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#1
As a masculist, I think it's important to ensure that men and women are equal. So the gender wage gap always interested me, because I grew up in a time when it was widely accepted that women were equal with men, and yet I heard that women were paid significantly less than men, for the same exact jobs.

And yet recent studies suggest that the wage gap isn't discriminatory, but due to the different occupational tendencies and loci of women in the workforce. When comparing men and women, and their various earnings, it would be illogical to make a general comparison between the two genders if they typically work in different fields. Women dominate many fields, like social work, education, and health care. These fields tend to be less lucrative than many of the ones dominated by males. This discrepancy is due to the career choices made by the individual, which can no doubt be attributed to the nature of the gender difference (whether you believe it's socio-cultural, genetic, or both).

Nonetheless, when contrasting men and women in the same fields, it seems women are actually more likely to request raises, the wage gap is statistically insignificant (meaning there is not a significant enough difference to draw any conclusions, as at that point, the difference could be due to random or sampling errors), and that the reason there is such a discrepancy between male and female executives is because male executives put in more hours. It is worth noting, though, that the executive field is one that women seem to have difficulty breaking into. This is probably attributable to the fact that the people who have chosen executives were usually at an advanced age, or of a conservative mindset. This is something that is changing faster than ever.

I'd hazard a guess that when the generation that currently controls the majority of the executive industry is retired, and when their hires retire, the discrepancy between male and female executives will be negligible. (Not to mention that, at least in my school and many of the surrounding schools, the student body is over 50% female.)

What are your thoughts on the wage gap?

EDIT: someone intelligently suggested I cite the studies. And while it would certainly be in keeping with my character to ignore good advice, I'm actually going to not be a moron:

Oldie but goodie: http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1248&context=ilrreview

More recent: http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/job-distribution-by-gender

Not technically a study, but is based on studies: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/05/29/business/ap-ap-us-breadwinner-moms.html?partner=socialflow&smid=tw-nytimesbusiness&_r=0
Last edited by progdude93 at Jun 3, 2013,
#2
Quote by progdude93
As a masculist, I think it's important to ensure that men and women are equal.


Stopped reading right there.
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#3
Quote by progdude93
And yet recent studies suggest that the wage gap isn't discriminatory, but due to the different occupational tendencies and loci of women in the workforce.
Wanna actually cite the studies?
#4
Quote by adamgur96
Stopped reading right there.


Good. I only want people intelligent and adequately well-read to recognize the actual political history of masculism. Y'know, how it was the tails to Feminism's heads? Obviously not. Whoops.
#5
Oh boy this forum is really sensitive this week.

Just gonna sit back and observe another shitstorm

O.K.

“There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want.”
~ Bill Watterson


O__o
#6
Quote by progdude93
Good. I only want people intelligent and adequately well-read to recognize the actual political history of masculism. Y'know, how it was the tails to Feminism's heads? Obviously not. Whoops.

Tbh i'm not interested to get into the shitstorm that's coming, but i'll just say that it seems stupid to me to associate yourself with a group named after a certain gender and be for equality, rather than just be for equality, period.
I Have An Avant Garde Fetish....
Quote by Gantz92
Im in no way an amateur. I masturbate in public all the time.
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I can get an erection just by looking at a plastic cup, or a river.
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#8
Quote by psyks
Wanna actually cite the studies?


Sure.

Oldie but goodie: http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1248&context=ilrreview

More recent: http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap/job-distribution-by-gender

Not technically a study, but is based on studies: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/05/29/business/ap-ap-us-breadwinner-moms.html?partner=socialflow&smid=tw-nytimesbusiness&_r=0

Quote by adamgur96
Tbh i'm not interested to get into the shitstorm that's coming, but i'll just say that it seems stupid to me to associate yourself with a group named after a certain gender and be for equality, rather than just be for equality, period.


I mean, it was basically a joke.... I wouldn't call myself a masculist. I'm just a person. I also wanted to see who would realize that masculism isn't anti-feminism.
Last edited by progdude93 at Jun 3, 2013,
#10
I don't think it's going to be fun to watch, because nobody wants to have a discussion with me everyone just wants to eat their goddam popcorn and watch the goddam circus.
#11
If you didn't even clock the first sentence is a joke I don't know what you're doing with yourselves. I chuckled
#15
Quote by progdude93
I don't think it's going to be fun to watch, because nobody wants to have a discussion with me everyone just wants to eat their goddam popcorn and watch the goddam circus.

Is ok

Just wait until Due and those guys get here, we'll all have our circus to watch
I Have An Avant Garde Fetish....
Quote by Gantz92
Im in no way an amateur. I masturbate in public all the time.
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I can get an erection just by looking at a plastic cup, or a river.
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
Don't worry, rape will always find a back way in
#16
I think the height-difference wage gap is more intriguing.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#17
Quote by Todd Hart
I think the height-difference wage gap is more intriguing.

