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#1
Like this, but for these 2 modes. Anyone have this written out?
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#2
modal progression is an oxymoron
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#4
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direction of inflection


preach
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#5
do you mean the chord wheel?
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#6
TS, no need for modes, keys will cover all you need.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#7
Well... What I would do is just take the normal chord chart and alter the chords in it.

So our chords in A are: A Bm C#m D E F#m G#* (I'm using * as a diminished).

Let's take A Dorian. Dorian is a minor mode with a major sixth thrown in. It is 1(A) 2(B) b3(C) 4(D) 5(E) 6(F#) b7(G) 8(A). That means we need to change our chords to have F#'s instead of normal F's.

So in A Dorian we have: Am Bm C D Em F#* G

And just to help you out, here's the formulas for the chords.

I ii iii IV V vi vii*
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
3 4 5 6 7 1 2
5 6 7 1 2 3 4
#9
For dorian, start on the second chord. Eg. D dorian = Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C


For mixolydian, start on the third chord. Eg. E mixolydian = Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C, Dm


No need for fancy charts if you understand what's actually going on.
#10
Quote by derek8520
For dorian, start on the second chord. Eg. D dorian = Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C


For mixolydian, start on the third chord. Eg. E mixolydian = Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C, Dm


No need for fancy charts if you understand what's actually going on.


You clearly don't understand what's going on.
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#11
Quote by Sickz
You clearly don't understand what's going on.



I stand corrected, i got mixed up.

for mixolydian start on the 5th chord.
#12
Quote by derek8520
I stand corrected, i got mixed up.

for mixolydian start on the 5th chord.


That's better.

But then again, modes don't function that way. Starting on the second chord doesn't automatically put you in the dorian mode. Most of the people that think they play modally play in the normal major key.


TS;
I'll second Allan. Keys is a better way to look at it, modes are highly overrated.
Use your ear for getting the sounds that YOU want instead of TRYING to sound modal just for the sake of sounding modal.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

Quote by Guthrie Govan
“If you steal from one person it's theft, and if you steal from lots of people it's research”


Quote by Chick Corea
"Only play what you hear. If you don't hear anything, don't play anything."
#13
As stated earlier, Dorian chords would start from ii and Mixolydian chords would start from V. However, the ii and V would both become "I" (or "i" for minor). Just remember that you always resolve to the tonic. If you don't resolve to D in D Dorian, you aren't playing in that mode, but, simply a C major scale.

Here's a neat link on the history of modes.
http://www.standingstones.com/modeharm.html#renmode
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#14
I can't tell if this guy's just a troll or not
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#15
So, no chart? I want a quick reference sheet for both modes.

I how how to harmonize a scale, I just don't want to manually recalculate each set of chords every time I need to.
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Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 26, 2013,
#16
Quote by derek8520
For dorian, start on the second chord. Eg. D dorian = Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C
No need for fancy charts if you understand what's actually going on.


I don't understand how you can do this quickly, as you imply.

Let's try E mixolydian. Start on the 5th.

Well, for E major, there's a B in the V position. I turn that to E, correct?

Then I need to calculate that the interval to get to vi was a whole step, and that the chord is minor. So, the second chord is F#m (whole step up from E, and minor)

So far, I have E F#m.

The third chord is in the vii(dim) slot, and another whole step up.
Now, I have E F#m G#(dim)

The 4th chord is in the I slot, and is 1/2 step up.
Now, I have E F#m G#(dim) A

The 5th chord is in the ii slot, and is a whole step up.
Now, I have E F#m G#(dim) A Bm

The 6th chord is in the iii slot, and is a whole step up.
Now, I have E F#m G#(dim) A Bm C#m

The 7th chord is in the IV slot, and is 1/2 step up.
Now, I have E F#m G#(dim) A Bm C#m D

I ii iii(dim) IV v vi VII
with intervals of W-W-H-W-W-H-W

Now, is it just me, or is this a major annoyance to compute every time I want a few chords to match E mixolydian? Further, let's say I wanted to harmonized a scale over an E A D progression. Do you think I want to calculate the above for EVERY key until something contains E A D? No. I want to scan a chart. Do you now understand why I want a chart?
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 26, 2013,
#17
Quote by AlanHB
TS, no need for modes, keys will cover all you need.


Ok, then which scale will harmonize over these chords: E A D.
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Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 26, 2013,
#18
The OP has been excessively trolling a variety of guitar forums in recent days, asking loaded questions and then arguing with people who give answers.

Engage at your own risk.
#19
Quote by MissingSomethin
. Do you now understand why I want a chart?


