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MissingSomethin
Registered User
Join date: Mar 2013
100 IQ
#1
Here is a little arpeggio progression using: A7 G7 A7 C7 D7
Stream: https://soundcloud.com/missingsomethin/a7-g7-c7-d7-backing-track
Download MP3 here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zbm3hswbge2tvvm/v3656OkGlJ

I thought I would give it a closer look.
Just picking the key of A (since I start with that chord?) I have the following:
A7: 1 5 -7
G7: -7 4 -6
C7: -3 -7 -2
D7: 4 1 -3
http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/guitar/index_rb.html

In choosing a lead scale/mode, do I ignore the C7 D7 as a "passing tone" since it's shorter and connects back to the main riff of A G A?
Otherwise, that -6 in the G7, and the -2 in the C7? This would make it -3 -6 -7 for a Phrygian mode (-2 -3 -6 -7)
Before any of this, I tried to just play some lead licks by feel, and then looked up the chosen notes, after the fact.
And these are the notes I gravitated towards naturally, anyway.

Can anyone loop it and post a recording of their own leads over it?
I will do the same. I am curious how different people interpret leads over the same progression.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
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MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
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#2
It's in A and I think the 7th note in the chords is just a color note. Minor pentatonic scale would fit it (well, it fits anything ). Yeah, just play notes in A minor scale and chord tones over it. Over the A7 chord you could play the major third of course. And maybe avoid playing B over C7. But yeah, it's just a basic I-bVII-I-bIII-IV progression. And over that most of the notes I would play would be in minor pentatonic.

It's in the key of A. Emphasize the chord tones. Maybe just ignore the 7th note in the chords. Think it as A-G-A-C-D and solo over the progression like you would solo over it without the 7th notes. Listen to the sound and play sounds you hear and not just fingerings you see.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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KG6_Steven
Eats ponies for breakfast
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#3
The G7, C7 are not in the key of A - the D7 is, though. You could think of it as being in the key of D, but the C7 is not diatonic to D major.

Given that, you could treat each chord as it's own and change with each chord - in other words, play a G major scale over the G7, a D major scale over the D7 and so on. Or, you could just play in the key of D and alter the solo when you hit the C7.
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
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#4
Quote by MissingSomethin
Here is a little arpeggio progression using: A7 G7 A7 C7 D7
Stream: https://soundcloud.com/missingsomethin/a7-g7-c7-d7-backing-track
Download MP3 here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zbm3hswbge2tvvm/v3656OkGlJ

I thought I would give it a closer look.
Just picking the key of A (since I start with that chord?) I have the following:
A7: 1 5 -7
G7: -7 4 -6
C7: -3 -7 -2
D7: 4 1 -3
http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/guitar/index_rb.html

In choosing a lead scale/mode, do I ignore the C7 D7 as a "passing tone" since it's shorter and connects back to the main riff of A G A?
Otherwise, that -6 in the G7, and the -2 in the C7? This would make it -3 -6 -7 for a Phrygian mode (-2 -3 -6 -7)
Before any of this, I tried to just play some lead licks by feel, and then looked up the chosen notes, after the fact.
And these are the notes I gravitated towards naturally, anyway.

Can anyone loop it and post a recording of their own leads over it?
I will do the same. I am curious how different people interpret leads over the same progression.

Am pentatonic over everything. For G7, learn the sound of a G major triad over the whole neck.
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
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#5
Quote by KG6_Steven
The G7, C7 are not in the key of A - the D7 is, though. You could think of it as being in the key of D, but the C7 is not diatonic to D major.

Given that, you could treat each chord as it's own and change with each chord - in other words, play a G major scale over the G7, a D major scale over the D7 and so on. Or, you could just play in the key of D and alter the solo when you hit the C7.

