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roaraudio
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Join date: Dec 2012
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#1
Anyone had a look at the new pro tools coming out (version 11).
Looks pretty sick as it has multiple metering forms (that someone has told me alot of other daws already have) and a nicer UI and "offline bounce".
Its also sick that yu can now use more than 4gb of ram.

Pretty psyched to use it when it comes out.
chatterbox272
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#2
So it's available as 64 bit, has RMS and Peak metering, and offline bouncing. Reaper's had all that for ages, sounds like they're playing a little bit of catch up.
lockwolf
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#3
Sadly, a lot of the features are HD only like different forms of metering. One of the biggest hang ups I see with PT11 is the lack of RTAS support. I understand why but a LARGE LARGE SUPER HUGE LARGE amount of plugins haven't made the jump to AAX yet.

I'm going to keep it in mind but until I see an RTAS to AAX converter hits the market, I'm gonna pass.
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roaraudio
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#4
Yer i dig lockwolf. I saw an interview with one of the programmers/spokesman.. of avid. and he said he was Pushing developers to release aax versions (and making the upgrade free). So that better happen lol
DisarmGoliath
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#5
I think the biggest positives are the new metering (former uni lecturer posted on Facebook that the metering shows gain reduction for stuff as well, when comp'd?), but especially the offine bounce feature. While some may claim that offline bounce in other DAW's always sounds different to the main output (that's what another lecturer said, I'm not so sure it isn't just placebo effect but all DAW's do use different bounce algorithms which do vary in their quality in different ways, albeit very slightly), I think that it is something lots of Pro Tools users have wanted for ages even if it is just to bounce a quick test mix to a CD to go and check translation on a Hi-Fi somewhere else or in the car. They can still bounce the final stereo mix in real time if they want.


On the other hand, cutting RTAS (and TDM?) support is going to prevent a lot of people from switching over - I'm aware they feel they have to at some point, but I think they should support both until the majority of the market is releasing in AAX format. I'm sure I read somewhere that Avid claim the RTAS architecture wouldn't support 64-Bit processing or something (someone correct me?) but VST and AU both seem to work fine (I'm running Logic Pro in 64-Bit now, on my new machine and none of my plug-ins [AU] failed validation or struggle to my knowledge) so I wonder how much of it is about Avid forcing users to change to their ideal way of working, so they don't have to cater for as many plug-in formats in the future.
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roaraudio
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#6
Yer totally. I have read a book, Mixing with your mind, and he discusses the advantages of having each channel output the same Voltage, because it makes your mix better (the dude is a crackhead, ha). So its pretty exciting that i can do that now (in theory, i can't afford pt 11 -just got pt10).
A lecturer of mine made a good point as to the offline bouncing.. That real time bouncing with imprint CPU fluctuations in the conversion process and if a bounce is done quickly that wouldn't occur.. Not sure if i'd agree but it'll be interesting to read peoples comments in the future.

Yer.. avids just trying to seem more classy with this new plug architecture haha. Although i think the larger Plug companies will probably (they bloody should) release a bunch of mods when pt11 finally hits.
DisarmGoliath
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#7
I have 'Mixing With Your Mind', great book *now to read the rest of your post*


Edit: Not sure I get what you/he mean about real time bouncing - is he saying it is better in offline mode, or worse? Theoretically, real-time bouncing is less taxing on the CPU to my knowledge because it doesn't have to speed through the track way faster than it was tracked and simulate how all the plug-ins etc. would respond at normal speeds (e.g if you set a reverb pre-delay at 12ms, obviously it won't still be 12ms if you are bouncing at 4 times the speed your playback is). I am still barely awake, however, so may be having a dim moment
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roaraudio
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#8
He was saying that it'd be less taxing on the CPU. but i don't agree. And for the reasons you mentioned... pre delay. And plugins aren't transparent and take actual time to process audioso yer... I feel like offline bouncing is bad. Real time accurate.
Cavalcade
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#9
Quote by chatterbox272
So it's available as 64 bit, has RMS and Peak metering, and offline bouncing. Reaper's had all that for ages, sounds like they're playing a little bit of catch up.

What? I'd expect any decent DAW to have peak metering. Why do people even use Pro Tools?
DisarmGoliath
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#10
Quote by Cavalcade
What? I'd expect any decent DAW to have peak metering. Why do people even use Pro Tools?

Because it has easily the best user interface for editing audio, of the major commercial DAW's, and while it may be lacking some of the typical features of other DAW's, it generally has fewer bugs and is more stable. It also has a lot of features that other DAW's don't but the average user wouldn't notice, which is important to a lot of the guys who work in the studio 8+ hours a day, five days a week. It also offers a lot of control with all the key commands on offer, should people bother to learn them.