Microsoft Excel works great for charts. Compute, then input it to a spread sheet. Tadaaaa!
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#20
Why would you need a goddamn chart for something like that? Major Key chords: I(Major) ii(Minor) iii(Minor) IV(Major) V(Major) vi(Minor) vii-squigglesign(Diminished). Done.
#21
Quote by AlanHB
TS, no need for modes, keys will cover all you need.

This is all that needs to be said.

Quote by thechaostheory
Well... What I would do is just take the normal chord chart and alter the chords in it.

So our chords in A are: A Bm C#m D E F#m G#* (I'm using * as a diminished).

Let's take A Dorian.

[snip because nonsense]
[/snip]

Or we could just realize that what actually happens when we do that is we have a key with a few non-diatonic chords. Modes don't have progressions (no matter what someone tells you), because a progression implies harmony. Modes are only concerned with melody. Plain and simple.

Quote by MissingSomethin
Ok, then which scale will harmonize over these chords: E A D.

All of them, technically. However, since that sounds like it's in the key of A major to me, I'd pick a scale that was major and in the key of A.

Quote by Morphogenesis26
Why would you need a goddamn chart for something like that? Major Key chords: I(Major) ii(Minor) iii(Minor) IV(Major) V(Major) vi(Minor) vii-squigglesign(Diminished). Done.

Because he's too busy thinking that he needs to memorize all the notes of every key, every scale, etc. What he should be doing is memorizing the intervals, as you aptly represented them for the major keys.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 27, 2013,
#22
Quote by MissingSomethin
Ok, then which scale will harmonize over these chords: E A D.


As stated above this most likely a progression in A major.

Alternatively if the tonal center is E, the D maj is borrowed from the parallel minor. You use a b7 accidental over that chord to accommodate for clashes, and that's about it.

Keys (or the theory of "Keys" if you will) were developed so that you wouldn't have to be restricted to diatonic chord progressions or melodies.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#23
Quote by HotspurJr
The OP has been excessively trolling a variety of guitar forums in recent days, asking loaded questions and then arguing with people who give answers.

Engage at your own risk.

Nice work Columbo

I still honestly can't tell if he's a troll or just someone who's incredibly stubborn and simply refuses to believe that the things he's decided he wants to learn simply don't work in the way he thinks.

The minor chord thing still baffles me, if you "know how to harmonise the major scale" how could you possibly NOT know how and when to use a minor chord?
Actually called Mark!

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#24
The frustrations for the TS are general consequences of Roman Numerals and Alphabet Names being too obscure for conceiving innate relativity with harmony . By default it seems these models suppress the musician, conditioning them with a strict allegiance with memorizing symbols and patterns while remaining ignorant of how to further extrapolate the harmony or tonality they learn . Its like we learn 1 + 1 = 2 yet remain unable in knowing what 1+2= unless we had first memorized the answer. Really even the “Major Key Chord Chart” is insignificant for anyone with the basic understanding of diatonic harmony .
Any affluent musician soon realizes that most music we like to play never remains asphyxiated upon only one scale ,or mode ,or rather any dynamic music always suggests some degree of variant mixture because using only the diatonic skeleton is very limiting on the Tonic resulting in the music sounding static and dull.
Fortunately though, with our allegiance to the Dominant, Tonic , and Subdominant we may potentially conceive every aspect of scales, modes, or chords , and their respective tonalities , thus liberating the musician or composer from the mental baggage associated with the obscure affirmations of Roman Numerals or Alphabet. e.g.

Ionian Tonality . D T S
Dorian Tonality d t S
Mixolydian Tonality d T S
Aeolian Tonality d t s

Obviously, most songs imply using more chords than the quality of Dominant,Tonic,and Subdominant used to generate these four tonal profiles, but this is because every D,T & S chord quality has the potentially of generating two other chords via “Parallels”
thereby offering us every Diatonic Chord for any Key .

May I now introduce to you :
The mighty "whole tone change" aka Tonic Parallel
By raising the 5th of a Major Chord a "whole tone" : generates the Dp Tp Sp
By lowering the Root of a Minor Chord a "whole tone": generated the dP tP sP

The mighty "half tone change" aka Tonic Counter Parallel
By lowering the Root of a Major Chord a "half tone":generates Dc Tc Sc
By raising the 5th of a Minor Chord by "half tone ":generates dC tC sC

By developing our awareness to the fundamentals prescribed here we soon realize that attempting to utilize the Roman Numeral or Alphabet model becomes inferior and too obscure when aspiring greater agility with the dynamics of tonal harmony.
Last edited by TheJasbo at May 27, 2013,
#25
Ok that's it. I'm gonna crack wooooooaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#26
On a related note I've just invented a square wheel because I think round ones are too obscure for conceiving innate rollativity with the ground
Actually called Mark!

