Page 4 of 5
#121
Quote by Tom 1.0
You know people who buy good guitars dont need to go to such extremes lengths to justify their purchase.


Like lying about them being hand-made, when they're not?
#122
Well I don't know about Agile, but this Schecter Hellraiser I have here.....

Oh, is this not that thread?
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#123
Quote by Robbgnarly
What facts? it is all you opinion vs others opinions.



You think its my OPINION that Gibson uses CNC's in the production of their guitars? You think that video from their factory is fake?

Very interesting.

Here's another "opinion", from a Gibson engineer:
Instrument Construction:
"One way that Gibson keeps quality high for its instruments and increases production is through the use of CAD/CAM software. Kenny Tucker, manufacturing engineer from Gibson Guitar Company said, 'We have six CNC wood routers in the Nashville plant. We do a lot of our component parts for the instrument bodies that are routed out on this equipment.' To make sure that the routers are precise, Gibson uses Mastercam CAD/CAM software to program them."

http://www.mastercam.com/successstories/woodworking/articles5.aspx

"To duplicate the same profile and contour of Gibson’s classic Les Paul carved-top electric guitar, Tucker said they took a body of an older one, scanned it, and duplicated the surface with their new router. Then they took those scanned points and made a 3D rendering of the surface. Using a six-inch ball-nose endmill on the CNC router, they carved the top of their new Les Pauls and got them as close as possible before they’re finished by hand using a sanding machine.

'With the help of Mastercam, we get the guitar tops carved as closely as possible, then we turn them over to the artists, which are the hand sanders and the craftsmen. Now the guitars have less variance than before, and the craftsmen can work their magic at this point with much less effort,' mentioned Tucker.

'One of the things with Gibson is that their guitars are often historical pieces. You can’t just come in and change something, because the artists that are out there playing them would find it in a heartbeat. So, you have to try and maintain the curves and feel of the guitar and the necks. Players can just pick up a guitar, look at it, and see that something’s been changed,' explained Tucker.

Mastercam is used for solid bodies, hollow bodies, and even acoustic guitars and mandolins. They also use it to develop the fixtures and tooling used for producing the instruments."
Last edited by peskypesky at May 13, 2013,
#124
I was not referring to the CNC statement, but the this is better than that opinions.

I really have not seen the need for justification of owning a guitar in a while like is being portrayed in this thread.

My favorite is I can't remember 1 post that has said Agile are bad at all, can you.

If you like your guitar that is the main thing.
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#125
Quote by dementiacaptain
Well I don't know about Agile, but this Schecter Hellraiser I have here.....

Oh, is this not that thread?

I'm not certain, but aren't Schecters and LTDs made in the same factory as Agile? I will say that most Korean guitars I pick up feel good and have a certain level of quality, above the cheaper imports. However, I think most Japanese imports and USA-made guitars beat them out, if only slightly at times.

All this Agile VS Gibson stuff is old and never goes anywhere. And no one ever seems to mention how kick-ass some Gibson pickups are(or maybe I missed it).
#126
Quote by W4RP1G

All this Agile VS Gibson stuff is old and never goes anywhere.


Well, then its a good think Kraken guitars have started some buzz on guitar forums in the past few weeks. Korean-made, with a horn that is closer to a Gibson, and getting lots of very positive reviews from owners.

Quote by W4RP1G
I'm not certain, but aren't Schecters and LTDs made in the same factory as Agile? I will say that most Korean guitars I pick up feel good and have a certain level of quality, above the cheaper imports.


Just to add to the fun, there are some major similarities between the Agiles and the Krakens...and get this, a few purchasers of Krakens recieved their guitars in Agile-labelled boxes!
Last edited by peskypesky at May 14, 2013,
#127
Quote by peskypesky
Like lying about them being hand-made, when they're not?



All I know is my Les Paul is completely hand made.

1977 Burny FLG70
2004 EBMM JP6
2016 SE Holcolmb
#128
Quote by Tom 1.0
All I know is my Les Paul is completely hand made.



Not unless you're counting the guy pushing the button on the profiler or CNC machine as 'hand made'..."poke:
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#129
If you want your Agile to sound anywhere near as good as a Gibson, you need to swap out the pickups. With Gibson, you get a good-sounding guitar by default.

