And the patent office. And wiki. And Shaller. And every tutorial regarding these bridges.
Its unheard of for an invention to be named after the inventor... In fact. I wonder why all three bridges I own have floyd rose printed on them, though none of them are actually made or sold by the company. Must be a mistake.
Thanks for setting me straight though.
#25
Because apparently you've not heard of licensing.
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#26
And you dont understand how naming conventions work. If you have a galaxy s series phone, it runs android. That does not make it incorrect to call it an android phone

If you mean the bridge that is outlined in the patent, it can be called a floyd rose. If not, then it would certainly be incorrect to call it such. The word you are looking for is Floyd Rose Original, or Original FLoyd Rose. Those are names that describe the product made by the company more specifically.

I own a headset. Its got simulated dolby digital surround. Calling it a dolby digital headset is not incorrect.

You are the reason other forums make jokes about UG. Rather than having a discussion and keeping an open mind, you go straight for the childish attacks.

An even more direct example. The Maksutov telescope. Invented by a man named Dmitri Maksutov. He patented it. Many companies use the license, and it is called a Maksutov telescope no matter who it is made by.

Its interesting every article I have read about Vai or Satriani talks about their use of the floyd rose. Both use licensed copies (or at least their signature models do.)

How about we agree to disagree and quit derailing this guys thread, give him the help he asked for. If you want the last word, have at it, but I'm not going to keep f'ing with his thread.
Last edited by ohaple at Mar 30, 2013,
#27
Quote by DESTROYER5000
I am waiting to see if I can order a smaller block with my dragonfire licensed Floyd rose tremolo

If you use a Dragonfire trem, don't expect to set it to float. That thing will not hold it's tuning well enough to float. I guarantee, within a month, you will have it blocked.

Get something that can float reliably, or just save yourself the hassle and go with a dive-only trem or hardtail.
#28
Quote by W4RP1G
If you use a Dragonfire trem, don't expect to set it to float. That thing will not hold it's tuning well enough to float. I guarantee, within a month, you will have it blocked.

Get something that can float reliably, or just save yourself the hassle and go with a dive-only trem or hardtail.

you've treid just about every shoddy product to ever exist haven't you? You're always warning somebody about a low quality something or another. Thanks for either having exceptionally bad luck, or experimenting with crappy stuff.
Quote by R45VT
Bastards.
#29
Quote by Viban
you've treid just about every shoddy product to ever exist haven't you? You're always warning somebody about a low quality something or another. Thanks for either having exceptionally bad luck, or experimenting with crappy stuff.

Actually, I happen to have real life experience with that particular trem.

I can't sit here and not warn someone about a product that I know to be shit just because you might get a little butthurt.

edit: perhaps I misunderstood your post? I took it as hostility toward me, but if it was a genuine inquiry, then I apologize.

I have used a number of cheap products from Dragonfire guitars. I usually will advise against using their products because everything I've purchased from them was pretty much on par with the stock components of cheap import guitars(but I am still a bit curious about their onboard EQs). I was new to building(like the TS), so I went with whatever I thought would work for the lowest price. It wasn't bad luck, just ignorance.
Last edited by W4RP1G at Mar 30, 2013,
#30
I don't really want this thread to degenerate any further than it already has but I'm curious about a couple of things MrFlibble has mentioned. It's also pertinent to the OP's problem.
Quote by MrFlibble
...you can't 'just' cut out a small section behind the bridge to make it float. You either surface mount it or recess it properly. Trying to install the studs level with the surface but taking out extra wood behind will make it not only incredibly hard to get level but will cause excess stress on the knife edges.
While I accept that surface mounting might make it slightly harder to level the trem - although most people are remarkably good at 'eyeballing' parallel and perpendicular - I don't see how it would cause excess stress on the knife edges. As ever, I felt it necessary to resort to pictures to try and help explain.



Fig. 1 shows a recessed Floyd style bridge. I've added red lines to show where the strings and springs attach and highlighted the pivot stud. As you can see, the entire thing floats; it pivots on the studs ad is kept level by balancing the force of the strings and springs. We all know this is how these bridges work and why they can be a PITA to set up when you're new to them.

In Fig. 2 I have done a quick and dirty edit to show how I expect it would look if the pivot studs were mounted in the top of the body. All the other routs are still the same - although not as deep - the bridge still floats and has the same contact with the studs, held there by the strings and springs which haven't changed and so should still be exerting the same force.

So I'm not seeing where the "excess stress" is coming from.

Quote by MrFlibble
The bridge plate needs to rest against something when the studs are installed above the top of the guitar. ... You can't 'half recess' a bridge. Doing so is utter murder on the knife edges and studs.
Similarly, given that the bridge plate doesn't rest against something when the studs are recessed, why does it have to be when they're not? I suspect I'm either missing something or misunderstanding how "surface mounting" a floating trem would work. I've worked in engineering long enough to know that theory doesn't always match practice so I'm happy to hear others' experiences but I'm not seeing any mechanical difference that would cause a problem. Perhaps you're talking about trying to mount it like a traditional strat-style trem; sat flush against the body?

