#1
I've heard Cardioid mics can only pick up right in front of the mic. I'm looking for a decent mic that I can use to record an entire room. At jam sessions sometimes we just want to record the jam but the only mic I have is a cardioid, so last time I tried, I went back to listen and all you could here was my voice
Gear:
Fender Telecaster w/ Dual Gibson Humbuckers
Ovation Celebrity Acoustic/Electric
Fender Frontman 212R
Band(s):
Old Too Young (Folk/Bluegrass/Punk)
The Orange Line (Stoner Metal/Punk/Alternative)
#2
Cardioid is a pick up pattern, kinda looks like this:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQs_TizISfbU-dP-2XC02roERtXqScsDj6cefX2LbWullbUB1O-UQ

Nothing to do with the distance it can record, it just won't really pick up much behind it. If you want to just put a mic in the middle of the room and have it get EVERYTHING from around it. You'll need an omni-directional mic:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKuY1lvk5AaDjtfdlYVvEA0pbzjvhBu2x3gfnTvF6xu9LcrachDA
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#3
May I ask the mic you use?
If you tape up the neck of an sm57 it effectively turns into an omni directional dynamic microphone. I can explain why if you want.

Omni directional mics are cool i forget your question
#4
I to answer your question,..
I love the akg 414s but they're tough on the wallet.
But you can't go wrin with an nt2a, they're brighte than 414s but still good. An cheaper.
#5
Quote by roaraudio
May I ask the mic you use?
If you tape up the neck of an sm57 it effectively turns into an omni directional dynamic microphone. I can explain why if you want.

Omni directional mics are cool i forget your question

can you actually explain? That's quite an interesting phenomenon
#6
^ basically, the way you make a cardioid is to delay the signal coming into the back of the mic in such a way that it cancels out the sound on the front of it when the source is behind it.

i.e when a sound is incident in front of the mic, the delay causes the signal on the front of the diaphragm to be in phase with the back, doubling the level.

when a sound is incident behind the mic, the delay causes the signal on the front to be out of phase with the back, cancelling it out.

if you stop sound coming in to the back of the mic entirely, it just does what the capsule would do without the acoustic network at the back, i.e pick up every direction equally.

EDIT I haven't explained that very clearly. I might try again later!
#7
Just for recording rehearsals?

Get a Behringer ECM8000. It's about $40, and is really a pretty decent microphone.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#8
Quote by tim_mop
^ basically, the way you make a cardioid is to delay the signal coming into the back of the mic in such a way that it cancels out the sound on the front of it when the source is behind it.

i.e when a sound is incident in front of the mic, the delay causes the signal on the front of the diaphragm to be in phase with the back, doubling the level.

when a sound is incident behind the mic, the delay causes the signal on the front to be out of phase with the back, cancelling it out.

if you stop sound coming in to the back of the mic entirely, it just does what the capsule would do without the acoustic network at the back, i.e pick up every direction equally.

EDIT I haven't explained that very clearly. I might try again later!

yeah to be honest that wasn't that clear really.

Anyways, by the same idea, does it mean you can theoretically make any cardioid into omnidirectional?
#9
Quote by Vendetta V
yeah to be honest that wasn't that clear really.

Anyways, by the same idea, does it mean you can theoretically make any cardioid into omnidirectional?


Pretty much! This is also why sound engineers hate it when people hold their mics so high they cover the bottom of the grill. Makes avoiding feedback very hard!

Yeah, it wasn't a well thought out explanation, very rushed!
#10
So, there are basically two principles of operation for microphones:

Pressure Operated (OMNI) - the back of the diaphragm is closed off (aside from a small hole to keep air pressure the same), which means that any change in pressure caused by sound waves will result in signal

Pressure Gradient (FIGURE OF 8) - both sides of the diaphragm are open to changes in pressure. pressure incident on the back of the mic is out of phase with pressure incident on the front of the mic. To give an example, if a sound is incident on the mic at 90degrees to the diaphragm, the pressure on each side of the diaphragm is equal and no signal is produced (hence the fo8 pattern)

A cardioid mic is a pressure gradient mic, where an acoustic labyrinth is used to delay the sound pressure incident on the back of the diaphragm. Different delays result in different polar patterns.

To make a cardioid pattern, the delay must be equal to the time it takes for a sound to get from the back of the diaphragm to the front of the diaphragm. So when you talk directly behind the mic, the pressure on both sides of the diaphragm are equal and opposite, so no sound!


By covering up that network, you basically seal off the back of the diaphragm and create a pressure oriented mic!

Does this make more sense than last time?
Last edited by tim_mop at Apr 16, 2013,
#11

To make a cardioid pattern, the delay must be equal to the time it takes
Not going to argue with the explanation its goodish (i suck at explaning!) but it's correct.
I want to note that the "delay" is referring to a complete out of phase signal, that is delayed.

Pretty cool stuff
If you get a chance check out Eargles The microphone book
#12
^ think that's the very book I used in my Electroacoustics module at uni last year.
#14
I'll have to check that out.

From my experience so far, this may be the greatest resource on microphones on the planet:

http://www.hr-faq.org/HarveyThread.doc

It is a condensed version of a 97-page thread from this site:
http://homerecording.com/bbs/equipment-forums/microphones/how-does-diaphragm-size-polar-pattern-relate-mic-applications-27030/

I point you to this because it is from "someone who isn't one of us know-nothings."