I don't understand why these Agile users have to try so hard to justify why their $400 guitars are so much better than the real thing they copy. People who do that are insecure, and worse still, it's about something that is so trivial and pathetic in the grand scheme of being a musician.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at May 14, 2013,
#130
Quote by Arby911
Not unless you're counting the guy pushing the button on the profiler or CNC machine as 'hand made'..."poke:



Pre-CNC

1977 Burny FLG70
2004 EBMM JP6
2016 SE Holcolmb
#131
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
If you want your Agile to sound anywhere near as good as a Gibson, you need to swap out the pickups. With Gibson, you get a good-sounding guitar by default.


Given that 'good sounding' is subjective, how do we measure that? Seems to me a lot of Gibby owners (me among them) swap pickups...

The simple, incontrovertible fact is that if we buy a Gibson, we pay a certain premium for the name on the headstock.

I'm ok with that. But I'm not going to pretend that it makes the guitar play, or sound, any better.

I'm not familiar with Agile's instruments, but I've generally heard pretty good things about them. The Agile supporters here, for all their arrogance, have some very valid points.

But the Agile instruments, regardless of quality, won't ever say Gibson on the headstock, and there's value in that.

With modern machinery, it's getting cheaper every day to build quality instruments, and 'vintage' is often not what it's cracked up to be. I've seen a few great vintage instruments. I've also seen many that were crap. What people tend to forget is that the crap ones have been consigned over time to the scrap heap and only the good ones remain, leading some people to falsely believe that all the instruments of a given era were that good.

They weren't.

No, Agile is not Gibson. Gibson of today isn't Gibson of 20,30 or 40 years ago either.

Arguing which is 'better' based on so many subjective factors is incredibly childish.

(And no, wood 'quality' isn't an objective factor for electric guitars, since any alleged tonal response is entirely subjective and visuals even more so.)

Y'all need to move on.

I buy guitars as the mood strikes me, and my current favorite for playing is a Sterling SUB Silo3 that I paid $149 for!

Come at me...


Quote by Tom 1.0
Pre-CNC



But not pre-profiling machine...I was most specific in my jab!!
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at May 14, 2013,
#132
Quote by Arby911
Given that 'good sounding' is subjective, how do we measure that? Seems to me a lot of Gibby owners (me among them) swap pickups...

The simple, incontrovertible fact is that if we buy a Gibson, we pay a certain premium for the name on the headstock.

I'm ok with that. But I'm not going to pretend that it makes the guitar play, or sound, any better.

I'm not either. I like the idea of owning a guitar with a famous name on the headstock, but I also like how awesome the guitar looks, sounds and plays. That for me justifies paying for it. I didn't have to spend $1400 to get a decent guitar, but I did because I could. For the same reason that people spend a lot of money to go to the Bahamas or something. They could get a nice tan and a nice view by reading about the Bahamas on a sunbed, but they chose the more costly alternative because they could.

In the subjective world of guitars, sometimes buying into the premium of the brand is something people want. It might not make the guitar objectively better, but outside of a guitar that plays well, is nicely set up and has hardware that won't break in 10 mins, what is objective fact?

I'm not familiar with Agile's instruments, but I've generally heard pretty good things about them. The Agile supporters here, for all their arrogance, have some very valid points.

But the Agile instruments, regardless of quality, won't ever say Gibson on the headstock, and there's value in that.

With modern machinery, it's getting cheaper every day to build quality instruments, and 'vintage' is often not what it's cracked up to be. I've seen a few great vintage instruments. I've also seen many that were crap. What people tend to forget is that the crap ones have been consigned over time to the scrap heap and only the good ones remain, leading some people to falsely believe that all the instruments of a given era were that good.

They weren't.

No, Agile is not Gibson. Gibson of today isn't Gibson of 20,30 or 40 years ago either.

Arguing which is 'better' based on so many subjective factors is incredibly childish.

(And no, wood 'quality' isn't an objective factor for electric guitars, since any alleged tonal response is entirely subjective and visuals even more so.)

Y'all need to move on.

I buy guitars as the mood strikes me, and my current favorite for playing is a Sterling SUB Silo3 that I paid $149 for!

Come at me...