As a general aside; if we stand around slinging mud then pretty soon we'll all end up looking like dirt. There are a number of members that genreally give very good advice - W4RP1G and MrFlibble being two of them - unfortunately giving advice often means warning people against things, which means you come across as negative.
#31
Quote by von Layzonfon
There are a number of members that genreally give very good advice - W4RP1G and MrFlibble being two of them - unfortunately giving advice often means warning people against things, which means you come across as negative.

I like to believe that most of the experienced members here would back me in not supporting the use of a $35 floating Floyd. I have actual experience with it, but I don't think that is even necessary in this situation.
#32
Quote by von Layzonfon
I don't really want this thread to degenerate any further than it already has but I'm curious about a couple of things MrFlibble has mentioned. It's also pertinent to the OP's problem.
While I accept that surface mounting might make it slightly harder to level the trem - although most people are remarkably good at 'eyeballing' parallel and perpendicular - I don't see how it would cause excess stress on the knife edges. As ever, I felt it necessary to resort to pictures to try and help explain.



Fig. 1 shows a recessed Floyd style bridge. I've added red lines to show where the strings and springs attach and highlighted the pivot stud. As you can see, the entire thing floats; it pivots on the studs ad is kept level by balancing the force of the strings and springs. We all know this is how these bridges work and why they can be a PITA to set up when you're new to them.

In Fig. 2 I have done a quick and dirty edit to show how I expect it would look if the pivot studs were mounted in the top of the body. All the other routs are still the same - although not as deep - the bridge still floats and has the same contact with the studs, held there by the strings and springs which haven't changed and so should still be exerting the same force.

So I'm not seeing where the "excess stress" is coming from.

Similarly, given that the bridge plate doesn't rest against something when the studs are recessed, why does it have to be when they're not? I suspect I'm either missing something or misunderstanding how "surface mounting" a floating trem would work. I've worked in engineering long enough to know that theory doesn't always match practice so I'm happy to hear others' experiences but I'm not seeing any mechanical difference that would cause a problem. Perhaps you're talking about trying to mount it like a traditional strat-style trem; sat flush against the body?

As a general aside; if we stand around slinging mud then pretty soon we'll all end up looking like dirt. There are a number of members that genreally give very good advice - W4RP1G and MrFlibble being two of them - unfortunately giving advice often means warning people against things, which means you come across as negative.

What I want to do is something in between fig.1 and fig.2 but apparently that's not allowed?
#35
Quote by DESTROYER5000
I just an email back from ken over at TNT guitars and he said they only Carry standard block sizes

I'm telling you, if you want to actually use your floyd, you'll look into something better. At least a Floyd Rose Special.
#36
Quote by W4RP1G
I'm telling you, if you want to actually use your floyd, you'll look into something better. At least a Floyd Rose Special.

Is there any other companys that make a floating trem for the same price or close to the same price?
#37
There are two key points here, I think.

1. In general, you get what you pay for. A cheap trem is never going to be as reliable as an expensive one. The one I put in my last build cost me £18 (about $27) and after a bit of attention I got it quite smooth and if I make sure I give it a quick upward tug after use then it pretty much stays in tune. This doesn't bother me as I'm not a heavy user - and it may be sufficient for you - but I know it's not a patch on the units in either of my Ibanez.

2. Whatever unit you get is probably going to be tight for space. While you might possibly be able to partially recess it, doing this will then very likely mean you have to add some neck angle to compensate for the higher bridge. You could cap the back, as you say, but if you've got a hacksaw and a drill then it seems to me that by far the easiest option would be to take 1/4" off the block yourself.
#38
Quote by von Layzonfon
There are two key points here, I think.

1. In general, you get what you pay for. A cheap trem is never going to be as reliable as an expensive one. The one I put in my last build cost me £18 (about $27) and after a bit of attention I got it quite smooth and if I make sure I give it a quick upward tug after use then it pretty much stays in tune. This doesn't bother me as I'm not a heavy user - and it may be sufficient for you - but I know it's not a patch on the units in either of my Ibanez.

2. Whatever unit you get is probably going to be tight for space. While you might possibly be able to partially recess it, doing this will then very likely mean you have to add some neck angle to compensate for the higher bridge. You could cap the back, as you say, but if you've got a hacksaw and a drill then it seems to me that by far the easiest option would be to take 1/4" off the block yourself.

So I found a piece of 1/4 mahogany that I will cap the back with before I paint it
P.s I talked to my uncle and he said cap the back, so ill probably do that and then recess it
#39
That sounds like a good way to go about things. You can use a decent quality unit then and install it properly. It is never worth trying to 'make-do' with some half-arsed, hacked-together version of what you actually want.

In regards to the monster of a post above, what it boils down to is the angle the bridge sits at when non-recessed/decked/surface mounted means that to get it level without support from the back (i.e. with a 'half recess'), you need the strings to be pulling it forward more than the springs in the back are pulling it. This means that every time the bridge moves the knife edges are getting more pressure on one side than the other, wearing them unevenly.
When it is installed non-recessed the back of the body supports the bridge and balancing the tension becomes much easier since the bridge naturally sits at the correct angle. When it is installed completely recessed it is nice and flat and balancing the strings and springs to get it level is both easy and leaves the bridge properly parallel, with the knife edges taking the strain evenly.

I am currently both tired and suffering a chocolate hangover so bear with me if that wasn't the clearest explanation, but I do not have MS Paint to hand.
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