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gnr10101
UG Newbie
Join date: Mar 2013
225 IQ
#3
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Well done article. It didn't have anything that I disagreed with.


I appreciate that, glad you enjoyed the read!
20Tigers
1
Join date: Jun 2008
640 IQ
#4
Warning: I'm feeling rather cynical today.

I've read that same article about a million times before, just with different words. 95% of the regulars here have probably typed that same article at some point, in their own words. As far as blogs go it didn't really offer any new or interesting angles. disappointed.

Also are you just trying to generate traffic to your site???
Si
Morphogenesis26
UG Nerd
Join date: Apr 2011
468 IQ
#6
Quote by :-D
scrolled quickly, saw tons of words = unnecessarily verbose answer

the entire question at work is quite literally "does understanding what the hell's going on in (topic x) improve your ability to work with (topic x), yes or no"

how could there possibly be a "no" side of this


"You're using your brain to make music not your heart."

I imagine that's what most people who answer no would say.
steven seagull
not really a seagull
Join date: Oct 2006
1,064 IQ
#8
Quote by 20Tigers
Warning: I'm feeling rather cynical today.

I've read that same article about a million times before, just with different words. 95% of the regulars here have probably typed that same article at some point, in their own words. As far as blogs go it didn't really offer any new or interesting angles. disappointed.

Also are you just trying to generate traffic to your site???

Nail. Hit. Head.
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
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#9
Inspiration is a bitch... it always favours someone else. Rather just do it instead of waiting for it to come to you. If the mountain refuses to play fetch with you... burn it.

Was an ok article. Lots of words that initially promised not to show how its done, and you stayed true to that principle.
Erc
UG's ultimate asshole
Join date: Jun 2005
670 IQ
#10
I think theory is a means by which you explain an artistic phenomenon. You utilize theory to explain music, not to write music.
macashmack
Maskcashmack
Join date: May 2011
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#11
I liked everything except where you said you could write in a wrong note that clashes with established music theory. There are no wrong notes in established music theory. It's basically an accidental. Unless you used a note that wasn't one of the 12 notes, but even that would be explained with music theory (but I wouldn't like the sound of it).
crazysam23_Atax
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#12
Quote by Erc
I think theory is a means by which you explain an artistic phenomenon. You utilize theory to explain music, not to write music.

It can be used to both explain and write.
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
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#13
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
It can be used to both explain and write.

Don't know so much about that. It can't teach you to write well. But it can be used to take away all the magic of a piece. Some people tend to dumb down the piece with a theoretical explanation and succeed. I tend not to like those people... are you one of them?
crazysam23_Atax
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#14
Quote by evolucian
Don't know so much about that.


Allow me to direct you to this line from the above article (because I'm too lazy to write up something myself) :
"...it definitely doesn’t hurt to be aware of all your musical options before finishing a piece."

It can't teach you to write well.

No, it can't. But it sometimes can be an aid in helping when you're stuck.

But it can be used to take away all the magic of a piece.

This statement is nonsensical. Music is based upon listening. Evaluation of a piece should NOT ruin "the magic" for you.

Some people tend to dumb down the piece with a theoretical explanation and succeed. I tend not to like those people... are you one of them?

How do you dumb down a piece with a theoretical explanation?

I think I get what you're saying, but (as above) I find it to be nonsensical. Theory doesn't dumb things down. It simply explains what's going on. If that ruins it for you, then you probably don't understand how to properly apply theory.
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#15
Its pretty easy to dumb it down... especially when you separate a magical three line post into four sections. Point proven.

Looks at daily planner: get someone crazy to take the bait - check.

Allow me to direct you to this line from the above article (because I'm too lazy to write up something myself) :
"...it definitely doesn’t hurt to be aware of all your musical options before finishing a piece."
Direct me then and stop typing... direct me already! What happens if I only have one chord to do to finish my piece, do I stop everything and draw up some charts to see if my final chord I'm thinking of is the right one? What happens if I have that chord but just need to write one more melody note to finish my piece. Do I just stop and draw some more charts to look at all my possibilities?

Evaluation of a piece should NOT ruin "the magic" for you.

What good is evaluation if it can't strip the magic away? I don't like it then.

Theory doesn't dumb things down. It simply explains what's going on. If that ruins it for you, then you probably don't understand how to properly apply theory.

It does. If it explains what's going on then its dumb. I don't understand how to properly apply theory... teach me.
Last edited by evolucian at May 7, 2013,
schwinginbatman
Join date: Mar 2009
484 IQ
#16
I don't see why not. In my case, music theory has only helped me. It allows me to know exactly what it is I'm looking for when I'm writing, rather than before, which was essentially me pecking in the dark looking for the note combinations that I was looking for. And theoretically explaining something, again for me, has helped me, as in bringing the "magic" down to explanations helps me rebuild that sound in my own music.