Just as long as you're happy dude. But if you're so happy to assert that Gibson is inferior to cheap Korean stuff, then why do you own such expensive guitars?
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at May 14, 2013,
#133
Quote by Arby911


But not pre-profiling machine...I was most specific in my jab!!



1977 Burny FLG70
2004 EBMM JP6
2016 SE Holcolmb
#134
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE


But if you're so happy to assert that Gibson is inferior to cheap Korean stuff, then why do you own such expensive guitars?


If you'll point me to where I've done that, I'll be happy to explain it to you.

I'll wait.......


But....if you can't find that particular passage, I'd respectfully suggest you take that claim, fold it till it's all square corners and shove it up your ass.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#135
You did imply it though. Especially when you mentioned your $149 guitar being your favorite.

And you don't need to post douchy remarks either.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at May 14, 2013,
#136
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
You did imply it though.

And you don't need to post douchy remarks either.


No, I didn't. In point of fact I very specifically refused any comment on Gibson's quality. The subject simply isn't addressed, implicit or otherwise, because it's immaterial to the thrust of my post.

I agree that I don't HAVE to post them, but when someone makes up a strawman to call me out with, I feel it a moral imperative.

I mentioned the $149 guitar as my current favorite player yes, but only to illustrate how far the industry has come, not to compare it to any other brand. It's not got the visual appeal or name recognition of others I own, but it plays VERY well.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at May 14, 2013,
#137
You don't have to explicitly say something to advocate it.

Come on, you did imply the opposing view.
my current favorite for playing is a Sterling SUB Silo3 that I paid $149 for!


Unless you're actually advocating that a subjective motive is the reason people buy expensive guitars (Ie you're agreeing with me), then you are advocating that people should just buy cheaper guitars and that anyone who doesn't is wasting their money.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at May 14, 2013,
#138
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
You don't have to explicitly say something to advocate it.

Come on, you did imply the opposing view.


Sorry, but no. The sole point of my post was to illustrate that new manufacturing techniques are being used to build instruments of amazing quality for quite a low price. I also explained one of the reasons why I believe Gibson is valued as it is, and agreed with that as well.

I don't expect Gibson to make a $149 guitar, because it would devalue the brand and all the guitars they have made up to that point, regardless of the instrument quality itself. I'd be disappointed if they did.

If that's not what you got from it then I'll take a portion of the blame for presenting it poorly, as long as you'll concede that you may be a victim of personal bias in seeing what you wanted to see?

As to your edit above, we ARE agreeing! I fully support your rationale for choosing a Gibson, having done it myself more than a few times.

But I also support others in NOT making that choice, and in thinking that for what THEY chose to place value in that they got a great deal...

To YOU the Gibson is a superior instrument, and you are right.
To THEM it's not, and they are right.

How can you both be right? Because you're measuring with different yardsticks...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at May 14, 2013,
#139
Ok, then i guess i was jumping the shark a little.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
#140
Quote by Robbgnarly
Wow aren't you just the coolest, most knowledgeable Agile connoisseur the world has ever seen.

And nice use of name dropping also


Thank yew. I try.
Always nice to know it's appreciated <G>.
#141
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
If you want your Agile to sound anywhere near as good as a Gibson, you need to swap out the pickups. With Gibson, you get a good-sounding guitar by default.


No. You're from the UK and you've never run into an Agile, obviously. But more importantly, pickups are definitely a personal taste issue. That's why there are a kajillion pickup winders out there making replacements for Gibsons and for every other humbucking-equipped guitar on the planet because people swap them out. Nothing special about Gibson pickups, sorry. That said, I usually don't swap out pickups on guitars; I usually pick a guitar for the way it sounds from the get-go. On both the Axcess and the Agile custom, I tossed the Burstbuckers and installed a hot '57 in the bridge and a Fast Track II (DiMarzio) in the neck. I've left the pickups alone on the other two Agiles and on every other Gibson I own (again, all the rest were built prior to 1980).

I don't understand why these Agile users have to try so hard to justify why their $400 guitars are so much better than the real thing they copy. People who do that are insecure, and worse still, it's about something that is so trivial and pathetic in the grand scheme of being a musician.


The "real thing" has over 100 versions, and not one of those brand name copies duplicate the original "real things" from the '50's. That's why Slash went hunting for copies (Derrig, Max) in order to do Appetite for Destruction. Your pop psychology is appreciated, but sometimes the airy-fairy elven mythology that surrounds a heavily marketed hi-priced brand name needs to have its balloon popped.

