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#41
Quote by StewieSwan
Let's be real here, there should be no age limit.


Lets just make it 99% of The Pit.

Post Birth Abortions though?
Sounds kind of fucked up.
#42
i find humane termination the only option for that kind of accident
i don't know why i feel so dry
#43
Should apply to animals too

or does that cross the line
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#44
Quote by mystical_1
Should apply to animals too

or does that cross the line


Animals get treated way better than humans when it comes to stuff like this.

"This animal is in a great deal of pain and will die soon, better put it out of it's misery"

"This person is in a great deal of pain and will die soon, and has expressed the wish to end their life. But we can't have that now, can we?"
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#45
Quote by Weaponized
I think it's like a regular abortion, but the baby ends up outside and not dead. So like, it's still premature and has no chance of making it, the real choice is weather to terminate it there or try to keep it alive with science n stuff.

The first thing they'd do with a baby like that is put it on life support, right? Keeping it ALIVE with science, and THEN they ask the parents. So the parents are making that decision about a live baby by that point. It's like involuntary euthanasia

I don't know, it makes sense to do, to end the childs life if they're ****ed. I agree with that (I originally thought they were talking about killing perfectly healthy just born babies ). No one wants to grow up with some horrible disease or disorder, but that's a debate for another thread.
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Last edited by naedauuf at Apr 4, 2013,
#46


Sombody call??
Quote by lambofgod127
btw im in hs and im almost 18 so if u do think she was flirting with me dont say that its wrong im almost a grown man.




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#47
If it can't talk yet it's abortable.
Quote by EpiExplorer
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#48
Yes, I support post natal abortion in cases where it is decided that the infant will never achieve a reasonable quality of living (as defined by physiological well-being)

However, it should have nothing to do with the mother's choice. Either she turns over custody to the state, or she agrees to raise the infant. It is a choice of medical ethics after the baby has been born, the mother does not own the child and therefore is not relevant to the choice at hand.
#49
If the abortion occurs early enough in the pregnancy (i.e. within first 3 months) then fine, but after that it becomes a lot more sketchy, to be honest I don't think it's wrong to have an abortion in the first three month period at all but this is just messed up :/
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#50
It worries me that the woman doesn't know what is currently done in the situation of a baby being born alive as a result of a botched abortion.
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#51
If it's the result of a botched abortion then of course you should have the option of killing it. It'd be fucking sadistic to keep it alive for the few days it'd likely survive.

The more interesting question is whether you should have the option if the baby is born with a serious defect that you weren't aware of before the birth.
#52
If a doctor botches a single abortion, they should lose their medical license or whatever and never be able to preform another one.. I'm pro-choice, but when it comes to decisions I honestly don't think us males should have a legal say in any of this.
#53
Quote by Wormholes
If a doctor botches a single abortion, they should lose their medical license or whatever and never be able to preform another one.. I'm pro-choice, but when it comes to decisions I honestly don't think us males should have a legal say in any of this.


Yep, having a dick disqualifies one from being able to reason about medical ethics.
#54
it's not that we can't have an opinion on it. But when it comes to voting to make something related to abortion a law it has nothing to do with men, and never will if/until men can conceive. If there were ever some kind of debate of some weird scrotum/penis procedure at birth I wouldn't think females would be able to have a legal say in the matter(excluding transgender obviously).
#55
Quote by willT08
If it's the result of a botched abortion then of course you should have the option of killing it. It'd be fucking sadistic to keep it alive for the few days it'd likely survive.

The more interesting question is whether you should have the option if the baby is born with a serious defect that you weren't aware of before the birth.

I personally don't think that there are any conditions that can't be detected during screening that would justify that course of action. In which case I do think it would be wrong, as in choosing to carry the pregnancy to full term and give birth you are accepting the child as it is. Every mother knows there will be some kind of risk that the child does not turn out 100% healthy, but the only way to avoid that risk completely is to not give birth in the first place.