Not a PT user myself, but don't dismiss it for a few things it doesn't do - a lot of the stuff it does do are done very well.


I know it sounds like fanboy-ism, but I'm a Logic Pro user and that's probably the biggest rival to PT in the pro-audio world (that or Cubase, which is less popular in the UK but quite popular in the US and continental Europe) - I'm used to Logic and I see myself mixing in Logic now for a long time, but if I could afford to spare the cash on pure luxury, I would buy PT and use that to track in and edit with, then export the WAV's to Logic and mix in there.
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chatterbox272
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#11
Quote by Cavalcade
What? I'd expect any decent DAW to have peak metering. Why do people even use Pro Tools?

It had peak I believe, if my understanding is correct (hopefully it isn't) it's the RMS that's new. Because of habit, and for some people it fits their workflow best. But mostly habit.
MatrixClaw
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#12
^^Well, you can have your offline bouncing and wait for that dumb thing to render for 5 min. I have better things to do with my time than sit there and wait for the project to render forever

I think its funny how 11 supposedly addresses people's concerns about upgrade prices, and while they've lowered the prices for HD, to upgrade from native is still ridiculous. I'm glad I bought the education version, because it hasn't even been a year since they released 10. If I had to pay for another upgrade so quickly, I'd be selling my license and telling Avid to shove it.
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DisarmGoliath
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#13
Yeah, pricing and Avid's business model has always put me off buying a PT license and doing as I said (tracking and editing in it). I would have hoped that by now, they would have realised that they are boxing themselves into an increasingly-bankrupt sector of the industry as many studios are struggling to find the work to stay in operation, even now, and that if they altered their model a little they could take a bigger chunk of the consumer and amateur market.

I mean, there has been progress (they got rid of a lot of the crippling for what was LE *does PT LE exist in the current versions?* and the need for Digidesign/Avid-approved interfaces) but they still lag behind the other competitors in terms of implementation of current-gen features.

If the people that use PT just to look 'professional' would stop buying into that model, I think there'd be enough criticism from their userbase that Avid would bring themselves more in line with the other DAW-developers out there; they just know that for now they can sit one step behind the competition, until each feature in the other DAW's has been well-received or dismissed, before adding it to their featureset.
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lockwolf
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#15
Quote by Cavalcade
I realized Pro Tools wasn't worth the hype when I found out it didn't natively support VST plugins. That's some grade-A arrogance.


I'm going to take some flack for saying this but so what? I know there are thousands of free VSTs out there but at the same time, Free doesn't always equate to better. From a beginners perspective, its great to look at all the shiny EQs, Compressors & such that you could try to your hearts desire. Though, what good is 600 free compressors when in all reality, you need in most situations the one or two basic ones that come with your DAW? I know everyone has their fancy modeled ones but I have huge doubts that a free VST SSL EQ is going to sound more like an SSL than my Waves SSL EQ.

Pro Tools is called Pro Tools for obvious reasons, its a Professional Tool for audio recording. They've used the RTAS format so that, in theory, it makes it easier for developers to code for PT and to have it run smooth on its system. With VST, since its an open platform, you've gotta code so that it works on multiple DAWs that will each have their own problems with it. If you want an easy thing to compare it to, think Mac Vs. PC instead of PT RTAS Vs. VST (Oh god, I'm gonna get flamed). You've got a closed development for something with more constants (This case, PT) versus an open platform that has a lot of different devices to run on (VST & multiple DAWs).

I could be completely off on this but then again, I paid $100 for my VST to RTAS adapter and even with the plugins I've wrapped & used, I don't use them as much as my RTAS plugins I've paid for since they're usually better quality than the free VSTs I've downloaded.
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roaraudio
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#16
^. Yerp. Seriously. Vsts are for hobbyists and people who make electronic music.
dannycasevnx
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#17
Quote by lockwolf
I'm going to take some flack for saying this but so what? I know there are thousands of free VSTs out there but at the same time, Free doesn't always equate to better. From a beginners perspective, its great to look at all the shiny EQs, Compressors & such that you could try to your hearts desire. Though, what good is 600 free compressors when in all reality, you need in most situations the one or two basic ones that come with your DAW? I know everyone has their fancy modeled ones but I have huge doubts that a free VST SSL EQ is going to sound more like an SSL than my Waves SSL EQ.


This.

Having plenty of different EQ's and comps is great but when you're doing this as more than a hobby it's helpful to have go-to tools that you can rely on. I'm not saying that free plug ins can't be good but you won't really find them in professional situations, which is where you are most likely to find Pro Tools in use.