Disagree with all this. It's in the key of A if it resolves to A. And A is the key center here. I wouldn't treat every chord as a new key. As I said, the 7th note is just a color tone. The progression is I-bVII-I-bIII-IV, everything is in the key of A. And the key is not D. It doesn't feel like it resolves to D. Play over it like you would play over A-G-A-C-D (without the 7th notes).
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
P_Trik
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#6
What mdc said. The magic of the minor pentatonic, plus pick out anomalies within the individual chords and 'step out' of the pentaonic scale using them against the chords. For example, A- Pentatonic is A C D E G so over the A7 (A C# E G) you might bend a C to C#, over the G7 (G B D F) you might center a melody around B or emphasize the F, over C7 (C E G Bb) play the same melody centered on B, but change the B to a Bb and over D7 (D F# G C) emphasize the F#. The nice thing is that if your tonal center is A, there's a zillion things you can do just using the A- Pentatonic
MissingSomethin
Registered User
Join date: Mar 2013
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#7
Playing different scales for each of the chords is too advanced for me. I am still at the stage where I am just trying to make the lead sound decent, especially for a slower lead that would be appropriate for this slower backing track. This takes up all of my concentration. If there were a radically different (and longer) progression thrown in, I could maybe just back and forth. But, I can't do it just for a single measure. So, I just need one basic scale to work from.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
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MissingSomethin
Registered User
Join date: Mar 2013
100 IQ
#8
I'd like to use more than A minor pentatonic, since I am losing the flavors of the 2 & 6. I have tried to move beyond minor pentatonic soloing for a more developed and mature sound.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
60 IQ
#9
Quote by MissingSomethin
This takes up all of my concentration.

That's cuz your ear is underdeveloped. The more developed your ear, the less concentration needed.
So, I just need one basic scale to work from.

There isn't one.
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
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#10
Quote by MissingSomethin
I have tried to move beyond minor pentatonic soloing for a more developed and mature sound.

Ok. G7 is a non-functioning dominant. know what that means? It means you can use G Lydian dominant scale over it.
P_Trik
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#11
Quote by MissingSomethin
I'd like to use more than A minor pentatonic, since I am losing the flavors of the 2 & 6. I have tried to move beyond minor pentatonic soloing for a more developed and mature sound.


Look to the greats from Clapton and his ilk who use pentatonic patterns as a 'skeleton' while using 'flavors' out of diatonic scales and the arpeggios of the chords they play over. Clapton, like his old school american blues heros, could squeeze the tastiest stuff out of just a handful of notes. Good luck
cdgraves
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2013
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#12
well I'd probably start by playing A7 G7 A7 C7 D7 arpeggios.

Never too early to start focusing on harmonic relationships. Don't get in the habit of doing "in key" playing over actual chord progressions, especially if they include/imply key changes.
KG6_Steven
Eats ponies for breakfast
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#13
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Disagree with all this. It's in the key of A if it resolves to A. And A is the key center here. I wouldn't treat every chord as a new key. As I said, the 7th note is just a color tone. The progression is I-bVII-I-bIII-IV, everything is in the key of A. And the key is not D. It doesn't feel like it resolves to D. Play over it like you would play over A-G-A-C-D (without the 7th notes).



Just because something resolves to something else doesn't mean that's in that key. From a theory standpoint, those notes, or chords (G and C), are not diatonic to the key of A major, which was my point. I hate to talk about scales, but as long as you play chords that are diatonic to a given key, that scale will work over any of them. Play something that's non-diatonic to that major key and now you have to start thinking about which notes in your solo will cause dissonance and clash - because you're no longer in the major key. Some notes will work, as they may be common to the two keys, but not all of them will resolve.
ha_asgag
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Join date: May 2007
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#14
Not really a dominant seventh barber shop harmony as I expected from reading the title since the major 3rds are missing .

With a little practice it could end up having an exotic flair to it if you use notes from

A Phrygian [A-Bb-C-D-E-F-G-A]

OR

A Jewish / Spanish Phrygian [A-Bb-C#-D-E-F-G-A] ...