Quote by Wormholes
it's not that we can't have an opinion on it. But when it comes to voting to make something related to abortion a law it has nothing to do with men, and never will if/until men can conceive. If there were ever some kind of debate of some weird scrotum/penis procedure at birth I wouldn't think females would be able to have a legal say in the matter(excluding transgender obviously).

I think they call that circumcision :P
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

Last edited by OddOneOut at Apr 4, 2013,
#56
the problem presented here is one of medical ethics, and has nothing at all to do with the mothers.

Once the baby has left her body she should lose all say, as she has vetoed her own parental rights by having an abortion, if not legally then morally.

The baby that survives the abortion should be in temporary loco parentis, where it is decided by medically qualified individuals whether it would be ethical to preserve the life of the baby or to terminate it.
#57
Quote by OddOneOut


I think they call that circumcision :P


I know but that applies to women too and It's too early to think of some new dick at birth procedure.
#58
Quote by Wormholes
I know but that applies to women too and It's too early to think of some new dick at birth procedure.

Personally the only way I'd say that circumcision applies to women is that a circumcised penis is more likely to irritate the vagina walls during sex. Other than that, it affects women in no way whatsoever. I think it should be a completely personal decision and that parents do not have the right to decide to have their son circumcised for non medical reasons. But that's a whole other can of worms (apparently) and not one for this thread :P

Quote by TooktheAtrain
Once the baby has left her body she should lose all say, as she has vetoed her own parental rights by having an abortion, if not legally then morally.

The baby that survives the abortion should be in temporary loco parentis, where it is decided by medically qualified individuals whether it would be ethical to preserve the life of the baby or to terminate it.

This accurately sums up my opinion on the topic at hand.
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

Last edited by OddOneOut at Apr 4, 2013,
#59
Quote by OddOneOut
Personally the only way I'd say that circumcision applies to women is that a circumcised penis is more likely to irritate the vagina walls during sex. Other than that, it affects women in no way whatsoever. I think it should be a completely personal decision and that parents do not have the right to decide to have their son circumcised for non medical reasons. But that's a whole other can of worms (apparently) and not one for this thread :P


This accurately sums up my opinion on the topic at hand.



I was talking about circumcision of the labia Though I don't think that's legal at birth. I don't know. Again too early for this shit.
#60
Quote by Wormholes
I was talking about circumcision of the labia Though I don't think that's legal at birth. I don't know. Again too early for this shit.

Female circumcision (ie. Female genital mutilation) is illegal in the UK (and for any british female citizen to be subjected to it anywhere in the world). Hence it never even crossed my mind as circumcision generally refers to male circumcision. Apparently though it's not illegal in the US, which is ridiculous even though it is culturally unacceptable. It's a barbaric and extremely damaging practice as it compromises the health of the vagina and removes almost all feeling of sexual pleasure.
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

#63
Quote by deadsmileyface
doesnt matter, post-birth, pre-birth. they're both fine.


I agree, I support post-birth abortion to the age of 21 or so...
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#64
Quote by catempire



It's stupid to say you're against abortion if you are only opposed to it in some circumstances (as your post suggests).


No I'm against it in all circumstances.

However, I do agree that having access to safe abortions is necessary in a society, because otherwise women will just get unsafe abortions.
A necessary evil in my opinion.
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#65
ITT: infanticide

Quote by Weaponized
People will still have abortions even if they are illegal. If you're scared of "botched" abortions, then proper medical facilities provided by an environment that allows women to make that choice should be your goal man. Here is a read about what it was like before:
Back-Alley Abortions
The prohibition of legal abortion from the 1880s until 1973 came under the same anti-obscenity or Comstock laws that prohibited the dissemination of birth control information and services.

Criminalization of abortion did not reduce the numbers of women who sought abortions. In the years before Roe v. Wade, the estimates of illegal abortions ranged as high as 1.2 million per year.1 Although accurate records could not be kept, it is known that between the 1880s and 1973, many thousands of women were harmed as a result of illegal abortion.