Personally I prefer using PT because it has been in every studio I've recorded in and if a client is sending me something to mix from a studio 9/10 times I can guarantee that they can provide me with a PT session. It just makes everything easier and works when I most need it to.

Hobbyists and beginners like to turn their nose up and constantly compare it to Reaper but I haven't met a single Professional sound engineer who would choose it over PT. I may not be a professional but I do this as more than a hobby and I agree with them, in the world of real studios and proper sound engineering Pro Tools > Majority of other DAWs. Feel free to flame me on that but it's my opinion.
ChemicalFire
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#18
Quote by roaraudio
^. Yerp. Seriously. Vsts are for hobbyists and people who make electronic music.


...

What lockwolf said was pretty reasonable. Lack of VST support doesn't make it bad because really, if you're using ProTools chances are that you're in a position to buy RTAS/AAX plugs anyway... or have them bought for you by the studio you work for.


What you said is perhaps the most ignorant thing I've heard on the board in weeks.

Quote by dannycasevnx


Hobbyists and beginners like to turn their nose up and constantly compare it to Reaper but I haven't met a single Professional sound engineer who would choose it over PT. I may not be a professional but I do this as more than a hobby and I agree with them, in the world of real studios and proper sound engineering Pro Tools > Majority of other DAWs. Feel free to flame me on that but it's my opinion.


It's only because so many big studios have huge pro-tools rigs that they can't replace it and that it's become industry standard... meaning that if you wan't to work in a large studio you pretty much HAVE to use it because that's what they use.

Doesn't mean something produced in REAPER is any less professional than something made in REAPER.

It's opinion. Use Protools. Use Acid. Use Reaper. Whatever. It doesn't matter as long as it sounds good.
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Cavalcade
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#19
I guess I see where you're coming from now. Part of it, though, is that I do make a fair amount of electronic music. In electronic, it's not just a matter of the usual reverb/comp/EQ/delay types of plugins; if you see something somewhere that catches your fancy, you try it out. Most of these plugins are distributed as VSTs. And charging extra for VST support over your native plugin format? If that isn't arrogance, what is it?
ChemicalFire
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#20
It's forcing market share... like Apple do with tonnes of their stuff. Make sure you HAVE to use their shit with their shit. Meaning that if you wanna use PT you gotta make sure all your shit is PT compatible (which will probably mean it's not compatible with anything else.)

It's a loathsome business practice if you ask me.
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Cavalcade
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#21
Quote by ChemicalFire
What you said is perhaps the most ignorant thing I've heard on the board in weeks.


Quote by ChemicalFire
It's forcing market share... like Apple do with tonnes of their stuff. Make sure you HAVE to use their shit with their shit. Meaning that if you wanna use PT you gotta make sure all your shit is PT compatible (which will probably mean it's not compatible with anything else.)

It's a loathsome business practice if you ask me.


Well then, it seems you agree with the most ignorant thing you've heard on the board in weeks.
dannycasevnx
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#22
Quote by ChemicalFire



It's only because so many big studios have huge pro-tools rigs that they can't replace it and that it's become industry standard... meaning that if you wan't to work in a large studio you pretty much HAVE to use it because that's what they use.

Doesn't mean something produced in REAPER is any less professional than something made in REAPER.

It's opinion. Use Protools. Use Acid. Use Reaper. Whatever. It doesn't matter as long as it sounds good.


Oh I totally agree with you but unfortunately I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. Even though Pro Tools is my DAW of choice I still paid for REAPER and use it often, in fact I was using it at a session in someones house a few days ago. And after discovering the white tie theme I'm tempted on using it a lot more for mix projects.

BUT, I think the fact that we have an "industry standard" is a wonderful thing, it means for people like me, who earn money from this, hardly ever have to worry about compatibility issues coming from a studio to me to mix.

As with pretty much everything in sound engineering there is no right or wrong, especially with DAWs, its just having PT as an "industry standard" makes engineers lives a fair bit easier.
ChemicalFire
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#23
Quote by Cavalcade
Well then, it seems you agree with the most ignorant thing you've heard on the board in weeks.


No?

Well... kinda? I guess?

But the idea that using RTAS makes you a "pro" is BS and the idea that RTAS is actually better than VST and that you can't (in terms of quality and not because you're locked out of using them) use VST in pro work is also kinda silly. I'm not for talking about VST in a derogatory way.

