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#1
Hey.
I have recently gotten a problem with my amp(engl thunder 50 combo)
when i plug my guitar into the preamp i get very very low sound, like extremely low...
but when i run it through the fx inputs its all good.
pretty new to tube amps and i can't really figure out whats the problem, if it was fuse or bad tubes i wouldn't get sound in fx inputs? or am i wrong?
could it be the preamp tubes perhaps?

any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
#2
....waaaaaait. You're running your guitar into the FX return? Wat?

Preamp tubes being bad seems legit to me.
#3
yeah just tried it cuz to see if it worked guitar->ds-1->fx return will it harm my amp to do it that way until i get the preamp fixed?
#4
I don't know if it'll be good or not to be honest. It seems to me that the DS-1 is acting as your preamp in this case, which I guess means it's okay...ish.
#5
Quote by madx85
yeah just tried it cuz to see if it worked guitar->ds-1->fx return will it harm my amp to do it that way until i get the preamp fixed?


I think that's okay.
Before buying new tubes, I would check out guitar input on the amp. Maybe something is wrong with it.
#6
Quote by JackovSlayer
I think that's okay.
Before buying new tubes, I would check out guitar input on the amp. Maybe something is wrong with it.


It really sounds like bad preamp tubes. Can't hurt to wiggle the cable at the input jack.

If all is good going into FX return then the power section is A ok.
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See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#7
thnx for the replies, i'll take a look at the input and if it's all good i will take it to the shop and replace tubes

cheers
#8
I wouldn't plug your guitar straight into your FX return. There's impedance issues in the same way you wouldn't plug certain power amps into certain speakers. It might not be damaging, maybe just real quiet, but i wouldn't want to risk it with valves!
#10
Buy a preamp tube and try it in each position until the problem goes away.
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Cathbard Amplification
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#11
checked the input, seemed fine so now i ordered preamptube. hope it solves the problem
#13
Double check:
* Single coils vs humbuckers

* Electrical grounding and clean or bad line power

* Location minimizing signal interference from computers, lights,
home circuit-breaker power panels.

* Get one or two noise reduction/suppression pedals into your chain(s).


All of my setups start from the typical 120v wall power source to:

* Furman Line Conditioners, to

* General Radio Variac Auto-Transformer that lowers the voltage
to 110v to 115v, whatever I want, depending upon the amplifier
being played (modern vs vintage).

* Then I use a Boss NS-2 Noise Suppressor right out of my guitar.
I'm experimenting with using a boost pedal near the guitar to drive
the guitar signal through the chain, and then I'm experimenting
with using another noise suppression pedal as the last pedal in my chain.


Bottom line, I'm suggesting the the electrical environment can
be a cause of your problems. And, the electrical environment
has many areas to investigate.
Last edited by Toppscore at May 30, 2013,
#14
Two noise gates? Are you on drugs?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#15
Yeah, why would you use two noise supressors? And why do you plug your guitar straight into one? Noise supressor should be the last pedal in chain in front of the amp or should be used in the effects loop.
#16
also, what the hell do noise suppressors help if he's getting no sound from his amp
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#17
Quote by Cathbard
Two noise gates? Are you on drugs?



I am on virtual drugs Said I was experimenting.


I feel my single coil Strats/Teles generate enough or too much
noise by themselves. Keeping the situation the same, when I
substitute a humbucker guitar, the guitar noise is gone.


I'm experimenting to put a noise suppressor first thing right after
the guitar, to send a more noiseless signal through the chain.
This way the effects pedals or rackmount effects preamps
will get a clean signal to work with or process.


Then, (along with checking out this experiment) . . . .
I put my MXR Micro Amp or MXR CAE Boost Line Driver after
the Boss NS-2 to give the signal a slight boost through the chain.

Then my wah

This set up usually wipes out most all noise.

But, if one or more pedals increase the noise,
I'm experimenting with adding another noise suppressor ~ Zoom ZNR
as the last pedal before the amp.