Many women died or suffered serious medical problems after attempting to self-induce their abortions or going to untrained practitioners who performed abortions with primitive methods or in unsanitary conditions. During this time, hospital emergency room staff treated thousands of women who either died or were suffering terrible effects of abortions provided without adequate skill and care.

Some women were able to obtain relatively safer, although still illegal, abortions from private doctors. This practice remained prevalent for the first half of the twentieth century. The rate of reported abortions then began to decline, partly because doctors faced increased scrutiny from their peers and hospital administrators concerned about the legality of their operations.

Of course in a perfect world, abortions would be banned cause no one would need/want them. Being against it is really just refusing to understand the situation and choosing beliefs over the health of the population.


People will still rape even if it's illegal.
People will still murder even if it's illegal.
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#66
Quote by AeroRocker
No I'm against it in all circumstances.

However, I do agree that having access to safe abortions is necessary in a society, because otherwise women will just get unsafe abortions.
A necessary evil in my opinion.

I never understood this argument. So what? It would still be illegal and if a woman got it, she's a criminal. Why should we make it legal just because some women would do it anyway if it were to be illegal? By that logic, we should legalize murder, because murderers are still going to kill people. We should legalize rape, because rapists are going to rape anyway.
#68
Quote by Wormholes
If a doctor botches a single abortion, they should lose their medical license or whatever and never be able to preform another one.

And why is that? There are things that doctors cannot control. People always assume the doctor fucked up, when the fact is that's not always how it works.

This is why there are medical boards, to determine if the doctor did everything in his power and is still competent/acted ethically in a medical sense. Medical boards determine whether you lose your license, btw, which is why I brought that up. But if every person who thought the doctor fucked up could simply take the doctor to court and get him/her to lose their license, that'd be bullshit.

I'm pro-choice, but when it comes to decisions I honestly don't think us males should have a legal say in any of this.

And why not?


Although, as TooktheAtrain said, it's a medical ethics question. So, whether having a penis qualifies you or not is irrelevant.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 4, 2013,
#69
Quote by bradulator
People will still rape even if it's illegal.
People will still murder even if it's illegal.
you cannot be this ******ed
#71
Quote by Weaponized
you cannot be this ******ed

Good point, Tiller.
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#72
Quote by bradulator
Good point, Tiller.

ok well, rape and murder both hurt someone else against their will. That's bad.
However we still murder in war and in self defense cause sometime's it's "necessary" (rape is always bad tho)

Do you get it now or
#73
Quote by Weaponized
you cannot be this ******ed

The net effect of making rape illegal is not that there are ZERO rapes, it's that 1) there are less rapes and 2) rapists are punished for their actions. 100% crime prevention is a good thing to strive for, but it's highly impractical. (That doesn't mean we stop trying to constantly reduce crime to almost zero, though.) People still commit rape, even though it's illegal in pretty much every country across the globe. However, with anti-rape laws, we can exact justice (note that justice =/= vengeance) upon rapists.

Of course, we could substitute rape/rapists for any other crime/criminal, and my argument still applies.

Quote by Weaponized
ok well, rape and murder both hurt someone else against their will. That's bad.
However we still murder in war and in self defense cause sometime's it's "necessary" (rape is always bad tho)

Do you get it now or

Modern laws don't make it illegal to kill in warfare. Humanity has not moved beyond warfare, as sad as that is.
Also, self-defense is not defined as murder; because, rather than acting out of malicious intent, someone defending their person/property/family is acting to protect their person/property/family. Intent is important when it comes to determining whether it was a crime.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 4, 2013,
#74
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
The net effect of making rape illegal is not that there are ZERO rapes, it's that 1) there are less rapes and 2) rapists are punished for their actions. 100% crime prevention is a good thing to strive for, but it's highly impractical. (That doesn't mean we stop trying to constantly reduce crime to almost zero crime, though.) People still commit rape, even though it's illegal in pretty much every country across the globe. However, with anti-rape laws, we can exact justice (note that justice =/= vengeance) upon rapists.