It comes down to your own songwriting style. But I feel that either way knowing theory can help you in some manner.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#17
music theory is like science

yeah, it encapsulates a series of understandings, but first and foremost it's an analytical system that operates whether we devotedly study it or not. if you've ever understood anything about music at all (especially not strictly on a textbook level), hummed a melody, learned some riffs by ear, you've put some effort into your musical education.

there's a level of pretentiousness, as in any craft, but all this "music theory or no music theory" stuff is redundant and serves no purpose because theory is inherent in anything. somebody didn't just one day say "okay, this is how music from now on is going to be" - it just happened and people learned to explain it so we could add it to our compendium of understanding in the realm of music - but anybody passionate about music can start from the ground up and learn everything with curiosity, a strong ear, passion, and the ability to connect, challenge, and edify theories objectively and with common sense.
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macashmack
Maskcashmack
Join date: May 2011
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#18
Quote by evolucian
Its pretty easy to dumb it down... especially when you separate a magical three line post into four sections. Point proven.

Looks at daily planner: get someone crazy to take the bait - check.

Direct me then and stop typing... direct me already! What happens if I only have one chord to do to finish my piece, do I stop everything and draw up some charts to see if my final chord I'm thinking of is the right one? What happens if I have that chord but just need to write one more melody note to finish my piece. Do I just stop and draw some more charts to look at all my possibilities?


What good is evaluation if it can't strip the magic away? I don't like it then.


It does. If it explains what's going on then its dumb. I don't understand how to properly apply theory... teach me.

Nobody would write charts to find chords and melodies to write music, that's ****ing stupid. Your rebuff of theory is based on nothing, as you yourself just stated that you don't understand how to apply theory. You're nonsensical.
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#19
Yes, I'm nonsensical... and don't understand how to apply theory. Will you offer to teach me pls, mac?
Last edited by evolucian at May 7, 2013,
crazysam23_Atax
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#21
Quote by evolucian
Yes, I'm nonsensical... and don't understand how to apply theory. Will you offer to teach me pls, mac?

Troll harder.
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#22
Not trolling. Just want to understand what all the fuss is about.
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
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#23
Quote by evolucian
Not trolling. Just want to understand what all the fuss is about.

And displaying your ignorance of it all. Now, go read the article in the OP. Then, read Hail's post. Then, go re-read what I posted.

Edit:
And read Mac's links.
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#24
But that's quite a lot to read. Can't you just sum it up. Musictheory.net is more than one page, and they're big pages. Didn't click the others cos the first one scared the crap out of me. A summary would be nice.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#25
respect your elders, boy. evo's forgot more theory in the last 10 minutes than you've learned

to be fair, writing music out with charts and approaching it logically is a valid way to write music. isn't the schillinger system completely based out of that? people with a strong ear can do that, however, because they hear what comes next and write it. the pen is just as valid as a guitar as long as it gets the job done that the composer wants it to get done.

this doesn't mean that music should be masturbatory, but i'd say a soulless written approach is no less detrimental to the whole artform than an unbridled "shredder" messing with his guitar and throwing it into guitar pro or protools or his brain or whatever he's using to get his ideas onto a legible front.

as i said above, though, theory is an analytic process, and even approaching in a purely mathematical manner, you absolutely have choices outside of what notes you're playing next that allow you to express your musicality however you see fit. how you handle that depends on how you are as an artist and a musician, not on the system.
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Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#27
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Where is the line between theory and compositional technique?

I seriously have no idea what the word theory even means. And even better, I'm not sure it matters.


i like this
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

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I want to be Hail when I grow up.
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#28
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Where is the line between theory and compositional technique?

I seriously have no idea what the word theory even means. And even better, I'm not sure it matters.

Good question jrf... I'm hoping someone can answer this without pointing me to musictheory.net again
crazysam23_Atax
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#30
Quote by Hail
respect your elders, boy. evo's forgot more theory in the last 10 minutes than you've learned

Age is not an automatic pass for dismissing things one appears to not understand. If evo really does understand tons of theory and is just testing us, then he's being a dick.

Quote by evolucian
But that's quite a lot to read. Can't you just sum it up. Musictheory.net is more than one page, and they're big pages. Didn't click the others cos the first one scared the crap out of me. A summary would be nice.

Tell me, have you ever used a guitar tab? Or sheet music? Or even chord charts?

If so, you've used theory, albeit the most basic aspects of it.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 7, 2013,
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#31
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Tell me, have you ever used a guitar tab? Or sheet music? Or even chord charts?

