#1
I was wondering, since there are a lot of 'modal scales' that I keep seeing everywhere, wouldn't it be the exact same thing if I were to learn how to play the diatonic scale in any given key? I understand how certain patterns in progressions make up a certain 'modal' sound, but as far as playing a scale over them goes, I never understood why there had to be scales labeled after each mode (ie. Dorian Scale) when the diatonic scale existed. I'm probably wrong, but from what I've seen the modal scales are basically wholesome bits of the diatonic scale. It's probably a stupid question, but yeah, some clarification would be fantastic.
#2
Congratulations. You're one of the .1% that outright rejects the matrix without the need of medication. Long live Zion!
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#3
Quote by J-Dawg158
Congratulations. You're one of the .1% that outright rejects the matrix without the need of medication. Long live Zion!

I get an awful feeling about the meaning behind this. Again, sorry if it was an extremely stupid question, I'm just trying to get something clear so I can improve as a musician.
#4
it's a joke mixed with a bit of irony. The way the majority of guitarists try to interpret modes is really just an over complication when compared to normal functional harmony, hence the apprention most regs here show.
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#5
^ I laughed; thought it was pretty funny

Modes tend to be a non polyphonic phenomenon (even though sometimes they are, like in old Gregorian chant and other ancient church mediums (a few are called 'the church modes')) but they do exist within keys. Some jazz musicians (and this basically comes from The Jazz Theory Book) like to think of them as extended chords. Basically, the answer to your question is, yes you could actually play it by starting on different notes on the given key, but then they kind of have to resolve there to be truly called modal. (on a side note, modes actually can function a lot like keys... it's kind of a complicated subject =\)
#6
You are on the right track. Practice your diatonic major scales as key signatures - a number of sharps/flats - and you'll have all the diatonic modes under your fingers, as well.

Modality can be applied in a number of ways, but running dorian scales over a Santana-esque i-IV is possibly the least interesting way to do it. I really prefer thinking in terms of extended harmony, which is a lot more flexible and helps you get out of the diatonic box.
#7
you've got it right TS. modes for the most part serve the purpose of making you feel better than other people when you try and talk about them (and the smugness level gets dramatically higher the more wrong you are)

keep on keepin on
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#8
D dorian is kind of closer to D minor than to C major sound-wise, even though the notes in the scales are the same. What I mean by this is that the notes function way differently over a D minor progression than a C major progression so the scale sounds more like D minor than C major. I think D dorian scale as D minor with a major 6th, not as a C major scale played over D minor song. (OK - this is kind of "wrong" - I'm talking about modes as scales here - they are also scales but they are also more than that. Though the OP was also about modes as scales.)

But whatever, you don't need all these fancy names. Most of the time when you play the "D dorian scale", you play it over a D minor song that just uses a major IV chord or something. i-IV chord vamp is very usual. So you aren't really playing modal music, you are just using D minor scale with a major 6th, ie the dorian scale.

But if you can play the major and minor scale, just learn to use accidentals and you don't even need to think about modes.
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Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#9
Since theres 7 notes in the major scale. And theres 7 modes. Its a great way to learn the fretboard. Theres also 5 penatonic scales. That really helps spot out the bare-chords or vise versa, and minimize the amount of notes. Great technique challenges and most of the practicing is just you and your guitar. So its alot better then learning individual scales. ( I know everyone knows I'm just pointing it out). Because When you really work through the notes and scales on your own it helps to remember it all.
#10
Quote by metalmetalhead
Since theres 7 notes in the major scale. And theres 7 modes. Its a great way to learn the fretboard. Theres also 5 penatonic scales. That really helps spot out the bare-chords or vise versa, and minimize the amount of notes. Great technique challenges and most of the practicing is just you and your guitar. So its alot better then learning individual scales. ( I know everyone knows I'm just pointing it out). Because When you really work through the notes and scales on your own it helps to remember it all.

Yeah, the main point is to understand that scales aren't just random shapes on fretboard that somehow create magical music. The most important thing to understand about scales is how they sound and to know the scale pattern (for example minor scale 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7). And of course how to use the notes in a musical way (though that has a lot to do with a good ear).
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#11
And like every other "modes" discussion, this now devolves into detailed, nearly-correct explanations of what we just said the TS didn't need to know.
#14
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Yeah, the main point is to understand that scales aren't just random shapes on fretboard that somehow create magical music. The most important thing to understand about scales is how they sound and to know the scale pattern (for example minor scale 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7). And of course how to use the notes in a musical way (though that has a lot to do with a good ear).


I like the fact that, If you know 1 You have the information to figure out the rest.
So just using them as a learning tool is very helpful.

Knowing the formula is vital to this exsersize. also learning the individual note names is important as well.

It takes time like anything else. But this will help someone to play over the entire fretboard.

The ear is most important.

Ahhh yes learn key signature possibly one of the most important things ever....Not.

Your already using modes as more of scales anyway..

If you play in D dorian. your probably in C major or A minor. depends on the progression..But just because you move from where you were doesn't mean its modal.

