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#41
Quote by macashmack
I thought TS stood for Thread Starter.
Actually, it might depend on the software. In forum context, "thread" and "topic" are mostly interchangeable. But "thread"(*), is a term hijacked from computer parlance designating the goings on of an information stream through the CPU. This is evidenced by Intel's "Hyperthreading" keyword, which describes multiple data streams flowing through the same physical CPU core.

"Xenforo", which is a different program from the "Vbulletin", indicates the person who started the, "conversation", as "topic starter", and continues to label that person's post as such, throughout the course of the "discussion".

In any event, these two software houses settled some lawsuit recently, and if you want that whole can of worms for lunch today, I could post you a bunch of links.

The nice thing is, both "thread" and "topic" both start with the same letter. So, the both of us can either continue to use both terms and be correct in that, or continue to type and trifle about it for an indeterminate period of time during our lifetimes...

(*) Given the hostile and litigious environment of modern corporate existence, I'm surprised that "Coates and Clark", hasn't sued a multitude of IT companies, as their product is "thread", a term which has been assimilated into the colloquial, as a generic term for a product whose principle use is to fasten two pieces of cloth together...
Last edited by Captaincranky at May 5, 2013,
#42
Quote by Captaincranky
Last example, The Who, "Go to the Mirror" (From Tommy). The song is a basic march/anthem in E major; E//// B// A/ /, But when he goes to the relative minor (C#m > G#m) he winds up making the minor part of the progression positively uplifting. .


Can you tell me more about using relative minor to make a 2nd progression for a song?
This is a huge step I've been missing.

In this Who example, you first have key of E and a E B A (1 5 4). Then the progression changes to C#m and G#m. I understand that the relative minor of E is C#m. This means E major shares the same notes as C#m. So, as a "key change", you can now harmonize the notes of C#m to create your 2nd progression? I'd like to try this. What interval defines the minor scale? (major = W W H W W W H) The E major progression can choose from E F#m G#m A B C#m D#m(dim) E. How do I do this for the C#m part?

I know this is a huge step in moving forward in songwriting. Thanks.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 5, 2013,
#43
Quote by MissingSomethin
Can you tell me more about using relative minor to make a 2nd progression for a song?
This is a huge step I've been missing.

In this Who example, you first have key of E and a E B A (1 5 4). Then the progression changes to C#m and G#m. I understand that the relative minor of E is C#m. This means E major shares the same notes as C#m. So, as a "key change", you can now harmonize the notes of C#m to create your 2nd progression? I'd like to try this. What interval defines the minor scale? (major = W W H W W W H) The E major progression can choose from E F#m G#m A B C#m D#m(dim) E. How do I do this for the C#m part?

I know this is a huge step in moving forward in songwriting. Thanks.

E major scale has the same notes as C# minor scale. So the diatonic chords are the same as in E major. You just "start" from C#m instead of E major.

But don't just choose your chords from diatonic chords. Try to listen to the sounds. You don't make music just by choosing some random diatonic chords and notes, you want them to sound like you want your music to sound like. Learn the sound of every chord in a key and you can use them the way you want to use them. You can also use non-diatonic chords, you aren't limited to use only 7 different chords in a key.

You need to learn about chord functions. For example every dominant (V) chord sounds like a dominant chord. They have similar function in a key. (For example G major in C major sounds the same as E major in A major or B major in E major.)

To make the song sound like it's in a minor key, it needs to resolve to a minor chord. And resolving to something is about sound. Music is all about sound. You need to learn how everything sounds like. You don't write songs by randomly choosing notes and chords. You need to know the sound to write good songs.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#44
^^^ Good advice! It should also be noted that if you are in the key of E, then start a progression starting on C#m, there's a very real possibility the will be no key change at all.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#45
Yes, E BA are in E major and so are C#m G#m. So, it's all just E, and a 2nd part can sound minor by rooting on that minor chord as you choose a new set of chords to play, while still choosing from the 7 of E major.

But, I understand what MaggaraMarine is saying. that will just take many years to get there.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
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#46
Here's another song to ponder the excursion to the relative minor, Martina McBride's, "Independence Day": http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/martina_mcbride/independence_day_ver2_crd.htm

Transpose the tab to A major, and don't use a capo. The chorus presents the best vi > IV change ever, (F#m to D major open).

Again, the relative minor to A (F# minor) is positively uplifting(*), in the aftermath of a really fed up woman setting fire to her house with her drunken husband inside.

Although I'm pretty sure the husband would argue, "deceptively uplifting".

(Playing this thing in A, (the key on the recording), also provides the opportunity to slam home the V chord, in this case, E major open). It's cathartic, I tell you, positively cathartic.

