#1
I've been recently wanting to learn to play heavier music (Metallica, Black Sabbath etc.) however i can't seem to get a good metal crunch tone from my setup

Note: I am NOT trying to emulate Metallica's tone for example as i know i would need their gear

Gear:

Guitar: Tokai SG with standard Humbucker Pick-Ups
Amp: Roland 20XL
Pick: Fender 1mm

Amp settings:

Bass: 9 / 10
Mid: 1 - 3
Treble: 8 - 10

Pick-Up switch in the "Rythem" position

Even despite those i can't get a nice crunch, it's still to tinny / warm

I was looking into getting a BOSS ML-2 Metal Core Pedal, seems to give decent crunch tones

What do you suggest?
#2
Maybe it would be better if you'd turn up the mids, and turn down bass and treble. Definition of guitar tone is in middle frequencies. Which channel on your amp you're using? How much gain do you dial in?
I don't know a lot about Boss ML-2. I have MT-2 metal zone. You could try that. Few days ago, me and my friend were trying out metal zone on his Nux 30 watt solid state amp. Usually, the amp sounds muddy and it's really bad, but with the metal zone it sounded a lot better. So you could try it, maybe it will be the case with your amp too.
#3
On my amp i'm either using "Metal" or "Metal Stack" and as for gain, it's normally at 8+
#4
I never played your amp, so I can't know how does it sounds. But having gain over 8 is not really necessary, especially if you play stuff like Black Sabbath. Turn it down a little, try picking strings harder, maybe you'll get clearer but still heavy sound. But it would probably be the best to get a good distortion pedal, or even better a new amp (but that can be expensive).
#5
Start with every knob at noon and effects off. And use your bridge pickup (treble position). With neck pickups it gets muddy if you have lots of gain. So don't use your "rhythm" pickup position, use the "treble" position.

Don't crank your treble and bass and don't scoop your mids too much. Avoid extreme settings (fully cranked/scooped). That doesn't usually sound really musical. So all the knobs at noon and start tweaking from there. Does it sound too dark? Add some treble. Or maybe it's too harsh? Turn your treble knob down. Too muddy? Turn the bass down. Need some more bottom end? Turn the bass up. Too much mids might sound honky and too little mids just sounds too thin. You might want to scoop some mids (so that the knob is not all the way down but at something like 3-4). Though I have heard that in more modern metal people use a bit more mids so maybe turn them up a bit depending on what kind of tone you are after.

"Even despite those i can't get a nice crunch, it's still to tinny / warm"

It sounds too "tinny" because you scoop your mids too much and have too much bass and treble. As I said, extreme settings don't usually sound that great.

Don't buy a distortion pedal, it won't work through your amp. You have a modeling amp and it's not designed to sound good with distortion pedals. The whole purpose of a modeling amp is that you get all the sounds and effects you need in one package.

Oh, and turn your gain down. I had a Micro Cube and the "metal stack" setting had more than enough gain for me. You don't need to crank the gain. Try to have it as low as possible so that you still sound heavy. With too much gain you lose clarity.

Don't buy a distortion pedal, you'll regret it soon!! As I said, it doesn't work with your amp that well. And when you buy a better amp, you'll notice that the built in distortion sounds better. You'll only waste money if you buy a distortion pedal now.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at May 7, 2013,
#6
i only recently got my guitar and both (both of them arn't even a year old) so getting new ones arn't really an option
#7
Try using the treble pickup, that is the standard for most metal sounds. It is tighter and more percussive, which is what you want for metal. Also, use the minimum amount of gain required to get sustained notes. You don't want too much, it turns everything to mush.

I don't think putting a pedal through it will do anything you can't achieve with the amp, it is very versatile and should be able to get a passable metal tone.