I'm basically saying that PT have very cleverly locked lots and lots of people into using their software by making sure all the plugins and such you've bought for PT can't be used anywhere else, meaning you can't use them anywhere else easily even if you wanted to.
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MatrixClaw
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#24
^95% of RTAS plugins come bundled with VST formats, unless you're buying a plugin from Avid, at which point is likely a TDM product and anyone who's using an HD rig could probably care less if they can use it in a VST-based host

Quote by dannycasevnx
BUT, I think the fact that we have an "industry standard" is a wonderful thing, it means for people like me, who earn money from this, hardly ever have to worry about compatibility issues coming from a studio to me to mix.

No offense but £20 a song for editing and mixing is hardly making money.

That being said, I can agree with you on the ease of use. That's really the only reason I own Pro Tools, tbh. Usually I get a project, bounce all the files and then bring them back into Reaper, though
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lockwolf
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#25
I was talking with my 2 audio engineering coworkers. One interns at a local studio and her thought was "its a game changer and the best update to happen ever". My other coworker was just kinda meh about it & thought it was dumb that they were discontinuing RTAS support.

The good news, if you have a Pro Tools 11 license, Avid is also have a PT 10 license as well. So at least you can still use AAX & RTAS formats together, you just wont get the 64-bit audio engine which is the whole reason to upgrade to 11.

Did anyone else notice the new Fast-Tracks? They look good but considering the past fast tracks, its probably a pass. Also, I know iPads are cool and whatnot but does every new interface have to support it?
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dannycasevnx
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#26
Quote by MatrixClaw

No offense but £20 a song for editing and mixing is hardly making money.


Where did you get that price from?

EDIT: Oh it's on my website, that's old, it doesn't get updated because it doesn't bring any clients, I've kinda given up on it.
Last edited by dannycasevnx at Apr 10, 2013,
Xiaoxi
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#28
Quote by Cavalcade
I realized Pro Tools wasn't worth the hype when I found out it didn't natively support VST plugins. That's some grade-A arrogance.

People who only know VST don't actually know anything about music technology or production.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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jof1029
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#29
Quote by Xiaoxi
People who only know VST don't actually know anything about music technology or production.

now thats actually some grade A arrogance right there.
Cavalcade
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#30
Quote by jof1029
now thats actually some grade A arrogance right there.

And also a strong contender for the most ignorant thing I've heard on the board in weeks. This whole thread proves my stupidity is contagious.

That last sentence is sigged in 3... 2... 1...
Xiaoxi
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#31
lolz

...modes and scales are still useless.


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jof1029
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#32
so saying that people who only use VSTs dont know anything and arent worth consideration isnt arrogant? thats like saying someone who uses a free CAD program like sketchup doesnt know anything because they arent using AutoCAD.
Xiaoxi
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#33
Quote by jof1029
so saying that people who only use VSTs dont know anything and arent worth consideration isnt arrogant? thats like saying someone who uses a free CAD program like sketchup doesnt know anything because they arent using AutoCAD.

bad analogy

...modes and scales are still useless.


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ChemicalFire
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#34
Quote by Xiaoxi
bad analogy


It's not.

You're basically saying people aren't good unless they're using pro-tools.
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Xiaoxi
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#35
Quote by ChemicalFire
It's not.

You're basically saying people aren't good unless they're using pro-tools.

nope

I'm saying people who are fixated on VST don't realize it's just a format, of which there are many for the same plugins.

So do I consider someone ignorant for bitching about lack of VST support when there's RTAS/AAX/DSP/AU/MAS versions of the same products, optimized to work with proprietary hardware and engines? And of course sprinkled with hilariously amateur comments like "why would anyone ever need PT???" Yea, I'd consider them a big n00b.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#36
im not talking about people who are fixated on vst. im just saying that calling someone who chooses to use vst instead of other stuff (for convienence or whatever other reason) not worth mentioning, comes across as arrogant.

yes, there are other formats. and most (good) plugins come in multiple formats. and i also understand why there are other formats and why developers would want to use them. thats not my issue with what you said.
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#37
Quote by jof1029
m just saying that calling someone who chooses to use vst instead of other stuff (for convienence or whatever other reason) not worth mentioning, comes across as arrogant.
And I never addressed that person.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#38
then i must be misreading what you wrote. it sounds like you are talking about anyone who only uses VSTs. if thats not what you meant, i apologize.
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#39
Quote by jof1029
then i must be misreading what you wrote. it sounds like you are talking about anyone who only uses VSTs. if thats not what you meant, i apologize.

Not at all. People on Windows are basically limited to the VST format outside of proprietary DAWs. But many of these people, because of this little limit bubble, think VST is the plug-in itself rather than just one of many formats of the plugin. You can't deny that.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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