If country music is ordinarily, "3 chords and the truth", in this instance it becomes, "4 chords and a shitload of rage"!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VPpAZ9_qAw
Last edited by Captaincranky at May 17, 2013,
#47
I don't believe your struggle is merely an issue of minor tonality, or major tonality for that matter. Both tonal aspects are generated from the same diatonic scale so its completely absurd to suggest you have become annexed by one and mysteriously remain oblivious of functioning with the other . It seems more likely you are experiencing the phenomenon of static tonality. Regardless of being in minor or major , this generally happens intentionally or not by avoiding the dominant function or the existence of only tonic function .
To quote your statement of thinking "it will take many years to get there" this will surely be an inevitable consequence of adhering to the formalized music theory you've adapted . For example ,from my own personal experience , having to conceptualize harmony the way you and many other commoners do is terribly unwieldy as apposed to MaggarMarines emphasis of applying functional harmony via the Tonic,Subdominant, and Dominant .After all this is how any song of a dynamic melody is manifested , so now consider this ; conceiving the extrapolation of harmony dictated by Roman Numerals or the Alphabet is always a hindrance for any performer and rather be avoided unless absolutely necessary , yet "functional harmony" is a natural phenomenon that we all experience within music regardless of our intellectual state of mind . .

So then, regarding your quirky conundrum or dilemma with tonality , first lets make sure you fully wrap your mind around the spectrum of a chord with its parallel aspects .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_parallel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_key#Parallel_chord .
Now reward yourself the tonal dynamics playing the parallels of either major quality, minor quality , or mixed quality for any chord of your preference .
There's an itty bitty bit more to generating the chords quality or function when voice leading but since you're only concerned with pop genres lets get on with more advise.
Grab any tonic, subdominant ,and dominant trio and while embracing their existence begin applying any of the parallel options to either chord . Be sure you take advantage of this without the burden of classifying the parallels as being anything other than variant qualities or possible functions of the tonic, subdominant,or dominant applied to.
In fact go ahead and aspire to completely abandon the obscure rigidity of Roman Numerals or the Alphabet. Its clearly only proved to be a burden for you anyhow or you wouldn't have ended up making this thread after twenty years of playing . I'm sure it would provide you a rather "cathartic" experience .
Alright well besides playing and studying new songs , hopefully this will liberate your poor wretched soul and spare us all from any further decadence .
Last edited by TheJasbo at May 18, 2013,
#48
Cranky, I can barely even HEAR the change you're gushing on about.
I'm assuming you mean this:

Em C G
And when time ran out, there was no one about
On Independence Day
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
#49
Quote by MissingSomethin
Cranky, I can barely even HEAR the change you're gushing on about.
I'm assuming you mean this:

Em C G
And when time ran out, there was no one about
On Independence Day


Exactly MissingSomething, this is the phenomenon of static tonality. If you look into the parallels i gave you advise about you will realize Crankys example can be perceived as only being variant aspects of the same chord. Hence the lack of sensing any distinction of chords in the song , just a constant "gushing" on of the same static sound .
Last edited by TheJasbo at May 18, 2013,
#50
Quote by MissingSomethin
Cranky, I can barely even HEAR the change you're gushing on about.
I'm assuming you mean this:

Em C G
And when time ran out, there was no one about
On Independence Day
No, in the chorus, here:
........................E...............................F#m
Let freedom ring, let the white dove sing
............D .......................... A .............E
Let the whole world know that today is a day...

We're going to play in A major. So that makes the change F#m, (barre @ 2nd) to D major open. Key of G makes the whole thing insipid.

There only one note difference between the 2 chords anyway. F#m = F#, A, C#. D major = D, F#, A! The C# in the F#m chord is the leading tone for the D major. A resolution within a resolution. It isn't altogether the change itself, as much as the chord voices.

Ignore the key of G nonsense for that song. Play it in A, as loud as you can
Last edited by Captaincranky at May 18, 2013,
#51
What is the point of transposing this thing into A?
Why add another layer of misdirection into something that is already challenging enough?
Won't I get the same point just playing the damn thing in G? The same resolutions, etc.
Why do people insist on making things more complicated than they have to be????
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
#52
Quote by TheJasbo
Exactly MissingSomething, this is the phenomenon of static tonality. If you look into the parallels i gave you advise about you will realize Crankys example can be perceived as only being variant aspects of the same chord. Hence the lack of sensing any distinction of chords in the song , just a constant "gushing" on of the same static sound .