3rd and 6ths + tremolo - i m i m i m...
Last edited by ha_asgag at Apr 22, 2013,
HotspurJr
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Join date: Jul 2011
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#15
Quote by KG6_Steven
Just because something resolves to something else doesn't mean that's in that key. From a theory standpoint, those notes, or chords (G and C), are not diatonic to the key of A major, which was my point.


Yes, those notes are not diatonic to that key. So what? It is still in that key. The presence of non-diatonic notes does not mean you've changed key.

You are 100% wrong when you say that resolution != key. The key is DEFINED by the resolution.

(Furthermore, D7 isn't diatonic to A major, either. Dmaj7 is.)

There's no need to switch scales because there are non-diatonic notes. Yes, you have to be careful to avoid clashes ... but get what, you have to do that with diatonic notes, too! (eg, play a D note over an A major chord ... all diatonic to A major, still creates a clash between the D and the C# in the chord).
cdgraves
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#16
Quote by KG6_Steven
Just because something resolves to something else doesn't mean that's in that key.


Incorrect. The chord of resolution defines the key.
rich2k4
Musician
Join date: Aug 2004
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#17
The fact that all these are dominant chords changes things. You can't just say "solo in A major" doesn't work like that.

SomethingMissin, i posted this on TGP as well, but i'll post it here in case anyone else wants ideas. I whipped this up really quick. various ideas. chord tones, key center approach, melodic minor, pentatonic, etc. The last section is strictly chord tones, to show you that you should start learning your arpeggios/chord tones asap.

Nothing really amazing.

https://www.box.com/s/fgjckzvm4o2kd8rx0xnu
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
Last edited by rich2k4 at Apr 22, 2013,
rich2k4
Musician
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#19
Quote by ha_asgag
rich2k4's 16 bar demo improv sounded bluesy... here's a rough tab of the audio (progression and the sample)


Second half was basically blues. Then the last time around was arpeggios. I never had my improv's tabbed out before. Pretty cool

Notice how even when I do the quicker scaler runs, I always make it a point to resolve to a chord tone. Thats where arpeggios come in again.

Measure 10 is notes taken from Ab melodic minor

It is my opinion that if you want to improvise at a high level, but you don't know your chord tones and arpeggios, then forget about it.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
Last edited by rich2k4 at Apr 22, 2013,
Captaincranky
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#20
Quote by MaggaraMarine
It's in A and I think the 7th note in the chords is just a color note. Minor pentatonic scale would fit it (well, it fits anything ). Yeah, just play notes in A minor scale and chord tones over it. Over the A7 chord you could play the major third of course. And maybe avoid playing B over C7. But yeah, it's just a basic I-bVII-I-bIII-IV progression. And over that most of the notes I would play would be in minor pentatonic.

It's in the key of A. Emphasize the chord tones. Maybe just ignore the 7th note in the chords. Think it as A-G-A-C-D and solo over the progression like you would solo over it without the 7th notes. Listen to the sound and play sounds you hear and not just fingerings you see.
I'm gonna side with the key of D crowd on this one. To fix this into the key of A, you need to find and E chord somewhere, or the whole thing has no 5th.

The 7ths are to add color though. Listen to the Rolling Stones "Dead Flowers". It's a I, IV, V mock country ditty in D major. But, Keith Richards sees fit to end it on a really jarring D7 open chord. It's almost an "ick", until you think, "meh, why the hell not".

But really,
Think it as A-G-A-C-D
you're trying to say that's not D...? There's just no place to stuff in a G# anywhere.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 22, 2013,
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
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#21
Run the A major scale over the track, then run the D major scale over the track. Which one sounds better?
Captaincranky
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#22
Quote by mdc
Run the A major scale over the track, then run the D major scale over the track. Which one sounds better?
Is that a trick question? Cause the G# in the A major scale would clash with almost every chord in the progression.