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#27
Quote by steven seagull
On a related note I've just invented a square wheel because I think round ones are too obscure for conceiving innate rollativity with the ground


We are not inventing anything "new" here. Being endowed by "Functional Harmony" has been embraced by all the great composers since the Germans of the late Romantic Period declared the Dominant,Tonic, and Subdominant hierarchy for all tonality .
#29
Quote by MissingSomethin
Ok, then which scale will harmonize over these chords: E A D.


why do you need a scale

just make some music you moron it's not that hard
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You win. I'm done here.
#30
Quote by macashmack
A nice little mixolydian vamp is to play a I-bVII in whatever key.

the bVII is the minor dominant parallel of a Mixolydian Tonic. e.g. T-dP
Last edited by TheJasbo at May 27, 2013,
#31
^^^ Have you sought to not acknowledge keys or modes? Neither of those two systems would yield this conclusion so I must assume you've created your own system.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#32
Quote by MissingSomethin
So, no chart? I want a quick reference sheet for both modes.

I how how to harmonize a scale, I just don't want to manually recalculate each set of chords every time I need to.



Yeah, no chart. It doesn't work that way. The fact that you ask such a question, shows you don't know what's going on. The fact that others respond with chords and suggestions, shows they don't either. It's the blind leading the blind.

The problem with your question is the question. Modes don't work that way. We aren't being deliberately obtuse or mystical here, or trying to hide anything from you.

That's not how a modal progression/vamp works. If you insist persisting upon this line of thought that you have, you'll only end up in complete and total darkness.

Sorry, not a single shortcut is out there. Not one, not even a teeny one.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at May 27, 2013,
#33
Quote by TheJasbo
The frustrations for the TS are general consequences of Roman Numerals and Alphabet Names being too obscure for conceiving innate relativity with harmony . By default it seems these models suppress the musician, conditioning them with a strict allegiance with memorizing symbols and patterns while remaining ignorant of how to further extrapolate the harmony or tonality they learn . Its like we learn 1 + 1 = 2 yet remain unable in knowing what 1+2= unless we had first memorized the answer. Really even the “Major Key Chord Chart” is insignificant for anyone with the basic understanding of diatonic harmony .
Any affluent musician soon realizes that most music we like to play never remains asphyxiated upon only one scale ,or mode ,or rather any dynamic music always suggests some degree of variant mixture because using only the diatonic skeleton is very limiting on the Tonic resulting in the music sounding static and dull.
Fortunately though, with our allegiance to the Dominant, Tonic , and Subdominant we may potentially conceive every aspect of scales, modes, or chords , and their respective tonalities , thus liberating the musician or composer from the mental baggage associated with the obscure affirmations of Roman Numerals or Alphabet. e.g.

Ionian Tonality . D T S
Dorian Tonality d t S
Mixolydian Tonality d T S
Aeolian Tonality d t s

Obviously, most songs imply using more chords than the quality of Dominant,Tonic,and Subdominant used to generate these four tonal profiles, but this is because every D,T & S chord quality has the potentially of generating two other chords via “Parallels”
thereby offering us every Diatonic Chord for any Key .

May I now introduce to you :
The mighty "whole tone change" aka Tonic Parallel
By raising the 5th of a Major Chord a "whole tone" : generates the Dp Tp Sp
By lowering the Root of a Minor Chord a "whole tone": generated the dP tP sP

The mighty "half tone change" aka Tonic Counter Parallel
By lowering the Root of a Major Chord a "half tone":generates Dc Tc Sc
By raising the 5th of a Minor Chord by "half tone ":generates dC tC sC

By developing our awareness to the fundamentals prescribed here we soon realize that attempting to utilize the Roman Numeral or Alphabet model becomes inferior and too obscure when aspiring greater agility with the dynamics of tonal harmony.


I don't even follow you.

Let's Use C:

G C F

Dorian

Am7 Dm7 and G7

Mixolydian

Dm7 G7 and Fmaj7


Whole Tone change CEG

C E A - is an Am in 1st inversion we can also do the same thing, by calling it a vi chord

Lowering the root of a minor a whole step

D F A

C F A

Is an F major chord in 2nd inversion

It's a ii directing to an IV.

Half Tone Change

CEG

B E G 2nd inversion E minor

A C F F major 1st inversion.

OK, if that's your "insight", my question is:

AND.....THEREFORE....?

What's the exact point here, because 6 one way, is half a dozen another. There's nothing changing here that I can see.