Really though, switch pickup positions. I'm not sure why you would use the rhythm pickup for metal, other than for fluid leads.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#8
What size strings? for metal I always suggest DR 10s. your amp has built in distortion. turn the knob to metal or metal stack. bass at near max, mid and treb about the same.. adjust the gain as needed.

here's the link to the strings i suggested. that should take care of the 'tinny' sound.

http://www.guitarmegastore.net/product/RrD10vPD/dr-strings-dimebag-darrell-dbg-1-medium-hi-voltage-electric-guitar-strings/
#9
Quote by dementiacaptain
Try using the treble pickup, that is the standard for most metal sounds. It is tighter and more percussive, which is what you want for metal. Also, use the minimum amount of gain required to get sustained notes. You don't want too much, it turns everything to mush.

I don't think putting a pedal through it will do anything you can't achieve with the amp, it is very versatile and should be able to get a passable metal tone.

Really though, switch pickup positions. I'm not sure why you would use the rhythm pickup for metal, other than for fluid leads.


i tend to get forgetting to change pickup positions as right now i tend to try and learn a varity of styles (Classic Rock, Modern Rock, Blues, Metal, Heavy Metal etc.)
#10
Quote by noobguitarist26
What size strings? for metal I always suggest DR 10s. your amp has built in distortion. turn the knob to metal or metal stack. bass at near max, mid and treb about the same.. adjust the gain as needed.

here's the link to the strings i suggested. that should take care of the 'tinny' sound.

http://www.guitarmegastore.net/product/RrD10vPD/dr-strings-dimebag-darrell-dbg-1-medium-hi-voltage-electric-guitar-strings/

i heard that the strings don't really make much difference (in terms of makes) i do use 10s
#11
Quote by Tcrumpen
i tend to get forgetting to change pickup positions as right now i tend to try and learn a varity of styles (Classic Rock, Modern Rock, Blues, Metal, Heavy Metal etc.)

Bridge ("treble") pickup is what you should pretty much use for everything with heavy distortion (other than some leads). That's because neck ("rhythm") position sounds too muddy with heavy distortion, especially when you play chords. Yes, it says "rhythm" in the selector but it doesn't mean you should use it all the time when you are playing rhythm guitar. I would only use my neck pickup for light distortion, clean and some lead parts.

And the tinny sound is not due to your strings. It's because of your amp settings.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#12
^ agreed. switch to the bridge humbucker ASAP. that's the big problem, if you ask me. do that one thing and you may well solve all of your problems in one fell swoop.

Refusing to do that because of some daft notion that you don't want to mess with pickup positions is... silly, frankly. it's like asking why you can't drive your new car at 70mph and when someone points out that you should probably try fifth gear instead of second, saying, "i don't want to mess with gear changing just yet".



Quote by dementiacaptain
Try using the treble pickup, that is the standard for most metal sounds. It is tighter and more percussive, which is what you want for metal.


yeah do that. just because it's labelled the rhythm pickup doesn't mean you use it for rhythm. gibson came up with those names in the 50s (maybe earlier, i'm no guitar historian ), lol.

yeah metal or metal stack amp models are the ones you want.

don't worry about the strings.

EDIT: yeah change those amp eq settings too. try everything at 12 o'clock to start with and tweak from there.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at May 7, 2013,
#14
Quote by Tcrumpen
should also add that i use a small bit of reverb when playing Metallica

Why not try it? Reverb with heavy tones can sound muddy (at least if you have too much reverb) but some reverb is not a bad thing and might make your sound bigger.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure you will sound pretty good when you set all of your knobs at 12 o'clock and use your bridge ("treble") pickup.

Also turn your guitar volume and tone all the way up (that's also pretty important - you won't get distortion if your guitar volume is too low and in metal you pretty much keep your volume and tone all the way up all the time to get the most clear and heavy sounds).

Just tweak your settings. It's not that hard. There are no rules when it comes to tone. It's about your preferences. If you like a reverb-heavy tone, you need to use reverb. Who cares if metal bands in general don't use certain effects? It doesn't stop you from trying them. If you like reverb, why not use it?

