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#1
So I was doodling about with my guitar and came up with a few triads that sound well together, so I wanted to find out the names. Now bear in mind that I am a complete beginner in the theory side of music, so this is a simple question (or should be).

The first triad was 1 b3 5, which, afaik, is a minor triad.
Now the second one turned out to be 1 2 b6, now how the hell do I name it?
#2
This always happens to me... I pick up the guitar and end up inventing a new language. >_>
#3
Could be an inversion of a m7-5 chord. If we make use the intervalls you mentioned, staring from A this chord would contain the notes A,B and F. If we view B as the root note then F is the dimished fifth and A the minor seventh. So i would say a minor seventh flat 5 chord without a third in third inversion maybe?
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#6
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Out of context it's a collection of three pitches.


collections are only existent in atonal music. I'm assuming it's tonal so I'm leaning towards a partially dim 7th
#8
Quote by Erc
collections are only existent in atonal music.


Not sure if srs..

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Quote by Celestus
So I was doodling about with my guitar and came up with a few triads that sound well together, so I wanted to find out the names. Now bear in mind that I am a complete beginner in the theory side of music, so this is a simple question (or should be).

The first triad was 1 b3 5, which, afaik, is a minor triad.
Now the second one turned out to be 1 2 b6, now how the hell do I name it?


If both of these are from the same root, the second chord will be functioning as ii7 over a tonic pedal.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at May 20, 2013,
#9
Yeah they're both from C. I just liked the sound from the C minor triad to this abomination of a name. So I could fit this in a chord progression that contains ii7? I guess I should read up more about these things before I try to understand them. Thank you for all the help, and for all that may follow.
#10
The chord name depends on the context. But yeah, it kind of sounds like a m7b5 without a third. But in this case it's not 1 2 b6, it's 1 b5 b7 (because the 2 would be your root note).

But yeah, you need to have some kind of context. What are the chords before and after this chord and what do the other instruments play? Same notes function differently in a different situation.
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#11
Not sure if srs..


I'd abandon all analysises using collections anyways. The essence of atonal music is that it is non-melodic and abandons all notion of traditional and informal voice leading. You only ever use the term collections if your analyzing two or more parallel tone rows. Furthermore, even if you analyzed it as a a tone cluster (and no I don't think the two are synonymous) the tone cluster's function is always, and practically by definition, percussive in nature. So inless that particular collections of tones are percussive in context, I wouldn't even analyze it as a tone cluster. Also, people tend to make the mistake of analyzing according to collections in what is essentially x-tonal music where x is any number equal to or greater than 2. It is just a cop out in my opinion.

EDIT ---> But I basically hate atonality anyways so take it with a grain of salt. It's kind of ironic that I'm almost always recommending arnold schoenberg's Fundamentals of Musical Composition, but verklarte nacht justifies it alone.

EDIT 2 --> Also, I say that atonal music is non harmonic and non melodic because it's analyzed using mother ****ing matrices, which throws out all harmonic and traditional melodic analysis for a mother****ing reason... because it doesn't exist.

EDIT 3 --> It's like music completely and utterly reduced down to math and that is just ridiculous in my opinion.
Last edited by Erc at May 20, 2013,
#13
Quote by Erc
I'd abandon all analysises using collections anyways. The essence of atonal music is that it is non-melodic and abandons all notion of traditional and informal voice leading. You only ever use the term collections if your analyzing two or more parallel tone rows. Furthermore, even if you analyzed it as a a tone cluster (and no I don't think the two are synonymous) the tone cluster's function is always, and practically by definition, percussive in nature. So inless that particular collections of tones are percussive in context, I wouldn't even analyze it as a tone cluster. Also, people tend to make the mistake of analyzing according to collections in what is essentially x-tonal music where x is any number equal to or greater than 2. It is just a cop out in my opinion.

EDIT ---> But I basically hate atonality anyways so take it with a grain of salt. It's kind of ironic that I'm almost always recommending arnold schoenberg's Fundamentals of Musical Composition, but verklarte nacht justifies it alone.

EDIT 2 --> Also, I say that atonal music is non harmonic and non melodic because it's analyzed using mother ****ing matrices, which throws out all harmonic and traditional melodic analysis for a mother****ing reason... because it doesn't exist.

EDIT 3 --> It's like music completely and utterly reduced down to math and that is just ridiculous in my opinion.

Jimmies have been rustled.

/thread.
#14
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Out of context it's a bunch of assorted pitches.


Fixed that for Erc
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#16
Id label is as a 1 bb3 #5 and call it a double minor augmented fifth chord.
I don't know anything about this stuff.
#17
Quote by macashmack
Id label is as a 1 bb3 #5 and call it a double minor augmented fifth chord.
I don't know anything about this stuff.


This guy has it right.
#19
Quote by Erc
the tone cluster's function is always, and practically by definition, percussive in nature. So inless that particular collections of tones are percussive in context, I wouldn't even analyze it as a tone cluster.


it has no function if there isn't a context, dumby

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#20
Not to sound like a broken record, but there is no context.

That being said, I agree with anyone who said it acted as a ii7 chord (which is a half-diminished chord). Actually, it would be a ii4/2 chord, but missing the third. That would make sense.

Here's an example progression in C minor:
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#22
Holy shit, this is an abysmal thread...

@TS:
Why, oh why, didn't you provide at least a key for stupid triad?
#23
Quote by griffRG7321
^Do you even know what figured bass is bro?