You could, and I do, conceptualize the functions as such:

Tonic's I ii vi the 2 resembles a rootless maj7 and a vi resembles a maj 6 chord

Dom V and Viio the V is Dom and the viio resembles a rootless Dom7

Sub Dom IV and ii The IV is the Sub Dom and the ii resembles a maj 6 chord.

What am I missing, in your opinion?

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at May 27, 2013,
#34
I learned modes as a launching point for improvisation. After I learned their structure and their function, I broke away from them. It was probably a 6 month process of learning, exploring and then incorporating ideas from them into actually musical play.

Posts like TheJasbo's and threads like this one make me want to take every guitar player that thinks that "learning theory" will make them a better player and bash their brain so hard they need to relearn how to walk.

Real. Like it's not that big of a deal and you'll honestly make more music if you just use your ear, listen to music, learn the ways that people play and make it part of your playing.
Reading books and learning shapes doesn't make you a better musician, it doesn't teach you theory, it wont help you write music, it will only make you some sort of "theory" spitting robot who thinks that "well if it's Dm and I'm in C Maj, then the DORIAN scale will work here."
Rather than like "oh hey, this is the feel of the song, this is where the music is heading, I'm going to play an idea that I feel will accentuate the music and the general direction and feel of it."

Please, mods.. Can we seriously just close any thread that has the word "modes" any where in the title/OP?
Quote by Banjocal
sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
#36
Quote by Sean0913
I don't even follow you

What am I missing, in your opinion?

Well you seem to “follow “ close enough. I was merely elaborating upon the basic fundamentals of Functional Harmony where instead of analyzing music in the strict , yet ironically obscure, linear perspectives of Roman Numerals or Alphabet that all we need are the “abuser friendly” affirmations of the Dominant,Tonic and Subdominant and their respective Parallels.
As your post reveals, being an experienced musician you’re fortunately endowed knowing chord functions are the essence of music ; not some random collection of complex modes or scales that most novice students naively attempt to conceptualize and struggle with .So for example when mentoring a fellow musician I simply enlighten them by revealing how various simple Cadential Chains are generating the music at hand ,thereby freeing them from all the “mental baggage” , now instead of nurturing any cumbersome theoretical analysis they may progressively go forth on a journey embracing the greater dynamics of tonality.
An indispensable source of music knowledge from Roman Numerals, Tab or Staff may then easily be exploited by a musician of any instrument when transcribing into Functional Harmony. I am not a fluent sight reader and so from my experience these standard formats turn into an obscure mess proving to be very cumbersome when transcribing or perceiving dynamic chord mixture, modulations,cadences and turnarounds as found in Classical, Ragtime ,Jazz etc.
Any isolated chord is easy to play or give a name, its the context and extrapolation of chords that change the entire game .
#37
Quote by Morphogenesis26
Why would you need a goddamn chart for something like that? Major Key chords: I(Major) ii(Minor) iii(Minor) IV(Major) V(Major) vi(Minor) vii-squigglesign(Diminished). Done.


Because you still need to keep track of sharps.
In E major, what is the vi? Is it C or C#?
It takes a moment to think it out.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
#38
Quote by AlanHB
As stated above this most likely a progression in A major.

Alternatively if the tonal center is E, the D maj is borrowed from the parallel minor. You use a b7 accidental over that chord to accommodate for clashes, and that's about it.

Keys (or the theory of "Keys" if you will) were developed so that you wouldn't have to be restricted to diatonic chord progressions or melodies.


Wrong if it's actually in E.
In that case, A D E is harmonized from the E Mixolydian scale.
Looks like I'm not the only one who needs a chart.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
#39
Quote by Sean0913
Yeah, no chart. It doesn't work that way. The fact that you ask such a question, shows you don't know what's going on. The fact that others respond with chords and suggestions, shows they don't either. It's the blind leading the blind.

The problem with your question is the question. Modes don't work that way. We aren't being deliberately obtuse or mystical here, or trying to hide anything from you.

That's not how a modal progression/vamp works. If you insist persisting upon this line of thought that you have, you'll only end up in complete and total darkness.

Sorry, not a single shortcut is out there. Not one, not even a teeny one.

Best,

Sean


Sorry, but you obviously haven't even the faintest clue what we're talking about.
Do you even know what a harmonized scale is? I don't think you even understand the question for such an idiotic response you posted above.

Let me ask you, what chords can you construct from the notes of G mixolydian?
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
Last edited by MissingSomethin at May 28, 2013,
#40
The Jasbo is obviously a troll who us typing nonsensical gibberish that sounds plausible. I bet that stuff he spews is just generated from a program. Jasbo is not a real poster, he is a troll who is yanking your chain with pseuo-scientific sounding music theory gibberish. It's just random words. I wish there was an ignore button here. He might even be a bot.
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
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