Perhaps. Or, maybe they are just very inconsequential in this particular mix. Take those same chords in a Tom Petty song, and make them prominent, and I doubt they will all sound like one chord.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
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Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 18, 2013,
#53
Quote by TheJasbo
Exactly MissingSomething, this is the phenomenon of static tonality. If you look into the parallels i gave you advise about you will realize Crankys example can be perceived as only being variant aspects of the same chord. Hence the lack of sensing any distinction of chords in the song , just a constant "gushing" on of the same static sound .


Those 2 wiki links are absolute trash if you don not already know what they mean. Otherwise, it is nonsensical gibberish with no practical translation. Honestly, your entire post came off as a troll. I'm assuming you used some "gibberish generator" to paste it from. If you can explain in English, feel free. Tabs preferred to minimize the bullshit speak.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 18, 2013,
#54
Quote by MissingSomethin
What is the point of transposing this thing into A?
Why add another layer of misdirection into something that is already challenging enough?
Won't I get the same point just playing the damn thing in G? The same resolutions, etc.
Why do people insist on making things more complicated than they have to be????


Yeah why so much "misdirection" . This is why using the Roman Numeral or Alphabet model is cumbersome and inferior when attempting to progress with functional harmony.
#55
Quote by Captaincranky
No, in the chorus, here:
........................E...............................F#m
Let freedom ring, let the white dove sing
............D .......................... A .............E
Let the whole world know that today is a day...

We're going to play in A major. So that makes the change F#m, (barre @ 2nd) to D major open. Key of G makes the whole thing insipid.

There only one note difference between the 2 chords anyway. F#m = F#, A, C#. D major = D, F#, A! The C# in the F#m chord is the leading tone for the D major. A resolution within a resolution. It isn't altogether the change itself, as much as the chord voices.

Ignore the key of G nonsense for that song. Play it in A, as loud as you can


I am obviously being trolled here. Good work. I'm out!

What does the key matter, if your talking chord changes. Same relationships.


Terrible generic song, as well.
But, I don't even hear guitars in that section.
I find nothing interesting about F#m to D, when I play it

The D A E is what's interesting, and is the basis for Petty's brilliant legendary riff in "You Wreck Me". C#m to A in "Peace of mind" is also way more cathartic
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 18, 2013,
#56
Quote by MissingSomethin
Those 2 wiki links are absolute trash if you don not already know what they mean. Otherwise, it is nonsensical gibberish with no practical translation. Honestly, your entire post came off as a troll. I'm assuming you used some "gibberish generator" to paste it from. If you can explain in English, feel free. Tabs preferred to minimize the bullshit speak.


Pardon MissingSomething, I thought you already had developed the general concept of applying heptatonia prima " diatonic scale "
If the links about parallel harmony are too much to grasp for now then I advise you take the time to study diatonic function first .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_function

Hope this proves to be of viable substance for your musical quest .
Last edited by TheJasbo at May 18, 2013,
#57
Please go away.
Next time you troll, try using words from a dictionary.
Must more effective.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
#58
Quote by MissingSomethin
What is the point of transposing this thing into A?
Why add another layer of misdirection into something that is already challenging enough?
Very simply, the "V" chord of G, is D major. The "V" chord of A major is E major. If you can't get your head around the difference in impact between those two chords played open on the guitar, then I guess there is no point.
Quote by MissingSomethin
Won't I get the same point just playing the damn thing in G? The same resolutions, etc.
No, because the bass line descends from F#m @ 2nd fret to D major. You should hear more a a difference in those chords when you move the bass line two full steps down. That doesn't happen playing in G.
Quote by MissingSomethin
Why do people insist on making things more complicated than they have to be????
I'm not trying to complicate anything. The tab is wrong, or at least it's wrong for the electric rhythm guitar.

There's a "transpose" function on the tab pages anyway.

No Wiki links, no gibberish from me. The song doesn't realize its full impact, until you play it in A. That's the nature of those chord voices, and the nature of the guitar's tuning.

If you'd like to hear what difference a key can make here, try Pink Floyd's "Time" in G: http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/p/pink_floyd/time_crd.htm
Last edited by Captaincranky at May 18, 2013,
#59
Give the guy a damn break, he just wants to better himself. TS you have stated that you know how to harmonize a major scale/ thus you know minor chords, and how to use them. Look up The Beatles - Help. This song is fairly easy and is a perfect example seeing how it starts off on a Bm chord but is in the key of A. The verse progression is I - iv - vi -V or something along them lines, i havent played it in a long time. But everything you will experience in this song should be old news to you. I believe you are having a tougher time establishing minor key tonality. This would be a song where the tonic, i , has a minor quality. Which means, when harmonizing all the chords of that key, they willl have different qualitys than your harmonized major. An example of this would be something like Achilles Last Stand by Led Zeppelin if i remember correctly, ill check later
#60
Help? Are you serious? This is yet another a terrible example to use, as the guitars are buried behind the vocals and drums and prominent bass line. Why on earth would you try to teach a concept using a song that basically has no guitars in it (the only guitar easily heard is the descending lick)


I'm sorry, but I don't hear I - iv - vi -V in this song.
I played (A Dm F#m E) on my guitar, and there is zero resemblance to this song.

