Page 2 of 3
#41
Quote by Morphogenesis26
@Sam: Give your best examples of Progressive Death Metal bands.

Necrophagist, Carnefix, Obscura (though they might fit more into Technical DM), later Death, Origin.

I guess you could search Metal-Archives for more.
#42
How the hell are Necrophagist progressive? Or later Death for that matter... Symbolic definitely isn't progressive.. It'd be a stretch to call TSOP prog...
Free your mind and your ass will follow
The kingdom of heaven is within
Open up your funky mind and you can fly

Sumdeus
Last edited by romencer17 at Apr 27, 2013,
#43
Quote by romencer17
How the hell are Necrophagist progressive? Or later Death for that matter... Symbolic definitely isn't progressive.. It'd be a stretch to call TSOP prog...

Prog isn't really defined as narrowly as people think. Here's a simple meaning of progressive metal:
a blend of heavy, guitar-oriented metal music enriched with compositional innovation and complex arrangements, usually expressed through diverse instrumentation and often (but not always) with odd-time signatures.

Obviously, when it comes DM, there's not a lot diverse instrumentation. (Sometimes, there is, but it's rare.)
#44
Necrophagist are not progressive.

Progressive death metal should be death metal that is done in a really creative way and expands upon general ideas of the genre in new formats, something like Gorguts' Obscura comes to mind. Necrophagist simply takes death metal and tones down the heaviness while adding a bunch of wank and neoclassical stuff. Pretty much if you really think Necrophagist are progressive then we might as well call any technical death metal "progressive"
Free your mind and your ass will follow
The kingdom of heaven is within
Open up your funky mind and you can fly

Sumdeus
Last edited by romencer17 at Apr 27, 2013,
#45
They're tech
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#46
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Necrophagist, Carnefix, Obscura (though they might fit more into Technical DM), later Death, Origin.

I guess you could search Metal-Archives for more.


Wait...outside of Death, aren't all those bands just Death Metal bands that like to go fast like sonic?

And I think I'm starting to see Steve's opinions on Deathcore, and Metal in general, a lot clearer now. I'm also going to jam to The Flesh And The Power It Holds.
#47
slam/brutal death metal? I'd say that and tech death are the two most formulaic and predictable.
Free your mind and your ass will follow
The kingdom of heaven is within
Open up your funky mind and you can fly

Sumdeus
#48
Quote by Morphogenesis26

And I think I'm starting to see Steve's opinions on Deathcore, and Metal in general, a lot clearer now. I'm also going to jam to The Flesh And The Power It Holds.


Mind sharing it with the rest of us?

I might get it if it's not shrouded in his attitude
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#49
Quote by ChemicalFire
Mind sharing it with the rest of us?

I might get it if it's not shrouded in his attitude


Maybe when I'm done asking him questions.

I also didn't know he had an attitude about it. Always seemed fine to me until someone got really emotional about the subject.
#50
When ever he spoke about it, it was never to inform on the subject.


But to let everyone know how much better he was than them. He had an attitude about it.

At least that's how it always seemed to me.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
Last edited by ChemicalFire at Apr 27, 2013,
#51
Quote by Geldin
My issue with people saying this is that there really has been consistent growth in death metal and through its influence, but so many die-hard fans are so attached to early DM for whatever reason that they reject all of that out of hand.

It's akin to people insisting that good music died in *insert decade here*. There has been growth and expansion; they just don't like it.