If you tie your "grand scheme of being a musician" to the logo on your instrument, maybe you should be looking at the insecurity that represents?
#142
We get Agiles here man. I've played a few.

You know how Tokais and Burnys of the 70s are considered superior to the Gibsons of the same year, perhaps the same will be thought of in Agile in 20 years. I might just buy one just in case...

Slash just fell in love with a particular guitar. One that was given to him. He spanked his cash on smack and women and lost or sold that guitar, as far as I remember he went looking for a copy that was as good as that one. I don't think he's the best example for anything haha.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.


Last edited by Mephaphil at May 14, 2013,
#143
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Y
Unless you're actually advocating that a subjective motive is the reason people buy expensive guitars (Ie you're agreeing with me), then you are advocating that people should just buy cheaper guitars and that anyone who doesn't is wasting their money.


I think most purchases that aren't necessary for survival are "subjective." That's GAS.
The job of any marketing department is to create a want or need in you for whatever they're promoting. The whole business of selling a very traditional brand (like Fender or Gibson or Rickenbacker) is to call upon that tradition in their advertising. You want to sound like Jimmy Page or Slash or Clapton or whomever, then you should have their guitar (or one very much like it, or one that they endorse or one that we've pasted their name on, etc.). Gibson's very much got that down pat, and so does Fender.

When you spend a sizable chunk for a guitar (or any other item), you sort of hope that you're getting your money's worth, and no one wants to hear that they've fallen for The Emperor's New Clothes.

I'm not advocating that people shouldn't buy Gibson or any other expensive guitar. In fact, I'm all for it. It's just that the *assumption* that "it's better because it cost more money" can be challenged if you back away from the subjective and the heavy use of adjectives in marketing copy and take a good, hard, objective look at what you have.
#144
Quote by Mephaphil
We get Agiles here man. I've played a few.

You know how Tokais and Burnys of the 70s are considered superior to the Gibsons of the same year, perhaps the same will be thought of in Agile in 20 years. I might just buy one just in case...

Slash just fell in love with a particular guitar. One that was given to him. He spanked his cash on smack and women and lost or sold that guitar, as far as I remember he went looking for a copy that was as good as that one. I don't think he's the best example for anything haha.


Good point. He and the boys from LA Guns and Poison hung out, occasionally, at John Scarpatti's photo studio at the opposite corner of the building from mine. One morning, after some serious partying had gone on at John's (including the aforementioned folks), we were having coffee on his couch. All of a sudden a head popped up from behind the couch. "Hi!" Followed by the rest of a nekkid lady, who then went in search of her clothes. John is a good Christian family man these days somewhere in Nashville, still photographing (country celebs these days). I often wondered what his cleaning crew went home with in their vacuum cleaners.
#146
Quote by Tom 1.0
All I know is my Les Paul is completely hand made.


The Burny?
Likely true. Good stuff.
#148
Quote by Tom 1.0
gif snip

Alright, muuuummmmmm......

Gosh....
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#149
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE

I don't understand why these Agile users have to try so hard to justify why their $400 guitars are so much better than the real thing they copy. People who do that are insecure, and worse still, it's about something that is so trivial and pathetic in the grand scheme of being a musician.


I don't understand why these Gibson users have to try so hard to justify why their $4000 guitars are so much better than Agiles. People who do that are insecure, and worse still, it's about something that is so trivial and pathetic in the grand scheme of being a musician.
#150
Quote by dspellman
I love Tina Fey. If she's suggesting bed, I'm so there.


Me too!!

Well, umm, not if you're in there with her.
#151
Quote by dspellman
No. You're from the UK and you've never run into an Agile, obviously. But more importantly, pickups are definitely a personal taste issue. That's why there are a kajillion pickup winders out there making replacements for Gibsons and for every other humbucking-equipped guitar on the planet because people swap them out. Nothing special about Gibson pickups, sorry. That said, I usually don't swap out pickups on guitars; I usually pick a guitar for the way it sounds from the get-go. On both the Axcess and the Agile custom, I tossed the Burstbuckers and installed a hot '57 in the bridge and a Fast Track II (DiMarzio) in the neck. I've left the pickups alone on the other two Agiles and on every other Gibson I own (again, all the rest were built prior to 1980).