This is a really weird forum.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 19, 2013,
#61
I agree with establishing minor tonality. When I harmonized the Dorian mode, and the 1 chord was minor, that was the first time in my life I came up with a decent sounding progression that included a minor chord, and sounded natral. And that's because it was the i chord. Like Dm C G.

When I start in 1 major, throwing in a minor chord always sounded forced and fake.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
#62
Quote by MissingSomethin
Help? Are you serious? This is yet another a terrible example to use, as the guitars are buried behind the vocals and drums and prominent bass line. Why on earth would you try to teach a concept using a song that basically has no guitars in it (the only guitar easily heard is the descending lick)


I'm sorry, but I don't hear I - iv - vi -V in this song.
I played (A Dm F#m E) on my guitar, and there is zero resemblance to this song.

This is a really weird forum.

You need to sort yer fucking ears out, buddy.
Quote by MissingSomethin
This is a really weird forum.

Fuck off, then.
Last edited by mdc at May 19, 2013,
#63
Quote by MissingSomethin
I am obviously being trolled here. Good work. I'm out!
Promises, promises....

Have you noticed that everybody who has participated in this topic is a troll but YOU? That speaks volumes.
#64
If you refuse to play minor chords you will die in a plane crash. You have been warned.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#65
Quote by Hydra150
If you refuse to play minor chords you will die in a plane crash. You have been warned.
So you're saying that Buddy Holly never used minor chords?
#66
Buddy Holly was such a plane crash hipster, doing it before it was cool. I mean, just look at those glasses.
I'm talking about December 10, 1967.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#68
Quote by MissingSomethin
I agree with establishing minor tonality. When I harmonized the Dorian mode, and the 1 chord was minor, that was the first time in my life I came up with a decent sounding progression that included a minor chord, and sounded natral. And that's because it was the i chord. Like Dm C G.

When I start in 1 major, throwing in a minor chord always sounded forced and fake.

If you're going to play modally, you might want to try using vamps and embellishments. A "progression" like that could find it's way back to the parent scale.

But regarding using minor chords; they are an important part of playing in any tonality, and although not every song has to include them, you're definetly missing out by not using them for 20 years. There are many different functions in which a minor chord, whether diatonic or not, may be used to great effect.

EDIT: As for finding opportunities for incorporating minor chords, you can start by using diatonic chords like you said, half of them will be minor. Incorporating the relative minor is the easiest way. In a major setting, using a minor subdominant can be very effecting following a major subdominant, or on its own. These are just some techniques that come to mind. You can use any chords you want, just always look for a way to incorporate it using something like secondary dominants, etc.
Last edited by one vision at May 19, 2013,
#70
Quote by MissingSomethin
Help? Are you serious? This is yet another a terrible example to use, as the guitars are buried behind the vocals and drums and prominent bass line. Why on earth would you try to teach a concept using a song that basically has no guitars in it (the only guitar easily heard is the descending lick)


I'm sorry, but I don't hear I - iv - vi -V in this song.
I played (A Dm F#m E) on my guitar, and there is zero resemblance to this song.

This is a really weird forum.


Since addressing Functional Harmony is considered "gibberish " for you , I then advise to associate yourself with the structure of song found in any variety of regional old style music , or any song of similar caliber prior to the homogenization of music by mainstream pop radio . Radio music genres are generally too contaminated by abstract egoism and electronic ornamentation preventing the musician from progressing with the fundamental dynamics of harmony .

Being this thread is about minor tonality I hereby propose that you listen to the following songs that I found via Youtube and possibly consider a few of them being worthy of aiding you in your quest of functioning in the minor tonic .
traditionals: A Pirates life for me , Where did you sleep last night,House of the rising sun,Drunken
Sailor , Erie Canal, Follow the drinking Gourd
Shady Grove ,Tennessee Stud , Moody River , by Doc Watson
Ramblin Man”, Kawliga the Wooden Indian , and Wayfarying Stranger by Hank Williams Sr.
Little Red Riding Hood, Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs
Stray Cat Strutt, The Stray Cats

If anyone needs guidance finding suitable chords for any of these songs then give me a shout.
Last edited by TheJasbo at May 20, 2013,
#71
Quote by TheJasbo
If anyone needs guidance finding suitable chords for any of these songs then give me a shout.
I have to say I admire your perseverance, but sometimes you just need to take "troll" for an answer.