I'd argue that a modal scale of D would do the trick. No, I'm not trying to start an argument about modes, no I'm not trying to call it modal. Truth be told, I'd get rid of the D major chord altogether, and sub it with Bm7. But then, I never was much of a blues guy.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 22, 2013,
Captaincranky
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#24
What is that 2 posts to my own video? I do declare, that may be a personal best....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 22, 2013,
Captaincranky
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#26
Have fun with that G#. Or are we calling this scale "A major with a G natural"?

Sorry, b7th. Don't wanna abandon the tech jargon.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 22, 2013,
SkyValley
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#27
The truth is it really doesn't matter what you play as long as the downbeats of chord changes have chord tones, you end your phrases on "good" notes, and that you have a proper, measurable rhythm.
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MissingSomethin
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#28
Anyone want to post a solo attempt over this progression??
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rich2k4
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#30
Quote by Captaincranky
Have fun with that G#. Or are we calling this scale "A major with a G natural"?

Sorry, b7th. Don't wanna abandon the tech jargon.


Here is the thing, Music isn't frozen in time, it's constantly moving. Sure the G# will clash if you were to freeze the A7 chord and play G# and hold it there. No one ever does that. It's all about the melodies you create. You can play G# over A7, in fact Charlie Parker did it all the time. It's a matter of learning how each note reacts, and be able to control them.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
Captaincranky
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#32
Quote by Sean0913
I'd see it as a I IV V and bVII in A, the rest is just chord tone awareness. I don't see what's so hard about this one, really.
Because when you flat the 7th of A major you get a D major scale from 5th to 5th. Then there's the whole, "every chord has to be a b7", which kind of shits on theory in general.

Besides, where the heck do you see an E chord that would be a "V" of A major?

I think if you sum those chord tones, including the b7ths, you'll find you come pretty close to using the entire chromatic scale anyway. Well, except for the G# in the actual key of A major.

All of that notwithstanding, this is UG, and just because something doesn't have to be hard, doesn't mean it isn't our manifest destiny to make it so....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 23, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
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#33
Quote by Captaincranky
Because when you flat the 7th of A major you get a D major scale from 5th to 5th. Then there's the whole, "every chord has to be a b7", which kind of shits on theory in general.

Besides, where the heck do you see an E chord that would be a "V" of A major?

I think if you sum those chord tones, including the b7ths, you'll find you come pretty close to using the entire chromatic scale anyway. Well, except for the G# in the actual key of A major.

All of that notwithstanding, this is UG, and just because something doesn't have to be hard, doesn't mean it isn't our manifest destiny to make it so....

I just can't hear it resolving to D. Even though it has an A7, all the other chords are also 7th chords. So I would just ignore all the 7th notes (when looking at the function of the chords), they are just "color notes" and kind of don't change the function of the chord. I mean, if the progression was just A-G-A-C-D, what would the key be? Don't just look at it on paper, listen to it. Also the D chord is played for so short time that I wouldn't say it's the key.

Basic rock progression in A could be A-C-D. Or A-C-G or something. It doesn't need to have a G# to be in A major (or minor). Many rock songs have progressions without a V chord and they have lots of borrowed chords from the parallel minor. For example "Highway to Hell". It's in A major but the chords are A, G and D. (There's an E major just before the chorus though.)

Also, don't look at scales when you are finding out the key. Some chords fit some scale better but it doesn't mean it's the key. You need to listen to what the key center is. And over this progression you could just play A minor pentatonic and it would sound "rocking".
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
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Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 23, 2013,
rich2k4
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#34
You can't just ignore the 7ths though. The fact that the 7ths are there is a big deal. If you had higher extensions such as 13ths and 9ths, those can be ignored and just thought of as a regular 7th. But as soon as you change a normal triadic chord into a 7th, you're in a different game. If the chords are all diatonic, then changing them to 7ths might not be a big deal, but for a unorthodox progression like this, it makes a big difference.

