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#1
There was a special on the History Channel a while back that compared the childhood experiences of both Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin. Did you know that Hitler and Stalin were both beaten by their fathers when they were children? In fact, both of them ended up in the hospital in a coma, after being beaten up badly by their father. Both Hitler's and Stalin's mothers were also beaten by their fathers. Both Hitler and Stalin hated their fathers with a passion, as you can imagine. Both were incredibly heartbroken when their mothers died fairly early in their lives. They both had incredibly horrible childhoods. I "almost" felt sorry for them when I learned about this. Notice I put "almost" in quotes, because I believe that no matter how hard your childhood was, that just does NOT justify killing millions of people, literally, in some kind of twisted revenge against the world. I was lucky that I had loving parents, and there is no way I can ever know exactly what it is like to be abused by one's parents. But I just cannot condone them for what they did, no matter how hard their childhood was. I think most people on this forum would feel the same.

However, having said all of that, if I didn't have loving parents, if I had a horrible abusive father like Hitler and Stalin had, would I have come out the same as them? I don't know....

Back then, when Stalin and Hitler were children growing up, I don't think that they had access to the kind of social services that we have today--child protective services and similar services to protect against the abuse of children. But I wonder if those services were available back then, maybe it could have prevented those two from turning into the monsters that they became as adults. Their fathers were at least partly responsible for how they turned out.

What do you think about this?
#2
tl;dr;

no.
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#4
I like how you imply getting beat by your father leads to GENOCIDE
Last edited by Weaponized at Apr 12, 2013,
#5
Quote by mattmakaha
Notice I put "almost" in quotes, because I believe that no matter how hard your childhood was, that just does NOT justify killing millions of people

You're so smart. You should write books or something.
#6
It's a double standard. We look at these men like villains, but then with the advent of social services and developmental psychology, we readily admit that ill treatment of children can lead to negative consequences.

I often wonder what I'd be like if I had to deal with the kinds of things someone like Charles Manson dealt with growing up. Mother being a hooker, having to mug people as a teenager just to eat, things like that.

I don't necessarily feel sorry for them, as I feel that in their positions of power, their actions weren't so much passionate as they were calculated. They had plenty of choices to make, and they made all these choices in succession leading up to genocide.

So I understand how in their circumstances they'd end up so damaged and "bad", but since I believe that humans do have an innate free will absent of environment, I believe they did have the choice to NOT ruin millions of lives.

tl;dr: Anyone would be ****ed up growing up like they did, but they made their beds to lay in as adults. Let 'em burn.
#9
Quote by ouijaspirit
meh just wait a thousand years no one will care about Hitler or Stalin.


Just ask Genghis Khan, Copernicus, and the Catholics of the middle ages (they all killed a lot of people). Totally forgotten about in history.
#10
There's millions of children that are abused by their parents in the world, I don't see a million Hitlers killing everybody.

So no.
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#11
Nope
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#12
Quote by Jostry
There's millions of children that are abused by their parents in the world, I don't see a million Hitlers killing everybody.

So no.

how many of them have the power hitler and stalin did?
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#13
They were people like you and I.



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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Apr 2, 2013,
#14
Do I feel bad that they were abused as children? Yeah.
Does it change the fact that they were terrible terrible men? Nope.
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#15
Hitler's mum died when he was like 18, living abroard and generally failing at life. How is that early?
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#16
Quote by Good Ol' Ramos
Just ask Genghis Khan, Copernicus, and the Catholics of the middle ages (they all killed a lot of people). Totally forgotten about in history.


I thought Copernicus was a mathematician and astronomer? Who did he kill?
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#19
Quote by Good Ol' Ramos
It's a double standard. We look at these men like villains, but then with the advent of social services and developmental psychology, we readily admit that ill treatment of children can lead to negative consequences.

.


Yes, that's part of the point I was getting at too.

There was a news story the other night on the BBC World Service, which talked about Stalin's home country of Georgia. And that even today, many Georgians still view Stalin as a hero.
#20
Quote by Good Ol' Ramos
It's a double standard. We look at these men like villains, but then with the advent of social services and developmental psychology, we readily admit that ill treatment of children can lead to negative consequences.

I often wonder what I'd be like if I had to deal with the kinds of things someone like Charles Manson dealt with growing up. Mother being a hooker, having to mug people as a teenager just to eat, things like that.

I don't necessarily feel sorry for them, as I feel that in their positions of power, their actions weren't so much passionate as they were calculated. They had plenty of choices to make, and they made all these choices in succession leading up to genocide.

So I understand how in their circumstances they'd end up so damaged and "bad", but since I believe that humans do have an innate free will absent of environment I believe they did have the choice to NOT ruin millions of lives.

tl;dr: Anyone would be ****ed up growing up like they did, but they made their beds to lay in as adults. Let 'em burn.


No, I don't see how that's possible.

I guess it's a lot to digest but the holocaust and other such atrocities are about as preventable as natural disasters like hurricane Katrina. They're inevitable and they will always occur from time to time.
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#21
Quote by Jostry
I thought Copernicus was a mathematician and astronomer? Who did he kill?


hahahaha totally meant Caligula. He was a Roman leader, killed lots of people as he expanded the empire.

Been reading too many math/philosophy books lately lol.
#22
Quote by Jostry
There's millions of children that are abused by their parents in the world, I don't see a million Hitlers killing everybody.

So no.