I like the Gibson pickups so to me none of what you've said really matters.

You can't use what you've said as a valid argument because you yourself know that it is personal preference.
The "real thing" has over 100 versions, and not one of those brand name copies duplicate the original "real things" from the '50's. That's why Slash went hunting for copies (Derrig, Max) in order to do Appetite for Destruction. Your pop psychology is appreciated, but sometimes the airy-fairy elven mythology that surrounds a heavily marketed hi-priced brand name needs to have its balloon popped.

Actually, design-wise, they are very, very similar. With something like a Gibson VOS, it's as close as you're going to get for a new guitar and WAY closer to what you're going to get with an Agile.

I love my guitars and I think the one I own was well worth the money I payed for it. So what balloon needs to be popped here? What makes you think it is a crime?

If you tie your "grand scheme of being a musician" to the logo on your instrument, maybe you should be looking at the insecurity that represents?

I don't understand why these Gibson users have to try so hard to justify why their $4000 guitars are so much better than Agiles. People who do that are insecure, and worse still, it's about something that is so trivial and pathetic in the grand scheme of being a musician.

Says the person who is pushing their agenda so hard that it's coming out of their ass.

The fact is that I really couldn't care less of what you think my guitar is worth. I love my guitar and that to me is all that matters. If you love your Agile, more power to you. Just don't be a dick about it. To try to bash another guitar owner's guitar for your own personal gain is pretty pathetic.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at May 14, 2013,
#152
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
The fact is that I really couldn't care less of what you think my guitar is worth. I love my guitar and that to me is all that matters. If you love your Agile, more power to you. Just don't be a dick about it.




This should be the end of this.

But I know it won't.

Warning: Another wall-of-text incoming. :/
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Deadhorse OD/Boss HM-2
#153
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE

The fact is that I really couldn't care less of what you think my guitar is worth. I love my guitar and that to me is all that matters. If you love your Agile, more power to you. Just don't be a dick about it. To try to bash another guitar owner's guitar for your own personal gain is pretty pathetic.


I'm "being a dick" by pointing out that Gibsons are no longer hand-made?
Hmm.
Its "bashing Gibsons" for proving that they're made with CNC machines?
Hmm.

You sure are thin-skinned if the mere presentation of facts is so upsetting to you.
#154
Gibson-y and Agile-y
Live together in perfect harmony
Why we argue at keyboards?
When one fretboard
Is ebony
ZEN JUDDHISM
The new solo project, and spiritual philosophy... Album out now !
----------------------------------------------------------
hybrid 6.0
Debut album 'Silent Destruction' out now
Read the Two Guys Metal review here
#156
I know everyone's raging, thinking that their particular guitar brand they like is getting blasted or whatever.

But setting all that aside, I've learned a hell of a lot reading these comments.

It's not so important to me whether or not somebody thinks a $500 Agile is as good as a $1500 Gibson. Who cares? That argument will never be solved, regardless of evidence presented for either side. What constitutes "better" is largely subjective for guitarists. But it does seem, as I suggested earlier, that to compare a $500 Agile with a $500 Gibson is completely fair. Even more fair to compare Epiphone with Agile. For the price, you just can't get the same features on an Epi that you can on an Agile.

For people like me who greatly prefer ebony fretboards, for example, Gibson just doesn't seem willing to do that whole thing. I have to agree that the unwillingness or inability of Gibson to offer a lot of custom options (by which I mean significant variations on the classic models, within the same price range) on their non-custom guitars is very disappointing. Of course people will say "that's why you buy custom" but a "custom" guitar from Rondo is maybe $500, and I can have all the features I want. Just saying.

Different strokes.

I wish we had some people on here to passionately argue about Dillion, so I could figure out if their beautiful LP copies are any good to play.
#157
Quote by samuraigoomba

I wish we had some people on here to passionately argue about Dillion, so I could figure out if their beautiful LP copies are any good to play.


Dillion USA or Dillion Canada? Now there's a passionate argument!
#158
Usa Usa Usa.
Quote by Shredwizard445
Go ahead and spend your money, I don't care. It won't make you sound better.


Quote by Shredwizard445
Sure upgrading your gear will make you sound better.