Normal A major would be A C# E

G major = G B D

C = C E G

D = D F# A

if you want to go all triads, the group of notes you have is.

A B C C# D E F# G

All but one of the chords would work under D major. Only problem would be the C chord, but then all you have to do is change your C#'s into C's, and essentially at that point, you are playing in G major.

Progression doesn't have to resolve to D in order for you to improvise using the notes of D major.

When it is said to solo using D major, it doesn't mean "emphasize D major" it means, use the notes of D major, but also use your knowledge of chord tones.

This progression has no key, If it were all triad chords, you would say it is mostly in D major and switches to G major (although since the C is so short, even that's negligible) If you really want to be specific you can say A Mixolydian (but that's bullshit because this isn't modal and A mixolydian is the same notes as D major anyways so it is redundant)

Anyways this is all for a pure triadic approach. Since the 7ths are there, completely different ballgame.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
Captaincranky
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#35
How about if we say technically it's in D, but emotionally it's in A, and call it a draw?

A compromise would be D mixolydian.

With all that said, it doesn't really fall into a major key niche. It's a lot more bluesy than all that.

I would say playing Am pent over G7 provides some interesting permutations, not all of which are suitable. There's a G6, a Gsus4, A Gadd9. These are pretty durn folky, so I'd probably at least try Gm pent over the G7.
ha_asgag
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#36
Here are other similar progressions containing dominant 7th chords:
(in the Key of C)

C-D7-G7-C
C-F-D7-G7-C
C-A7-D7-G7-C
C-E7-A7-D7-G7-C
C-B7-E7-A7-D7-G7-C
Last edited by ha_asgag at Apr 23, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
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#37
Quote by ha_asgag
Here are other similar progressions containing dominant 7th chords:
(in the Key of C)

C-D7-G7-C
C-F-D7-G7-C
C-A7-D7-G7-C
C-E7-A7-D7-G7-C
C-B7-E7-A7-D7-G7-C

The case here is a bit different because none of the "dom7" chords really function as a dominant chord.

But that C-B7-E7-A7-D7-G7-C thing is just I-V/V/V/V/V-I. They are all secondary dominants.

But when the progression is A7-G7-A7-C7-D7, there are no secondary dominants.

IMO the progression sounds pretty "rocking". It sounds very similar to A-G-A-C-D which would be a basic rock song chord progression. It could be used in an AC/DC song for example. Using bVII and bIII chords is very usual. What I meant by "ignore the 7" is that it doesn't sound really that different without the 7th note.

Also @ Captaincranky: The key you are in is about the resolution. Another (and IMO better) example of an AC/DC song is "It's a Long Way to the Top". There are no V chords but it's in A major. The progression in the chorus (and guitar solo) is a basic bVII-IV-I (G-D-A). If you just look it on paper, it could also be in D major but it's not. It clearly resolves to A. The key is not all about the chords, it's also about in which order the chords are. Also rhythm has a lot to do with the key (for example if you spend more time on D than on A, it might feel like it's in D - not always though). Same chords function differently in a different context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqk-AKdTmyA
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
GoldenGuitar
Organiser of Sound
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#39
You can pretty much play any note in this progression and it'll work. But if you don't know what to do stick to chord tones 1,3,5,b7, if you want colour you can play b9, #9, #11, b13, 13. Try not play the natural 11th as it will either clash with the 3rd, or imply a 7sus4 sounding chord and you'll lose the function. Although I think in this circumstance it doesn't really matter. This progression is similar to cyclic progression in 4ths used in Jazz usually most to land in specifics keys and in turn arounds.
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
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#40
The only issue here is G7. Am pent over everything but.

Like I said before, G triad, G7 or Em7 arps (brings out 13th)

Edit: the bottom line here, TS, is that you NEED to learn your arpeggios.
Last edited by mdc at Apr 23, 2013,
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