Patriarchy
#18
I don't know, I feel like due might immediately attack me for even suggesting that it could possible that the reasons women dominate certain fields and are dominated in others could be something other than the patriarchal system controlling women by impregnating them and forcing them to bear children and be out of the workforce for a while.

Or something.

Quote by Todd Hart
I think the height-difference wage gap is more intriguing.


I think the facial hair wage gap is more intriguing.
#19
Want to know the real wage gap? Compare the hourly wage of a man and a woman working at the same company in the same position. Any other method seems kind of pointless.
"Most people work just hard enough not to get fired and get paid just enough not to quit." - George Carlin
#21
Quote by LazyHardRocker
Want to know the real wage gap? Compare the hourly wage of a man and a woman working at the same company in the same position. Any other method seems kind of pointless.


That could be difficult to generalize.

Quote by willT08
If you didn't even clock the first sentence is a joke I don't know what you're doing with yourselves. I chuckled


I appreciate you
Last edited by progdude93 at Jun 3, 2013,
#22
Quote by progdude93
I don't know, I feel like due might immediately attack me for even suggesting that it could possible that the reasons women dominate certain fields and are dominated in others could be something other than the patriarchal system controlling women by impregnating them and forcing them to bear children and be out of the workforce for a while.
That's actually kind of true. I don't know about the whole "controlling women by impregnating" thing. In fact, it'd be ridiculous to assume men force them to have children to keep them down. But certain female dominated fields and male dominated fields could very well be the result of patriarchy.
#24
Quote by LazyHardRocker
Want to know the real wage gap? Compare the hourly wage of a man and a woman working at the same company in the same position. Any other method seems kind of pointless.

I get paid more than my male coworkers for the exact same thing. now what
cat
#25
Quote by guitarxo
I get paid more than my male coworkers for the exact same thing. now what

The feminists won.

Men, be sure to report to your nearest gender-reassignment center to convert to the new superior gender.
#26
Quote by The Madcap
That's actually kind of true. I don't know about the whole "controlling women by impregnating" thing. In fact, it'd be ridiculous to assume men force them to have children to keep them down. But certain female dominated fields and male dominated fields could very well be the result of patriarchy.


It would be naive to assume that patriarchy had no deterministic role in shaping occupational proclivities, but it would be logically unsupportable to claim that there is no genetic cause to these same occupational proclivities. I personally believe that both had a role. I don't know to what extent each role caused the discrepancy to be the way it is, but there are certainly some rather significant neurological differences between men and women in addition to the sociocultural differences.
#27
Quote by progdude93
It would be naive to assume that patriarchy had no deterministic role in shaping occupational proclivities, but it would be logically unsupportable to claim that there is no genetic cause to these same occupational proclivities. I personally believe that both had a role. I don't know to what extent each role caused the discrepancy to be the way it is, but there are certainly some rather significant neurological differences between men and women in addition to the sociocultural differences.
I dunno, dude. Take secretaries or receptionists. That's a job mainly done by females. More males have entered in recent years, but it's still female dominated. There's nothing about the physiology or female mind that give them an advantage to being a secretary. It's seen as an anti-masculine position for guys, and an acceptable position for females. It's like saying women are naturally better at serving and assisting a more successful person's needs. I think that's sexist.
#28
Quote by CoreysMonster
The feminists won.

Men, be sure to report to your nearest gender-reassignment center to convert to the new superior gender.

Oh, Corey...

*turns face away in shame*
#30
Quote by The Madcap
I dunno, dude. Take secretaries or receptionists. That's a job mainly done by females. More males have entered in recent years, but it's still female dominated. There's nothing about the physiology or female mind that give them an advantage to being a secretary. It's seen as an anti-masculine position for guys, and an acceptable position for females. It's like saying women are naturally better at serving and assisting a more successful person's needs. I think that's sexist.


I freely admit (and previously admitted) that patriarchy has a significant role, but your argument also raises a few questions:

1. The largest receptionist industry is the health care receptionist industry, which women already tend to dominate.
2. I never said that females make better secretaries than men because of their neurological differences. I said there are significant neurological differences that could explain some or a lot of the discrepancy.
3. Here are some fun facts. In Maryland, 51% of secretaries are female (these numbers are almost assuredly different in other states, but Maryland is one of the most modern states in America, so occupational trends in Maryland might well be foreshadowing). Almost 45% of secretaries are single, and many of them are young. About 75% of secretaries have a high school education or less, and while there are more lucrative job possibilities for men with limited education, most of those fields are based on manual labor which men are absolutely physiologically more suited for than women.
4. The position of secretary may not be lucrative or exciting, but it's dominated by women, not because they are forced into it, but because it's the best, and least demanding option for women who have limited education and need employment. Almost half of them have no other household income so they need jobs to survive.