But first try to find a good "base tone" and after that add effects.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#15
The Roland is a solid state, so you want to keep more mids and bass in, and less treble, than you would with a similar valve amp. You also do not need as much gain as you think you need.

Try leaving the bass on full, the mids at about 66-75%, the treble at about 50%, set the delay/reverb to be a very quick and quiet delay (the every first option should be more than you want) and try using some chorus on the minimum setting. Chorus is surprisingly common in classic metal and heavy metal.
Keep the gain at 50% and move between the amp models until you find what sounds best. Roland don't say what they based their models on exactly, so you've just go to experiment and see. From my experience with the Cubes, I'd suggest the Distortion sound will be the best for more classic metal tones and the Metal setting will be the best for more modern stuff. As I recall, the Metal Stack is just a big wall of inaudible fuzzy noise.
Yes, I know everything. No, I can't play worth a damn.
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#16
Quote by MrFlibble
The Roland is a solid state, so you want to keep more mids and bass in, and less treble, than you would with a similar valve amp. You also do not need as much gain as you think you need.

Try leaving the bass on full, the mids at about 66-75%, the treble at about 50%, set the delay/reverb to be a very quick and quiet delay (the every first option should be more than you want) and try using some chorus on the minimum setting. Chorus is surprisingly common in classic metal and heavy metal.
Keep the gain at 50% and move between the amp models until you find what sounds best. Roland don't say what they based their models on exactly, so you've just go to experiment and see. From my experience with the Cubes, I'd suggest the Distortion sound will be the best for more classic metal tones and the Metal setting will be the best for more modern stuff. As I recall, the Metal Stack is just a big wall of inaudible fuzzy noise.

I didn't really use any effects on my Micro Cube when I played distorted stuff. I sometimes tried chorus with distortion but I didn't really like it.

Actually all settings are about your preferences. Different amps need to be EQed differently. Also different guitars need to be EQed differently. It also has to do with the room you are playing in.

As I said, first try to find a good "base tone" and once you have found it, try adding effects. I don't really like any effects on my distorted settings but of course try them and see what you like. The problem with the effects of Cube is that you can only control their rate, not level. So you can't really add a touch of chorus. And I think the effects on distorted settings were too strong. I liked using chorus on my clean settings though.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#17
Make sure your guitar string height relative to your pickups are correct. The pickups have a sweet spot. Google it.

If you are confident that you are setup right, then you have everything you need for a decent metal tone.

The next step is incessant practice and the impending benefit of experience.
#18
wow changing the pickup selector and gain actually made a lot of difference, still tweaking the EQs though shame i can't record it and put it on here, don't have a decent mic for that

Edit: however when i palm mute and do single notes it lacks the punch that it should, pwer chords sound fine however
Last edited by Tcrumpen at May 8, 2013,
#19
it's almost like we know what we're talking about
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#20
Quote by Tcrumpen
wow changing the pickup selector and gain actually made a lot of difference, still tweaking the EQs though shame i can't record it and put it on here, don't have a decent mic for that

Edit: however when i palm mute and do single notes it lacks the punch that it should, pwer chords sound fine however

If it lacks the punch, it might also be your technique. You could also try different amp models. Maybe try turning up the mids or treble.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#21
Quote by MaggaraMarine
If it lacks the punch, it might also be your technique. You could also try different amp models. Maybe try turning up the mids or treble.

it most likley is my technique

however it still sounded a little tinny when a mate (who is a better guitarist than i am) tried it, perhaps my amp can't dish out aggresive single note metal dist
#22
I already said you have to hit strings hard, if you pick like a pussy you're gonna sound like a pussy.
#23
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Words
No shit. The EQ suggestions I gave were for a Roland Cube with an SG. What, you think I'm going to copy&paste my settings from a totally different amp and guitar? Common sense, please.
Yes, I know everything. No, I can't play worth a damn.
A child is trafficked and sold for sex slavery every 30 seconds. Support Love146.
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