When somebody tells you they can't here any guitar in the intro to The Beatles "Help", they're yanking your chain, or tone deaf, and it's probably time to remove your subscription to this thread.

Which is exactly what I intend to do, pending the next notification.

BTW "The House of the Rising Sun" is gold for the V7 > i resolution. It's prominent in Joan Baez, "Diamonds and Rust" also. If you want to hear more of that harmonic minor progression, dial up The Stones, "Paint it Black". They both meet your criterion for acoustic styled / guitar very prominent examples.
Last edited by Captaincranky at May 20, 2013,
#73
Quote by MopMaster
Haven't read the whole thread so I might be saying something that's already been mentioned, but V7-i is a nice little 2-chord progression to get the feeling of minor tonality.
Yeah I beat you to it by about 30 seconds. No harm in some more positive reinforcement to the concept though..
#74
Quote by Captaincranky
Yeah I beat you to it by about 30 seconds. No harm in some more positive reinforcement to the concept though..


Yeah the Dominant 7 is essential "gold" for resolving to any tonic ,as is its counterpart the minor Subdominant 6. But, the TS only accuses one of talking " gibberish" when addressing Functional Harmony ; so instead we suggested songs .
Last edited by TheJasbo at May 20, 2013,
#75
ii-V-I, ii-V-I, ii-V-I. Over and over again in popular music. For example you can play Am, D, G and have a nice little chord progression to strum and sing over. Anyways, I tend to think in polyphony rather than homophony so the counterpoint I come up with hits a lot of minor chords and tones naturally since I'm improvising using counterpoint. (I butcher the rules all the time though.) If you start thinking in voices rather than chords you'll probably will find yourself using a lot more minor ideas than you originally thought.

Furthermore, you have to recognize that 2 notes played simultaneously (while usually called an interval) can be a legitimate chord voicing because it still functions like the original chord you are playing due to linear playing and the natural overtone series that exists when a note is played. For example, a bud powell voicing, as it is called in jazz, consists only of the root and 7th of the chord, with the root occupying the bass. Also, in 2 part counterpoint functional harmony still exists due to the location of the note in time. For example, you can take a bach invention and analyze it with functional harmony because it is tonal and has a key center (therefore it has functional harmony, despite the absence of a third or 4th note.) All of this is to say that you begin minor harmony by the use of minor harmonic intervals and their implied/actualized chordal function. (I can actually argue that single tones, when played in a particular order, functions as chords due to the overtone series, but theory like that tends to get very complex.)

Ultimately, if you want to start utilizing more minor ideas into your playing you first need to, A. listen to more music that incorporates minor chords and minor keys. (jazz is a start.) B. you need to begin to transcribe and learn by ear songs that incorporate minor ideas. and C. when you actually get good you can begin to ditch functional tonal harmony that distinguishes keys and begin to compose and improvise in a way that is liberated from the bounds of traditional tonality.
#77
I think it’s time for a vote: who’s the most pretentious, arrogant guitar player in this thread?

I vote me: I loving criticizing others to make myself feel better. I know I should stop but it’s so fun to be a troll.

All these players posting their stupid questions, I don’t have time for their bull****.

I have other threads to be patrolling people! I’m very busy!
#78
Quote by Sti Eci Tehpor
I think it’s time for a vote: who’s the most pretentious, arrogant guitar player in this thread?

I vote me: I loving criticizing others to make myself feel better. I know I should stop but it’s so fun to be a troll.

All these players posting their stupid questions, I don’t have time for their bull****.
I have other threads to be patrolling people! I’m very busy!
You have my vote! Now f*** off, and attend to your other duties....
#79
wow i honestly though Sti Eci Tehpor was just captaincranky with a name change. same join date and everything
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#80
Quote by one vision
EDIT: As for finding opportunities for incorporating minor chords, you can start by using diatonic chords like you said, half of them will be minor. Incorporating the relative minor is the easiest way. In a major setting, using a minor subdominant can be very effecting following a major subdominant, or on its own. These are just some techniques that come to mind. You can use any chords you want, just always look for a way to incorporate it using something like secondary dominants, etc.


Can we drop the fancy words?

In a major setting, using a minor subdominant can be very effecting following a major subdominant, or on its own.

just means...

In a major setting, using a minor IV can be very effecting following a major IV, or on its own.


What are "secondary dominants" ?
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
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