Harvey Gerst, the author, has 50+ years of experience as a gold record songwriter, recording engineer, producer, and product design specialist. He's worked with Bob Dylan, Albert King, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, and Jefferson Airplane. He designed prducts for JBL, Trident, Morley, etc. In short, there are few people who know more about this stuff than him, and he has chosen to share it.

He covers everything from different types of mics and how they work, to how to use them and how to place them. He's NOT a gear snob. He *likes* some of the Behringer and MXL stuff. He offers a LOT of guidance on how to choose the best tool for the job.

It's a really great read for anybody interested in recording. I keep going back to it and I understand some parts of it a little more each time.
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#15
Quote by tim_mop
So, there are basically two principles of operation for microphones:

Pressure Operated (OMNI) - the back of the diaphragm is closed off (aside from a small hole to keep air pressure the same), which means that any change in pressure caused by sound waves will result in signal

Pressure Gradient (FIGURE OF 8) - both sides of the diaphragm are open to changes in pressure. pressure incident on the back of the mic is out of phase with pressure incident on the front of the mic. To give an example, if a sound is incident on the mic at 90degrees to the diaphragm, the pressure on each side of the diaphragm is equal and no signal is produced (hence the fo8 pattern)

A cardioid mic is a pressure gradient mic, where an acoustic labyrinth is used to delay the sound pressure incident on the back of the diaphragm. Different delays result in different polar patterns.

To make a cardioid pattern, the delay must be equal to the time it takes for a sound to get from the back of the diaphragm to the front of the diaphragm. So when you talk directly behind the mic, the pressure on both sides of the diaphragm are equal and opposite, so no sound!


By covering up that network, you basically seal off the back of the diaphragm and create a pressure oriented mic!

Does this make more sense than last time?

Yes it actually does! that's a great piece of info right there! Thanks a ton!

I should try and see if I can get my pencil style mics and large diaphragm mics to act as omni... wouldn't be much too easy though I think
#16
Right now all I have is a Peavey r100i or something to the sound of that. Its not a good mic.
Gear:
Fender Telecaster w/ Dual Gibson Humbuckers
Ovation Celebrity Acoustic/Electric
Fender Frontman 212R
Band(s):
Old Too Young (Folk/Bluegrass/Punk)
The Orange Line (Stoner Metal/Punk/Alternative)
#17
Quote by axemanchris
Just for recording rehearsals?

Get a Behringer ECM8000. It's about $40, and is really a pretty decent microphone.

CT

This.


Seriously, although all this discussion is interesting the answer is right here. The ECM8000 gets a really accurate room sound for the price.


You could also stick a boundary mic (PZM) on two opposite walls if you feel like getting a bit more in-depth.
#20
Any suggestios on a boundary mic? That sounds interesting.
Gear:
Fender Telecaster w/ Dual Gibson Humbuckers
Ovation Celebrity Acoustic/Electric
Fender Frontman 212R
Band(s):
Old Too Young (Folk/Bluegrass/Punk)
The Orange Line (Stoner Metal/Punk/Alternative)
#21
I found an Audio Technica ATR-4697 Boundry Omnidirectional Condenser Microphone for $20 on Amazon. Would the condenser part make it useless for this situation? I've heard that you shouldn't use condenser mics for istruments. Or would the fact that Ill have it on two walls away from the amps/drums make it okay? That also raises another question. How should I arrange my gear? I'll have a drum set, a guitar amp, a bass amp, and probably a mic plugged into a guitar practice amp. It's a decent sized rectangular room with a full bay window. There's also a TV with a big speaker and a couch, so htat should help room frequencies. (Right?)
Gear:
Fender Telecaster w/ Dual Gibson Humbuckers
Ovation Celebrity Acoustic/Electric
Fender Frontman 212R
Band(s):
Old Too Young (Folk/Bluegrass/Punk)
The Orange Line (Stoner Metal/Punk/Alternative)
#22
^ condenser mic's should definitely be used for instruments. In fact in classical recording its pretty much always used (i guess what you might have heard is that older models can't handle SPLs as high as dynamics, but most models are fine).

I'd suggest putting everything in a circle with the mic in the middle. Then have the louder instruments further back than the quieter ones. Make test recordings to see if you can hear everything clearly (that's the only criteria for what you're doing, as its not going to sound very good!).

(EDIT, also worth noting that omnis have slightly worse HF response at the back compared with the front, so point it towards the most important thing, ie the voice!)

The sofa might do a small amount to help. but in reality it will make little difference! If its high enough to cover some of the drums it might be worth putting in behind the kit to reduce the sound that's going towards the wall.
Last edited by tim_mop at Apr 25, 2013,
#23
I had heard using a condenser to record acoustics/pianos were perfect but that an amp could blow the mic.
Gear:
Fender Telecaster w/ Dual Gibson Humbuckers
Ovation Celebrity Acoustic/Electric
Fender Frontman 212R
Band(s):
Old Too Young (Folk/Bluegrass/Punk)
The Orange Line (Stoner Metal/Punk/Alternative)
#24
Yeah, that's more a problem with old condensers. And anyway, with it in the centre of the room you'll not get anywhere near damaging it.

EDIT I didn't realise it was a boundary mic! Ignore what I said about putting it in the centre of the room!
#25
No. Someone else suggested boundary mics so I was wondering what to do if I ended up picking up boundary mics.
Gear:
Fender Telecaster w/ Dual Gibson Humbuckers
Ovation Celebrity Acoustic/Electric
Fender Frontman 212R
Band(s):
Old Too Young (Folk/Bluegrass/Punk)
The Orange Line (Stoner Metal/Punk/Alternative)