If so, you've used theory, albeit the most basic aspects of it.


lol
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

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I want to be Hail when I grow up.
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#32
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Tell me, have you ever used a guitar tab? Or sheet music? Or even chord charts?

If so, you've used theory, albeit the most basic aspects of it.

I've never used any of that. But I did look through a chord dictionary once... are those the chord charts you are referring to?

But you have piqued my interest as to using guitar tab. How is it theoretical in its basic aspect?
Last edited by evolucian at May 7, 2013,
crazysam23_Atax
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#33
Quote by evolucian
I've never used any of that. But I did look through a chord dictionary once... are those the chord charts you are referring to?

Yes...

Now, go do some reading. Ugh...

Why should we hand you the "golden keys" here? Do your own work.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 7, 2013,
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#34
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Yes...

Now, go do some reading. Ugh...

Why should we hand you the "golden keys" here? Do your own work.

Thats rather elitist of you. Don't proclaim to know something and not share it... very very selfish.

So having looked at a chord dictionary once, I know the basic aspect of theory. Guess there's no need for me to go to musictheory.net now... I sort of know most of it then
crazysam23_Atax
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#35
Quote by evolucian
Thats rather elitist of you. Don't proclaim to know something and not share it... very very selfish.

No, it's not. It's a simple matter of not having the time to do it. (Besides, I'm not a very good teacher. ) Also, I suspect you clearly have the skills to do it and can therefore do it in as long or as short of a period of time as you choose, if you choose to learn theory. By giving you several links to music theory websites, we're giving you a few tools to aid in learning theory.

Even assuming one of us on UG spent the time teaching you theory for a few months (which is a generous amount of time, as some people study complex theory for years), you'd still have to do work. We're simply saying, "Here! This will aid you in learning. Now, go do your homework." If you choose not to learn theory, whatever, that's your decision.

So having looked at a chord dictionary once, I know the basic aspect of theory. Guess there's no need for me to go to musictheory.net now... I sort of know most of it then
Look, if you can write great music without theory (I assume using solely your ear), great!

But to dismiss learning theory entirely, that's like saying no one should learn how to read because they can just tell stories. Theory being the written stories here, and stories being the played sounds of songs. (Yes, it's a ridiculous comparison, but it was meant to be.)

Quote by evolucian
I never dismissed anything. Merely used your advice that looking at a chord dictionary has given me the basic aspect of theory... yet I still don't know how. Everyone has time to do things... some are just selfish

Ugh, really? You honestly think selfishness is the real reason? I have a programming assignment due here soon. Enjoy your life thinking we're all selfish bastards.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 7, 2013,
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#36
I never dismissed anything. Merely used your advice that looking at a chord dictionary has given me the basic aspect of theory... yet I still don't know how. Everyone has time to do things... some are just selfish

Way to go at putting the response to this question in the previous post. Programming assignment... on ug.

Even assuming one of us on UG spent the time teaching you theory for a few months (which is a generous amount of time,
A few months? Hell no... a simple post would do... summarise! It can't be that much... but alas:

as some people study complex theory for years)

What is this? What is complex theory... sounds worse than the websites you sent me to. Pls explain
Last edited by evolucian at May 7, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
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#37
I don't like it when people say "they wrote this with/without theory".

When you know theory, you can't "write without theory" because you are pretty much aware of what you are doing, even if you didn't pay attention to it. There's no such thing as writing without theory. But theory by itself doesn't write songs. You need to write your own songs by yourself. You make the choices, theory doesn't make any choices for you.

To write a good song you don't need to know theory but knowing theory helps because it explains what you are doing and you are aware of what you are doing.

And why would being aware of what you are doing make your songs sound worse?

You have your theory knowledge and you use it automatically. It doesn't limit you nor make your songwriting better. Songwriting skills differ from theory skills. Even if you know lots of theory, you might not be a good songwriter. Of course theory helps in songwriting because it's easier to write a song when you are aware of what you are doing but you need to make choices, not theory. Lol, seems like I'm repeating myself.
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evolucian
Registered User
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#38
^Just a bit. But I think if you say theory one more time it'll sort of even things out
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
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#39
Quote by evolucian
^Just a bit. But I think if you say theory one more time it'll sort of even things out

Theory.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Yamaha FG720S-12
Tokai TB48
Laney VC30
Hartke HyDrive 210c
evolucian
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2008
682 IQ
#40
Woohoo. 13 lines in previous post, only 12 mentions of theory. +1... all good now. OCD in order.... but then again... somethings amiss

edit: Is there a theory to songwriting? If so, what is it? I'm only asking because people like throwing the theory word around and I think this is a good question... one which crazyman can possibly answer.
Last edited by evolucian at May 7, 2013,