But there are plenty of die hard fans of the genre (probably not WC ) who enjoy bands like Antediluvian, Mitochondrion, and even more mainstream stuff like Ulcerate, and all of those bands are currently pushing the boundaries of what death metal can be. They are all Progressive Death Metal bands, in much a truer sense than "they play death metal, with other shit in it," and while there are probably a good deal of trve kvlt guys who don't care for these bands (you're not wrong,) but generally those bands, and the "movement" that they represent, are fairly well respected, liked, or at least not hated.
On the other end of that, there are tons of people who insist that bands like Necrophagist or Fallujah are legitimate death metal bands, which just isn't really able to be substantiated, I don't think. Bands like this (including the vast majority of "Technical Death Metal" bands) are somewhat akin to Melodeath, both in terms of general riff structure, actually, and more importantly, in so much as they tend to actually be a watered down version of like fairly technical brutal death metal of Suffocation ilk, with any actual fire or aggression replaced by instrumental prowess. So these bands get shrugged off by die-hards more on the basis that they (i.e. Necrophagist, Origin, etc.) are to (Brutal) Death Metal (i.e. Suffocation, Nocturnus, even like Erosion era Gorguts, to an extent,) what Melodeath (Children of Bodom, In Flames) are to Melodic Death Metal (At the Gates, Intestine Baalism {however that shit is spelled.})

Ya dig?

And so but the crux of the deal is that bands like this are, in fact, progressing beyond what bands like Necrophagist originally did with their like melo-tech deff, by losing a lot of the wank, and actually y'know, trying to write songs, (I'll let everyone judge for themselves whether or not this band succeeds in that regard.) Furthermore, the group of bands to which Fallujah belongs, which I imagine would include bands like the Contortionist, maybe, (not my area of expertise, or whatever,) seem to be dead set on introducing some ambiance or like thematic elements, kinda occasionally, into the tech deff scene, which is cool, although it still doesn't really appeal to I guess most traditional DM fans. Point being, It isn't that they aren't progressive, in a sense, nor is it that they aren't "progressive death metal," (Whether or not they are DM at all isn't really relative here,) it's that they aren't progressing death metal itself, they're moving forward in and representative of their own little niche genre or subgenre or what the ****, which I guess basically is like modern technical death metal, or some shit of that nature. Which isn't really death metal, in the same way that melo-death isn't really melodic death metal.

And I personally don't consider modern technical death metal to have much at all in common with actual death metal, but I would venture to say that it is closer than deathcore, in that I'm fairly certain that most of the deathcore-like elements (mostly the chuggy shit) of their sound are ripped, or more accurately just inspired, sort of, from bands (Aeon, Malignancy, other Brutal or Slam acts,) that ripped these things from Suffocation in the first place. I mean, not that Malignancy or whoever chugs around a lot, but they all do that ****ing muted fourths chromatic descending thing with the pinch at the end, (everybody knows exactly what I'm talking about, don't play dumb.) So it's twice removed, kind of lost the chromaticism, now has melodic leads or whatever over the top, but at it's heart it's not I don't think really influenced, or even too closely related to deathcore, but it ends up being death-core-ish, somewhat. Anyway that whole last bit was kind of tangential....

Well I lost track of my point... sorry guys.

The real trip is that this band has a pretty ****ing killer lead guitar tone, I wish it was a bit more live, though.
Quote by Magero
I am a deathcore musician. I am above mere mortal minds.
#52
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
*music is all subjective so here's my definition of prog*


fuck off, kike
lstfm

I'm a Nazi, baby
I'm a Nazi, yes I am
I'm a Nazi schatzi, you know I'll fight for the Fatherland
#53
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I personally define it as something with a heavy death metal influence ... , interesting arrangements, occasional odd time signatures ... , and often with influences from other genres.

{OR}

a blend of heavy, guitar-oriented metal music enriched with compositional innovation and complex arrangements, usually expressed through diverse instrumentation and often ... with odd-time signatures.

I think your definitions are problematic. Progressive implies innovation and/or development. The song structures of Death Metal already largely eschewed pop/rock verse-chorus format in favor of a holistically constructed narrative style in which riff-salads were constructed to fit the compositional needs of songs / albums. The use of diverse instrumentation, odd time-signatures, and introducing outside influences are not inherently innovative and typically don't present any real development of the art. Usually you get Grindcore with a flute and techno-dance break-down (i.e. horse shit).