All experimental. Means I get drugs if this works
So far have tried a few setups. I like it.
But, need to Plug-N-Play with more of my trouble pedals
and see what happens. I'll report my failures or successes.
#18
Quote by JackovSlayer
Yeah, why would you use two noise supressors? And why do you plug your guitar straight into one? Noise supressor should be the last pedal in chain in front of the amp or should be used in the effects loop.



Interesting thought that I'll try is to have no pedals
except for my Boss NS-2.

Guitar ~ Boss NS-2 ~ Amp

Again, my freakin' Strats/Teles generate too much noise.
Just got the Boss NS-2 & Zoom ZNR in, so it's experiment time.
#20
Two gates will increase the latency before it all switches on. Just put one at the end of the chain or in the loop. Two is not only unnecessary it is detrimental.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#21
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
I think you should keep your experiments to yourself



Whoa!!! It knows how to "think" . . . .
You have thought?
Or is "thought" having you?
#22
Quote by Cathbard
Two gates will increase the latency before it all switches on. Just put one at the end of the chain or in the loop. Two is not only unnecessary it is detrimental.



You may be right.
You may be right within what you know.
There maybe "right" in domains you have not experienced.
This what unabashed experimentation is all about.

Already, having the Boss NS-2 being the first pedal, works great.
With very limited first stages of beta testing, one NR pedal
at each end of the chain "seems" OK. Will experiment further.

Again, you maybe right
You may not be right
I'm having fun experimenting
Last edited by Toppscore at Jun 1, 2013,
#23
He's right.
We've got more experience than you, and know that 2 noise gates is an idiotic idea.
Not to mention recommending a noise gate to "fix" an amp that is making no sound to begin with, is the stupidest suggestion I've ever seen.

There's a reason Cath's on the Who to Listen to List.
He's got decades of experience.
You have no clue what you're talking about, as usual
#24
Quote by Toppscore
Whoa!!! It knows how to "think" . . . .
You have thought?
Or is "thought" having you?

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#25
madx85 - any luck? Did you get your new tubes yet? Have you tried swapping your existing preamp tubes around like I suggested? Sometimes you can figure out which tube is bunk by doing that as different tubes handle different aspects of the signal path. Also, if you rotated all of the preamp tubes around (tube rolling) and there was no change, then I'd be more likely to say that that is not your problem. It could be a number of things actually, but tube rolling doesn't cost anything.

I made a little video showing how to swap preamp tubes if you are interested - I will post it.


Quote by Toppscore
Whoa!!! It knows how to "think" . . . .
You have thought?
Or is "thought" having you?

Yep. That's why my threads get stickied and propped and your threads turn out like this:


#26
OMG what happened? Why did Toppscore hijack this thread and why did he start talking about noise gates? That's just off topic. TS isn't having any noise problems. He just gets a really weak sound out of his amp. And I don't see how buying a noise gate would solve TS's problem.
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#27
Quote by darkwolf291
He's right. We've got more experience than you, and know that 2 noise gates is an idiotic idea. Not to mention recommending a noise gate to "fix" an amp that is making no sound to begin with, is the stupidest suggestion I've ever seen.
There's a reason Cath's on the Who to Listen to List. He's got decades of experience.
You have no clue what you're talking about, as usual



DW ~ Good for decades of experience. Hope you are up to modern times.
No one knows it all, especially one who shouts-out as a know-it-all

You can't see think read or imagine beyond your clueless dark hole.
There is soooooooooo much you do not know and not even know
what it is that you don't know or what exists beyond you thinking.
Imagine if you were the source of all knowledge???

Yeah Yeah Yeah ~ Again. You are so perfect.
But, only to yourself and within your limited thoughts.
Wake up, DarkW, Wake up! We are back in Kansas!
#28
Quote by Toppscore
DW ~ Good for decades of experience. Hope you are up to modern times.
No one knows it all, especially one who shouts-out as a know-it-all

You can't see think read or imagine beyond your clueless dark hole.
There is soooooooooo much you do not know and not even know
what it is that you don't know or what exists beyond you thinking.
Imagine if you were the source of all knowledge???