Obviously not, otherwise he would realize that the ii chord shown in the image is actually a ii6\5.
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#24
Quote by Show Don't Tell
Not to sound like a broken record, but there is no context.

That being said, I agree with anyone who said it acted as a ii7 chord (which is a half-diminished chord). Actually, it would be a ii4/2 chord, but missing the third. That would make sense.

Here's an example progression in C minor:

The ii you have there is not a 4/2, rather it's a 6/5. If it were a 4/2, the Bass voice would have stayed the same during the i to the iiø4/2 part.
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#25
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Holy shit, this is an abysmal thread...

@TS:
Why, oh why, didn't you provide at least a key for stupid triad?

Hello post 16814 & 16816

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1600173

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1596787
#26
Quote by Celestus
Now the second one turned out to be 1 2 b6, now how the hell do I name it?

add9 chord in first inversion. No 5th.

Edit, nope dat's wrong. Too tired and what difference does it make if it sounds good?
Last edited by mdc at May 21, 2013,
#27
Quote by Mister A.J.
The ii you have there is not a 4/2, rather it's a 6/5. If it were a 4/2, the Bass voice would have stayed the same during the i to the iiø4/2 part.

Oh shit, yes. My mistake. Well, partly. The chord the OP was referring to would be a 4/2 inversion. When I added the bass note, I forgot that to change the inversion label to 6/5. My bad! (The third in the bass was really just for demonstrative purposes, anyways.)

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Last edited by Show Don't Tell at May 21, 2013,
#28
Quote by Show Don't Tell
Oh shit, yes. My mistake. Well, partly. The chord the OP was referring to would be a 4/2 inversion. When I added the bass note, I forgot that to change the inversion label to 6/5. My bad! (The third in the bass was really just for demonstrative purposes, anyways.)

I'm not going to answer that. Bro.


Bro?
#29
it has no function if there isn't a context, dumby


Only context we have is that we know it is preceded by a minor chord and we can assume that TS hears it as a chord because he is asking for a chord name. So I think that throws tone cluster straight out the window, but yes I kind of agree with the general consensus....this thread is abysmal >_<

EDIT --> and come on...my improv isn't that bad /end shamless self promotion
Last edited by Erc at May 22, 2013,
#32
Tone clusters can exist in tonal music...


Only if the music is hybrid. I wouldn't call it tonal music even though tonal music can (obviously, since it is within the realm of possibility, have atonal moments. but tone clusters are by definition, and I'll argue this point all day, percussive...much like thelonious monk hitting the keyboard with his elbow.) have purely percussive moments. Would call the moment atonal though since tone clusters don't function harmonically... ever... otherwise, you name it as a chord.


EDIT --> In fact, I would say the pitch regions of a tone cluster actually don't matter. ever since its effect is non harmonic and non melodic.
Last edited by Erc at May 22, 2013,
#33
as defined by you...

Tone clusters were used centuries before Monk.

This is worse than the 'do 2 notes count as a chord?" debates.
#34
First of all, I never said cluster, I said collection, by which I just meant that it was a group of pitches. That is true in the same way that a major triad is a group of pitches. Second of all, tone clusters can be, but are not always percussive, in fact they're mostly not percussive. Third of all, what does "non-harmonic" and "non-melodic" mean? Harmony = multiple pitches sounded simultaneously therefore clusters are, by defintiion, harmonic events.
#35
Here's a video explaining what I'm talking about with examples of atonal music and hybrid music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM2XeTxM3-8


EDIT --> Calling it a collection isn't even an analysis and definitely isn't a chord, and I would say that clusters only differ in that you can name the occurrence of parallel tone rows as 'collections.' You only call it a collection when it doesn't function harmonically, and yes, genuinely atonal music (12 tone rows) don't function the same harmonically (even though we could use the word harmony loosely as two or more notes played together, but that's not tonal harmony, which entails the resolution of dissonances.) also, to open up a can of worms... I think two note chords do exist (due to the overtone series.)
Last edited by Erc at May 22, 2013,
#36
can you not
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#38
Quote by griffRG7321
This is worse than the 'do 2 notes count as a chord?" debates.
Well that settles it, I'm here for the long haul in the hope this thread turns into one of those.

In the mean time, I'll just sort of chuckle along with , "wull, I puts my fingeys, hur, hur, and hur, and I madez me a nu chord. Wut thu heck is it.....
#39
"wull, I puts my fingeys, hur, hur, and hur, and I madez me a nu chord. Wut thu heck is it.....


lol. On that note, only other time (now that I've thought about it a bit) that I would use term collection or assortment of pitches if it is a genuinely random musical event with no coherency in relation to the musical line. There are a few 20th century composers that tend to do things like this (and a few using number generators and other such random processes, then it is fair to call it an assortment of pitches, but so long as there is a phrase (melodic, if there is no phrase it is non melodic) or tonal harmony (elegant voice leading in polyphony or typical harmonic function in homophony) I would always say, FIND IT A CHORD NAME! =)


EDIT --> Scene: John Cage talking to John Nash " okay so lets roll some dice here to see what pitches we get. "
Last edited by Erc at May 22, 2013,
#40
That is completely absurd. Have you ever heard of set theory? As in like... the analytical method used to analyze buckets of music from the 20th/21st century that is totally based on the idea of pitch collections?
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