Innovation that has occurred in Death Metal has come from bands that either reexamine the means of achieving traditional compositional goals (e.g. Gorguts - Obscura, Demilich - Nespithe) or that expanded the structural possibilities of the already existing format (e.g. Morbid Angel - Blessed are the Sick, Suffocation - Effigy of the Forgotten, Incantation - Onward to Golgotha).

*Necrophagist etc.*

This may help provide context and clarity.

Quote by Geldin
My issue with people saying this is that there really has been consistent growth in death metal

Such as?

*edit:
Quote by ChemicalFire
When ever [Steve] spoke about it, it was never to inform on the subject. But to let everyone know how much better he was than them. He had an attitude about it. At least that's how it always seemed to me.

I don't think Steve has an attitude, but even if he does, consider ignoring his attitude / pretense and examine the merits of the points he makes. If you find his delivery too problematic, try summarizing the relevant info and pretend a flamboyant, candy-flipping homosexual is presenting it to you simply for consideration.
Last edited by NotFromANUS at Apr 27, 2013,
#54
Quote by NotFromANUS
I don't think Steve has an attitude, but even if he does, consider ignoring his attitude / pretense and examine the merits of the points he makes. If you find his delivery too problematic, try summarizing the relevant info and pretend a flamboyant, candy-flipping homosexual is presenting it to you simply for consideration.


Yeah, just do this. Pretend that everything Steve says is said in catburgs voice.

"Ohhh, helloooo therrrre. I'mmm Steveburgggg, and I loooove Morbid Aaaangel, mmm, yessss"

EDIT: I checked that article out and looked at other articles on that site. The one about motif's I looked at and listened to that Rotting Christ song. Oh my god...now that's what people should call Melodic Death Metal.

Oh, and my Phlebotomized album came today. I figured I'd mention that since Progressive Death Metal was mentioned.
Last edited by Morphogenesis26 at Apr 27, 2013,
#55
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Necrophagist, Carnefix, Obscura (though they might fit more into Technical DM), later Death, Origin.

I guess you could search Metal-Archives for more.

Literally none of those bands are progressive. At all.

And Death's composition/songwriting is anything but complex, especially in the later years. Seriously, every song follows the exact same format.

Just have to get that out there, as usual.

And actually Ambivalent's post nails it as well.
Quote by MoogleRancha
It's like Fenriz and J. Read

"I'm so happy to love metal and stuff"

"I AM metal"
Last edited by Burning_Angel at Apr 27, 2013,
#57
@Morpho

Gorod and Decapitated come to mind. They are not 90s death metal, but the influence is really clear and it's quite obvious that they're working with the same kind of mindset that a lot of early DM bands had.
#58
Quote by Morphogenesis26
I looked at and listened to that Rotting Christ song. Oh my god...now that's what people should call Melodic Death Metal.

Are you familiar with Greek Black Metal? If not check out:
Rotting Christ - Thy Mighty Contract, Non Serviam
Varathron - His Majesty at the Swamp
Necromantia - Scarlet Evil Witching Black

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
That article was mostly unrelated to the list I posted, as none of those band were Metalcore.

The article was relevant. If you can't see why, I'm not going to spell it out in agonizing detail.

I know you think you're being nice and helping me; you're coming off as condescending.

Boo-hoo. I know you think you're being thoughtful in your posts, but you're coming off as ignorant. If my polite condescension is problematic, I could always just be a dick. I try not to be dick when dealing with people. I've especially found on this forum that not being a dick tends to actually make discussions more productive and people more receptive to what I have to say. If that comes with the cost of condescension, so be it.
#59
Quote by NotFromANUS
Are you familiar with Greek Black Metal? If not check out:
Rotting Christ - Thy Mighty Contract, Non Serviam
Varathron - His Majesty at the Swamp
Necromantia - Scarlet Evil Witching Black


I've not listened to Varathron before, but I've heard Necromantia, not that album though.