Yes of course.
Some just become alcoholics or continues the cylce of violence and beat their own children. But they have no positions of power. What if they came into power like Hitler and Stalin, maybe some of them would abuse their power too? It's possible.
#23
Just because someone was raised with evil doesn't give them any kind of permission to project that onto others. I wasn't exactly brought up in the best environment or with the best parents and I think I'm perfectly good morally.

It isn't an excuse, is my point.
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#24
Quote by mattmakaha
Did you know that Hitler and Stalin were both beaten by their fathers when they were children? In fact, both of them ended up in the hospital in a coma, after being beaten up badly by their father. Both Hitler's and Stalin's mothers were also beaten by their fathers. Both Hitler and Stalin hated their fathers with a passion, as you can imagine.
Actually, Stalin's mother died when he was well into his 50's (she was 79), which is really good for a woman born in 19th Century Georgia. Stalin was close with his mother, but the connection was no where near that of Hitler and his mother. Many historians believe that it was the death of Stalin's first wife that set him off. At her funeral, he said "This creature softened my heart of stone. She died and with her died my last warm feelings for humanity." - Knopf, 2007.

There are MANY alternative reasons to why Hitler and Stalin became who they were, but they are in no way an exception to the rule when it comes to their childhood.
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#25
Quote by Good Ol' Ramos

I often wonder what I'd be like if I had to deal with the kinds of things someone like Charles Manson dealt with growing up. Mother being a hooker, having to mug people as a teenager just to eat, things like that.

Charles Manson spent like 3/4 of his life in prison/juvenile detention before he made the Family. I don't think he went through too much personal strain in his early years. When he was like 30 was when he started going "crazy."
#26
Quote by AeroRocker
Do I feel bad that they were abused as children? Yeah.
Does it change the fact that they were terrible terrible men? Nope.


This.

OP is stupid. Feeling sorry for their childhood is not at all related to whether or not we think their adult behavior is justified by said childhood.
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#27
You're a product of your environment, yeah I can see how it must have made them a bit crazy, TS you seem ok for an abused guy so that says something I guess too
#28
Quote by Skullivan
Charles Manson spent like 3/4 of his life in prison/juvenile detention before he made the Family. I don't think he went through too much personal strain in his early years. When he was like 30 was when he started going "crazy."


He was also given up for adoption, ran away from his home back to his mother, only for her to return him back to said home.....

Sounds like a bit of personal strain there.
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#29
Every now and then I think there might have been redeeming qualities to them (as in if there was in afterlife or something and they changed I think they could be forgiven) but the more I learn about them the more I am just disgusted and horrified. Especially with Stalin.

Edit: To clarify, I was always disgusted and horrified with them, but I mean learning about their personalities and methods most aren't as aware of has only added to it.
Last edited by slipknot5678 at Apr 2, 2013,
#30
It's hard to feel bad for such horrible men. I mean, I know they had horrible childhoods, and that sucks, but they should have went to counseling or something. Killing millions won't make you feel better about your ***hole father. Or maybe it does...?
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#31
Quote by Skwisgaar1996
It's hard to feel bad for such horrible men. I mean, I know they had horrible childhoods, and that sucks, but they should have went to counseling or something.


As I mentioned, I don't think such social services existed back then, the way it does now in modern times. Today we are very aware of child abuse, and have child protective services to intervene. Heck, in Hawaii, we now have adult protective services, to protect our elderly and handicapped. Back then, I don't think there was such a thing....
Last edited by mattmakaha at Apr 2, 2013,
#32
It should be a statement for those who suffer from childhood abuse. They went from being abused children, to the most powerful men of their generation.
#33
Quote by Jihad Jesus
It should be a statement for those who suffer from childhood abuse. They went from being abused children, to the most powerful men of their generation.


That statement helps me elude to a point I originally thought about this. What kind of ****ed up society and culture doesn't snuff out troubled people from powerful positions? It still happens. How do we, as a race, not have more control over who we allow to earn power?
#34
A lot of people have had terrible childhoods. Only two of them turned out to be Hitler and Stalin. They pretty much dicked their way out of the sympathy card.

I also tend to withhold sympathy for people who slaughtered the majority of my ancestors.
Last edited by StreetLight3989 at Apr 2, 2013,
#35
I feel sorry for Hitler. His childhood dog was ripped away from him and then spent years in madness painting German Shepherds and killing Jews.
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Last edited by sebastian_96 at Apr 2, 2013,
#36
Quote by StreetLight3989
I also tend to withhold sympathy for people who slaughtered the majority of my ancestors.


Elitist ****.

edit: C U N T
#37
Additional Point: In Vienna, during the time Hitler had moved there, there was a lot of resentment against jews among the local population. This probably influenced him too.
But in the end, what we need to realize is that we need to forgive such people as they didn't know what they were doing. They were just born out of the system and didnt have the reasoning to think above all the pain and brave all the storm that they faced.
#38
Quote by Good Ol' Ramos
That statement helps me elude to a point I originally thought about this. What kind of ****ed up society and culture doesn't snuff out troubled people from powerful positions? It still happens. How do we, as a race, not have more control over who we allow to earn power?

And how exactly would you determine they were troubled, as opposed to "had a bad past and reformed their character"? There's plenty of people in history who had troubled childhoods and have made good leaders.
#39
Quote by Good Ol' Ramos
Elitist ****.

edit: C U N T

What can I say?

Karma works in strange ways. I guess it was reversed in Hitler's case.
#40
I don't think that it is physically or emotionally possible for me to feel sorry for hitler or stalin. Even if I tried I wouldn't be able to do it.
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