Modes will help you stay in key tho. You can play C Then D E&F G A B&C. all in the same key of whatever progression your playing.
#15
Quote by metalmetalhead
I like the fact that, If you know 1 You have the information to figure out the rest.
So just using them as a learning tool is very helpful.

Knowing the formula is vital to this exsersize. also learning the individual note names is important as well.

It takes time like anything else. But this will help someone to play over the entire fretboard.

The ear is most important.

Ahhh yes learn key signature possibly one of the most important things ever....Not.

Your already using modes as more of scales anyway..

If you play in D dorian. your probably in C major or A minor. depends on the progression..But just because you move from where you were doesn't mean its modal.

Modes will help you stay in key tho. You can play C Then D E&F G A B&C. all in the same key of whatever progression your playing
.

You are referring to scale shapes as modes, right?

Because that really has nothing to do with modal music or modes.

If you play the D dorian scale, you aren't in C major or A minor because if you were in C major, the scale would be called C major (in A minor the scale would be called A minor).
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#16
In music theory today, modes don't serve the a harmonic purpose, really. It's mostly a clerical way of naming sets of notes. For instance, instead of saying "This is a G major scale that resolves to C" you can just say "This is in C Lydian". So, for the most part, scales are a being of academia.
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#17
Quote by metalmetalhead
I like the fact that, If you know 1 You have the information to figure out the rest.
So just using them as a learning tool is very helpful.

Knowing the formula is vital to this exsersize. also learning the individual note names is important as well.

It takes time like anything else. But this will help someone to play over the entire fretboard.

The ear is most important.

Ahhh yes learn key signature possibly one of the most important things ever....Not.

Your already using modes as more of scales anyway..

If you play in D dorian. your probably in C major or A minor. depends on the progression..But just because you move from where you were doesn't mean its modal.

Modes will help you stay in key tho. You can play C Then D E&F G A B&C. all in the same key of whatever progression your playing.

just fyi the word "you're" also exists

it's pretty useful as well
#18
If you take a Cmaj7 chord you will find it contains these notes:
CEGB
if you take an Emin chord youll find it contains these notes:
EGB
So in essence you could just learn how to play Cmaj7 and then just play it and omit the C in the root to get an Eminor right?
Yes you can.
But you would be kinda silly not to learn how to play Emin in its own right wouldn't you?
Same goes for modes.
All chords have a function within a key, and so do modes.
Learn as much as you can. It always opens new creative possibilities.
Last edited by BoogieShinbones at May 26, 2013,
#19
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just fyi the word "you're" also exists

it's pretty useful as well


It's the difference between knowing your shit, and knowing you're shit.
#20
Quote by MaggaraMarine
You are referring to scale shapes as modes, right?

Because that really has nothing to do with modal music or modes.

If you play the D dorian scale, you aren't in C major or A minor because if you were in C major, the scale would be called C major (in A minor the scale would be called A minor).


depends on your progression not the scale your playing.
#21
Quote by metalmetalhead
depends on your progression not the scale your playing.

Yes, the key depends on the progression and the scale name depends on the key. A minor scale is A minor scale only if you are playing in A minor. If you are playing in C major and play the same notes, it's C major scale that you are playing.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#22
I agree with boogie and angus I was just saying how I used the modes as more diatonic scales.

Because true music is not made up on command it comes natural I let my ear play the music not my brain. I still try to learn all I can.

The rest of the replies are dumb and unimportant. worry about your own spelling lol loser.
#23
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Yes, the key depends on the progression and the scale name depends on the key. A minor scale is A minor scale only if you are playing in A minor. If you are playing in C major and play the same notes, it's C major scale that you are playing.


I agree Good stuff man. I gotta work on memorial day.
#24
first it's essentially a grammatical issue as opposed to a spelling issue, but i primarily posted that because i didn't feel like disagreeing with the rest of your (not you're) post as people had already done, so i offered a helpful tip seeing as i do not have to worry about my own spelling because it's wonderful

i do remember your username and associate it with "oh here's a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about at all" so i tried to refrain from commenting on the actual content of your post

i'll simply let the fact that you replied "i agree good stuff man" to something that stated the polar opposite of your initial post here speak for itself
#25
You are a troller you give no advice.

What marine said isn't disagreeing with what I said. It was more of a misunderstanding. (I was talking about using modes as diatonic scales.) If your progression is in C major. IT doesn't matter if the scale you play is D Dorian. or E minor your still in C major.

There is a formula for the major scale, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1. If you start at 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 it will be a different scale pattern. 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1. I think. Its good practice without trying to learn individual scales. Its all in the major scale.

I Play my guitar and I hear my guitar. I'm just to much of a free spirit to worry about what others like you think of me.

I can zoom up down my guitar this shit helped me learn it! Theres alot of people that want to learn how to do this shit.
#26
You might want to read the Sticky Post about modes too labeled Before you Ask about Modes... very worthy read.

Jargon is a beast. Doesn't need to be but know that sound wise, it does make a difference to know your modes. For both the listeners, whether they know it or not, and for yourself... knowing that you can make your own playing more interesting and support other musicians and singers in a more knowledgable way. Modes help free you. It's not just talk or there to be snooty. It is a good thing to know.