Definitely check all them out. Really loving Non Serviam.
#61
Quote by NotFromANUS


That article shows either a lack of understanding or a wilful omission of the hardcore end of things. Using those four traits, you can bridge the gap from Botch to metalcore relatively easily, but there's a lot more to take into consideration before you can trace Rites of Spring to Meshuggah.
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
#62
Quote by Morphogenesis26
I've not listened to Varathron before, but I've heard Necromantia, not that album though.

Definitely check all them out. Really loving Non Serviam.

I suspect you'll really dig this shit. Shit's dope.

Quote by duncang
That article shows either a lack of understanding or a wilful omission of the hardcore end of things.

It's the latter. I agree it's incomplete and problematic in certain respects, but you agree it was relevant to the discussion, right?

Using those four traits, you can bridge the gap from Botch to metalcore relatively easily, but there's a lot more to take into consideration before you can trace Rites of Spring to Meshuggah.

Right, there's more to it than just those four traits. Even then, directly drawing a line from Rites of Spring to Meshuggah may be overcomplicated.

I think an important consideration to keep in mind is the concession made in the article:
Critics of the terms “metalcore” and “modern metal” correctly note that these terms are being used as a catch-all. That’s correct, but it’s only part of the story. These terms are being used to describe something that’s not new, but existed before death metal and black metal reached their modern form. It’s an alternate branch of metal’s evolution, upgraded with death metal technique.

The catch-all nature of the genres Metalcore, Deathcore, and what certain people here call Progressive (Death) Metal creates a kind of convolution. Yet, lumping seeming disparate acts together makes sense when you break things down to the essentials.

Agree? Disagree? Is it all just nonsense?
#63
It doesn't go far enough to be useful. There's not much to come from comparing a catch-all to a catch-all!
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
#64
Quote by NotFromANUS

I don't think Steve has an attitude, but even if he does, consider ignoring his attitude / pretense and examine the merits of the points he makes.


I have done this, but I can't help but feel that his reasons just don't click with me. I find it so incredibly narrow minded. The idea that if the music doesn't fit a very VERY strict concept of Motif then it isn't Death Metal just seems to feed into the idea of Metal Elitism.

It's less that I don't understand him... I just don't agree with him. I went through great pains to "get it". But I just can't agree.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
Last edited by ChemicalFire at Apr 28, 2013,
#65
Quote by ChemicalFire
The idea that if the music doesn't fit a very VERY strict concept of Motif then it isn't Death Metal just seems to feed into the idea of Metal Elitism.

This so much.

Fact is, people who say most modern Death Metal isn't Death Metal are ignoring the fact that the genre is moving forward. Yes, the riffs aren't exactly like Morbid Angel, Immolation, Death, Suffocation, and the rest of the '90s DM bands. But they're certainly inspired by those bands.
#66
Though sadly a lot of modern death metal bands suck. Which doesn't really help the argument.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#67
Quote by ChemicalFire
Though sadly a lot of modern death metal bands suck. Which doesn't really help the argument.

I agree.

Although, to be fair, there's tons of DM bands from the '90s that also sucked; we just don't bother with them because they sucked. People put on the nostalgia glasses and forget about things like that.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 28, 2013,
#68
Closest I got to enjoying a new Death Metal band was Pyrithion.


Even that wasn't that good.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#69
If a band plays in a style that is as different from, say, Incantation on Onward to Golgotha as that album is from, say, Kill 'em All, why is it so wrong to consider that said band is part of a different subgenre? Onward to Golgotha is clearly related to but more developed than Kill 'em All, but would you say that it is therefore a Thrash Metal album?

Even taking the assumption that bands like Necrophagist, Obscura and later Death significantly developed beyond normal Death Metal, that in itself opens up the possibility that they are something different.
Last edited by Hoodoo Man at Apr 28, 2013,
#70
Quote by Hoodoo Man
Even taking the assumption that bands like Necrophagist, Obscura and later Death significantly developed beyond normal Death Metal, that in itself opens up the possibility that they are something different.

Why? They're simply showing a certain amount of development within the genre. Why does everything in the genre have to reflect what was developed in the '90s? If everything remains largely static, then there's no point to it all.