Of course, we could substitute rape/rapists for any other crime/criminal, and my argument still applies.
if you think ABORTION IS COMPARABLE TO RAPE then just fuck right off, I'm not having it.
#75
Quote by Weaponized
if you think ABORTION IS COMPARABLE TO RAPE then just fuck right off, I'm not having it.

I don't think it is. However, you contested Brad's point on how making rape illegal does not mean people will not rape. I'm discussing the net effect of rape laws right now, not abortion.

The only way that rape is related to abortion is that many people feel that mothers who are raped should have every right to abortions. I'm rather neutral on that point myself.


Edit:
Also, as others have already pointed out, once the child is born (whether it is born through the process of a botched abortion or through more natural means), the mother loses the right to determine if the child should be here. It's already here. If a botched abortion causes the child to have severe injuries and defects, then it becomes a question of medical ethics. I think we all can agree that it's best left up to medical professionals to determine questions of medical ethics.

Killing a child out of hand after birth is murder. That's why mothers who kill their babies are charged in court, because they maliciously intended to end their child's life (or, more rarely, accidentally caused the death of their child; which is a lower degree crime than murder).
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 4, 2013,
#76
Quote by Weaponized
if you think ABORTION IS COMPARABLE TO RAPE then just fuck right off, I'm not having it.

Not rape, murder. If you don't think it is then your ****ed in the head.
#77
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I don't think it is. However, you contested Brad's point on how making rape illegal does not mean people will not rape.
No I didn't you absolute moron. Jesus Christ. JESUS CHRIST. I KNOW PEOPLE STILL BREAK LAWS. THAT WAS NOT THE POINT OF MY POST AS I NEVER HUFFED PAINT AS A KID.
Quote by macashmack
Not rape, murder. If you don't think it is then your ****ed in the head.
Certainly comparable but equivalent hell no. If you think so, your ****ed in the head.
Last edited by Weaponized at Apr 4, 2013,
#78
Quote by Weaponized
ok well, rape and murder both hurt someone else against their will.



However we still murder in war and in self defense cause sometime's it's "necessary" (rape is always bad tho)

Do you get it now or

Self defense ain't murder.
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#79
Quote by macashmack
I never understood this argument. So what? It would still be illegal and if a woman got it, she's a criminal. Why should we make it legal just because some women would do it anyway if it were to be illegal? By that logic, we should legalize murder, because murderers are still going to kill people. We should legalize rape, because rapists are going to rape anyway.

So it's ok for women to end up dead because they don't want to have a baby?
A woman could become pregnant by accident (birth control failure) and have no desire to have a child nor does she have the means to support a child. She would receive less money from her employer due to maternity pay and may be unable to work as normal if her job is physically demanding (eg. shop worker).
The woman should be forced to carry the child to term, endure 9 months of pregnancy, swollen feet, potential sciatica, joint problems, morning sickness and potentially preventing her from bearing children in the future due to complications in labour, in order to give birth to this unwanted baby. The baby is born unwanted and put into the foster or adoption system which is already over crowded with older children who are in need of homes. All because she cannot get a safe abortion (and an illegal one would carry a great risk of killing her)?

Yeah. That sounds like a great idea.

Not all pregnancies are wanted, and despite attempts to prevent pregnancy accidents do happen. Birth control and abortions enable women to pursue careers and have children when they are ready and able to support them, not because a condom broke and they have no other choice.
Quote by Renka
OddOneOut is an Essex S&M mistress and not a pirate or a computer program.

#80
Quote by Weaponized
No I didn't you absolute moron. Jesus Christ. JESUS CHRIST. I KNOW PEOPLE STILL BREAK LAWS. THAT WAS NOT THE POINT OF MY POST AS I NEVER HUFFED PAINT AS A KID

Why are you taking this so personally?...

Calm the fuck down, man.