I think your account leaves a lot to be desired. There is much that it does not explain.
#33
One of the interesting things is that males are promoted at a quicker/higher rate in the more female dominated professions.

A lot of this has to do with outside-of-work pressures for women. For example, women have to take off more time to take car of kids. Like if a kid is sick, the mom is much more likely to take off time to care for the child than the father. Additionally, a lot of women take off years to raise children. When they return to the workforce, they have to take a job at the level they left or lower, while men had those years to progress through the ranks. Of course there's also the idea that men are seen as more authoritative.

As for wage gap in terms of career field choice, it's more that girls are pressured into less lucrative fields while boys are urged to study areas that results in higher paying jobs. Girls perform equally (in some cases out perform) in the STEM education subjects up until high school, which is when the separation occurs. This is due to different social expectations for high school-aged boys and girls. But, even still, schools actually fail boys and girls

This all goes back to socialization of gender that starts in the womb. Boys are encouraged to explore/experiment/get dirty/etc, while girls are much more protected and are taught to be caregivers. So naturally adults fall into those roles as adults. And experimenting jobs tend to be higher paying, when caregiving is lower paying or not paying at all.

When dorks on the internet hear "discrimination" they tend to think of somebody actively holding somebody down. And then they think "I'm not actively discriminating against women; feminists are full of shit." And it's true that most discrimination faced by women, minorities, etc is not active. Where the struggle currently lies is the structural challenges these groups have to overcome. Currently, the structures in place favor white, straight, males (noyrprivlige). We won't see equality until structures favor equality. Doing this, though, is much easier said than done. And it won't be done if the favored group (straight white males) acknowledge that they are in favored position for success.

To sum everything I just said up in a buzzworthy sentence, most of the differences attributed to men and women are societal creations, and not naturally occurring things.

Also, lol at masculist
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#34
Quote by lolmnt
This all goes back to socialization of gender that starts in the womb.

Everything else you said was right on the money, but please for the love of God tell me how this is possible, because this frightens me.
#35
Quote by CoreysMonster
The feminists won.

Men, be sure to report to your nearest gender-reassignment center to convert to the new superior gender.

I experience a huge amount of misandry at my workplace and identify with what Corey says.


We need stronger advocacy groups for men to stop the tyrannical rule of the feminists.


Socialization of gender starts at least directly after birth. People treat babies very different based on their sex.
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#36
Quote by CoreysMonster
Everything else you said was right on the money, but please for the love of God tell me how this is possible, because this frightens me.

It has to do with the culture of pregnancy more than like pumping "Women are inferior" into a woman's uterus.

I'm a little busy or I'd explain it a little bit better, but hopefully that at least semi-explains it.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#37
Quote by progdude93
1. The largest receptionist industry is the health care receptionist industry, which women already tend to dominate.
Mmkay.
Quote by progdude93
2. I never said that females make better secretaries than men because of their neurological differences. I said there are significant neurological differences that could explain some or a lot of the discrepancy.
I never said you said that. I'm saying that other people think that.
Quote by progdude93
3. Here are some fun facts. In Maryland, 51% of secretaries are female (these numbers are almost assuredly different in other states, but Maryland is one of the most modern states in America, so occupational trends in Maryland might well be foreshadowing). Almost 45% of secretaries are single, and many of them are young. About 75% of secretaries have a high school education or less, and while there are more lucrative job possibilities for men with limited education, most of those fields are based on manual labor which men are absolutely physiologically more suited for than women.
I'm not just talking about Maryland. You know that.
Quote by progdude93
4. The position of secretary may not be lucrative or exciting, but it's dominated by women, not because they are forced into it, but because it's the best, and least demanding option for women who have limited education and need employment. Almost half of them have no other household income so they need jobs to survive.
Those are factors that men also have. However, that kind of position, like I said, is seen as anti-masculine or "girly." Many guys would find it insulting. That's a sexist attitude.
#39
Quote by The Madcap
Mmkay.I never said you said that. I'm saying that other people think that.I'm not just talking about Maryland. You know that.Those are factors that men also have. However, that kind of position, like I said, is seen as anti-masculine or "girly." Many guys would find it insulting. That's a sexist attitude.

Yep.


I've held a few positions that were secretaries essentially. It was never obvious but some people seemed to find it odd that I wasn't embarrassed about it.
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#40
women actually on average make more than men in every industry. look at the facts, guys.
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