People need to stop treating genres as prescriptive and start treating them as descriptive.

Really, bands like Obscura, Necrophagist, and later Death are just different flavors of DM, and certain people don't like the flavor. So, they're saying, "Oh, it's not Death Metal!"
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 28, 2013,
#71
This argument is getting silly and drawn out... can't we just enjoy the music:

(in b4 no because it's not Death Metal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WpQ8MlOoX0
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
#72
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Why? They're simply showing a certain amount of development within the genre. Why does everything in the genre have to reflect what was developed in the '90s? If everything remains largely static, then there's no point to it all.


Showing 'some' development doesn't make any of them progressive though. Also it's not that it has to stay like it was in the 90's, but the genre has a style and ideology and when you move away from it and tone it down it's not the same thing anymore.


anyways for something on topic - I actually saw this band live a couple years ago when I went to some tech death show with my shitty black metal band at the time. I remember them being pretty meh, and me being confused because the design of the shirts they were selling was trying really hard to look black metal
Free your mind and your ass will follow
The kingdom of heaven is within
Open up your funky mind and you can fly

Sumdeus
#73
Quote by crazysam23_Atax

People need to stop treating genres as prescriptive and start treating them as descriptive.


The argument being that it needs a more accurate description as 'death metal' doesn't really cut it
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
#74
Quote by duncang
The argument being that it needs a more accurate description as 'death metal' doesn't really cut it

I don't think I was making that argument.
#75
I know, they were
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
#76
Quote by duncang
I know, they were

Ah, ok. I just confused because I thought you were commenting on what I said.

Sorry, I didn't much sleep last night...
#77
Quote by duncang
There's not much to come from comparing a catch-all to a catch-all!

Unless those catch-alls have certain underlying fundamental links. Nobody is really arguing that these catch-alls are unrelated, only how they are.

Quote by ChemicalFire
I have done this, but I can't help but feel that his reasons just don't click with me. I find it so incredibly narrow minded. The idea that if the music doesn't fit a very VERY strict concept of Motif then it isn't Death Metal just seems to feed into the idea of Metal Elitism.

It's less that I don't understand him... I just don't agree with him. I went through great pains to "get it". But I just can't agree.

I can't agree with your characterization of his reasoning, other than that it is elitist.

Quote by ChemicalFire
This argument is getting silly and drawn out... can't we just enjoy the music:

I attempted to end this line of discussion in my second post. As to what extent I can enjoy the music, that was addressed in my first post (which was so uncontroversial Magero actually approved of it).
#78
Quote by NotFromANUS
Unless those catch-alls have certain underlying fundamental links.


I don't think they are fundamental, I think they're elements that tie Botch to The Dillinger Escape Plan but not Fugazi to The Haunted. That emphasises its redundancy, no?
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
#80
Quote by NotFromANUS

I attempted to end this line of discussion in my second post. As to what extent I can enjoy the music, that was addressed in my first post (which was so uncontroversial Magero actually approved of it).

I just don't see the big deal in making a fuss over the literals of the genre. I can agree that from all compositional standpoints, it's a different off-shoot. Using the term "progressive death metal" was simply because it's almost become an aesthetic definition in of itself. Duncan has gone to great lengths to explain why "progressive metal" isn't a real genre, because it requires a better qualifier, and this is sort of the same deal for me. It may not be a literal, accurate description of the sound, but it's come to sort of "mean what it means". I call Born of Osiris "progressive deathcore", that doesn't mean I think they're actually progressing the genre or "progressive" in any sense other than "prog" being used to mean bands with keyboards, odd time signatures and slightly out of character for the genre riff styling from time to time. The irony is not lost on me that this tends to result in 90 bands who all use the exact same sound, while I'm perfectly happy to call them all prog deathcore.

This is why typing everything while doing "finger quotes" is the best way of dealing with it. Ironic detachment solves everything, nothing means anything anymore!


Also, yeah, so, Fallujah are awesome. Discuss/don't.