Yeah Yeah Yeah ~ Again. You are so perfect.
But, only to yourself and within your limited thoughts.
Wake up, DarkW, Wake up! We are back in Kansas!

Dude GTFO.

You are consistently wrong and yet you are acting like a arrogant asshole.

You don't have any trouble shooting experience that is worth a damn, it shows in every post.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
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#29
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
madx85 - any luck? Did you get your new tubes yet? Have you tried swapping your existing preamp tubes around like I suggested? Sometimes you can figure out which tube is bunk by doing that as different tubes handle different aspects of the signal path. Also, if you rotated all of the preamp tubes around (tube rolling) and there was no change, then I'd be more likely to say that that is not your problem. It could be a number of things actually, but tube rolling doesn't cost anything.

I made a little video showing how to swap preamp tubes if you are interested - I will post it.


Yep. That's why my threads get stickied and propped and your threads turn out like this:





Hey. no tubes yet, out of stock atm. i am actually sitting in my music room now trying different things, gonna try the tuberolling and try switching em around. but all tubes are glowing at least but can they still be bad? not too familiar with tubes etc...
#30
Yes, they can still be bad even if they glow. I'll be real curious to see if there is a difference when you roll them. For the record, you can also run the amp with no preamp tubes at all and it won't hurt anything. That is not really a troubleshooting tip for you, more of just an FYI.

I played a Thunder 60 head once - cool amp.


Me tube rolling. You can also try the tap test.
http://s545.photobucket.com/user/buckethead_311/media/Amp%20stuff/Microphonicpreamptube.mp4.html
#31
Quote by Toppscore
You may be right.
You may be right within what you know.
There maybe "right" in domains you have not experienced.
This what unabashed experimentation is all about.

Already, having the Boss NS-2 being the first pedal, works great.
With very limited first stages of beta testing, one NR pedal
at each end of the chain "seems" OK. Will experiment further.

Again, you maybe right
You may not be right
I'm having fun experimenting

Wtf? No - you're an idiot.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#32
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Yes, they can still be bad even if they glow. I'll be real curious to see if there is a difference when you roll them. For the record, you can also run the amp with no preamp tubes at all and it won't hurt anything. That is not really a troubleshooting tip for you, more of just an FYI.

I played a Thunder 60 head once - cool amp.


Me tube rolling. You can also try the tap test.
http://s545.photobucket.com/user/buckethead_311/media/Amp%20stuff/Microphonicpreamptube.mp4.html



There were not much difference when rolling, only a little. think i found the culprit though...one of the tubes were barely lit as the others were fine, i removed the one and nothing changed so i guess its broken...
#34
Quote by madx85
There were not much difference when rolling, only a little. think i found the culprit though...one of the tubes were barely lit as the others were fine, i removed the one and nothing changed so i guess its broken...

Just because a preamp tube is dimly lit doesn't mean it is broken. I have some that you can barely see lit and they work fine. Now if it was super bright - that might be something else (pin arcing or something).

What might be helpful is if you can look up preamp tube placement descriptions in your Engl user manual. I guess you'll have your new tubes soon anyway so hopefully it is something that simple. Get some contact cleaner (Dioxit) while you are at it for the tube pins. What kind of tubes did you order?

Keep us posted.
#35
Actually havn't even given the manual a thought lol i ordered some electro-harmonics ecc-83's(12ax7) a friend said they were pretty nice. Hope it solves it.
#38
hehe tube newb as i am...whats wrong with those ones? i'll try em out and if i don't like the sound i'll just order new...at least i'll know if the tubes are the problem

btw thnx alot for all the help
#40
Quote by madx85
hehe tube newb as i am...whats wrong with those ones? i'll try em out and if i don't like the sound i'll just order new...at least i'll know if the tubes are the problem

btw thnx alot for all the help

They just don't go well in some amps. I have 5-6 of them laying around and in 1 of my heads.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
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