#1
Tuning Drop d

Spanish Gypsy scale

e|-----------------------------5-6-8--------------------------------------|
B|-----------------------5-6-8--------------------------------------------|
G|-------------------6-7--------------------------------------------------|
D|-------------5-7-8------------------------------------------------------|
A|-----4-5-7-8------------------------------------------------------------|
D|-5-6--------------------------------------------------------------------|


Byzantine


e|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
B|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
G|-------------------6-7--------------------------------------------------|
D|------------4-5-7-8-----------------------------------------------------|
A|-----5-6----------------------------------------------------------------|
D|------------------------------------------------------------------------|

phrygian dominate

e|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
B|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
G|---------------------5-7-8-7-5------------------------------------------|
D|-------------4-5-7-8----------------------------------------------------|
A|-----5-6----------------------------------------------------------------|
D|------------------------------------------------------------------------|


I am trying to learn to scales and this is the research that I have found online. I was just making sure these was correct did not want to learn the wrong way.

Gypsy scale chromatic I found this online how on the d string is he getting those notes? is that just the scales notes played on just one string? can someone explain or give me sites to read please.

e|-----------------------------------------5-6-8-6-5------------------------------|
B|-----------------------------------5-6-8-----------8-6-5------------------------|
G|-----------------------------6-7-9-----------------------9-7-6------------------|
D|-----------------------5-7-8-----------------------------------8-7-5------------|
A|---------------4-5-7-8-----------------------------------------------8-7-5-4----|
D|-0-1-3-4-5-7-8--------------------------------------------------------------etc.|
#2
Moved to MT

*hides*
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#3
You do not need to learn scales to play guitar. As most people on the musicians talk forum will tell you they are not fundamentally important to playing the guitar. In fact, these scales are practically useless for the most part unless you are playing some funky weird music.

The only scales that you may ever need to know is the chromatic scale (all twelve tones), major/minor scale, pentatonic major/minor, and the blues scale (which is the pentatonic minor scale with an added b5).

Now you will see that if you google scales that there are many other scales, like whole-tone and hw/wh diminished, but for the most part scales are useless, unless you want to limit yourself with those notes in the scale.
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#4
You're new to theory and want to learn the Byzantine scale? Quite ambitious. To answer your last question, the notes on the lowest string are just the scale continuing as low as the guitar can take them out of the position you would probably play the scale in.
#5
Trust me bro, if you're starting with those then you're definitely learning to scale wrong.
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#6
Start with the basic major scale and learn all 12 of them everywhere on the neck. If you still have an appetite for scales after that, those goofy ones will still be there.

Quote by dumbface12
You do not need to learn scales to play guitar. As most people on the musicians talk forum will tell you they are not fundamentally important to playing the guitar. In fact, these scales are practically useless for the most part unless you are playing some funky weird music.

The only scales that you may ever need to know is the chromatic scale (all twelve tones), major/minor scale, pentatonic major/minor, and the blues scale (which is the pentatonic minor scale with an added b5).

Now you will see that if you google scales that there are many other scales, like whole-tone and hw/wh diminished, but for the most part scales are useless, unless you want to limit yourself with those notes in the scale.


Is this sarcasm?
#8
Quote by cdgraves


Is this sarcasm?


Nope, when will you hear a composer say that they composed something using one scale? It is very rare even when composing solos.

Many times learning scales can cause yourself to want to play in box shaped patterns, which can be very limiting as I know from personal experience. So, many times learning scales can be very harmful to someone's creativity because it causes them to think as everything like a scale, that they can only play the notes of the scale or it will sound bad.
Yeah I'm that guy who says I'm right
but more than likely is wrong

It happens doesn't it?
#9
Quote by dumbface12
Nope, when will you hear a composer say that they composed something using one scale? It is very rare even when composing solos.

Many times learning scales can cause yourself to want to play in box shaped patterns, which can be very limiting as I know from personal experience. So, many times learning scales can be very harmful to someone's creativity because it causes them to think as everything like a scale, that they can only play the notes of the scale or it will sound bad.


Ever heard of modulation(relative and parallel)?
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#10
Quote by dumbface12
Nope, when will you hear a composer say that they composed something using one scale? It is very rare even when composing solos.

Many times learning scales can cause yourself to want to play in box shaped patterns, which can be very limiting as I know from personal experience. So, many times learning scales can be very harmful to someone's creativity because it causes them to think as everything like a scale, that they can only play the notes of the scale or it will sound bad.


If learning new things makes you a worse player, you should probably just quit. Players who can't figure out that scales are just sets of notes are uncreative or just lazy. I don't give advice to accommodate laziness.
#11
Is anybody going to tackle the TS question?

Since I'm going to say something stupid like "the Spanish Gypsy Chromatic scale occurs because of the semitone differences between same voice chords allows you to use the chord tones from those 2 chords as if you were playing in two keys at once". And then you're going to start about how they're really accidentals and I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground.

Or you could get side tracked by "duimbhump" or whatever he calls himself and ignore the TS' question altogether.

But, since more than one person around here has had, "stop learning scales and modes they're dumb and useless" in your sigs, it must be frustrating having that crap thrown in your face, so y'all should troll him back real good, while at the same time preventing me from explaining any music theory altogether.

TS, the Spanish Gypsy scale, the Byzantine Scale, and the Phrygian Dominant, all share a 3 semitone gap in their structure, and emphasize a minor second above the tonic. They all have a somewhat "exotic" sound because of that.

So, Google the scales by name, as well as the "Andalusian Cadence", Jewish Magid scale, and have yourself a middle eastern/flamenco sort of jam session with them.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jun 9, 2013,
#12
Quote by dumbface12
Nope, when will you hear a composer say that they composed something using one scale? It is very rare even when composing solos.

Many times learning scales can cause yourself to want to play in box shaped patterns, which can be very limiting as I know from personal experience. So, many times learning scales can be very harmful to someone's creativity because it causes them to think as everything like a scale, that they can only play the notes of the scale or it will sound bad.


wow 6 months ago a lot of people would agree with you here. i'm on your side.

i cede that scales aren't useless as they are a tool (but then again, so are modes, so take that as you will), but for the most part after you have a good ear, a strong knowledge of intervals, and can form relationships based on tension and resolution, scales will be trumped in the long run. i won't ignore they exist, but i definitely don't prioritize them.

+1 as well to just learning the chromatic and the basic major/minors. if you want to learn fancy names for arbitrary sets of notes, do so after you've got the fundamentals.

it's a lot easier to learn to utilize a heavily scalar approach (IE CST) after you've begun to understand the meat and bones of theory than to go backwards. i've done things both ways, and looking back all the year and a half of scales and modes "work" i put out ended up as a bunch of shitty sweeping and scale runs on WIP gp5 files i'm embarrassed to share

to say it's "lazy" for a guitarist to not realize that scales are just a shape is to undermine the fact that most "guitar theory"-based curriculums insist that scales are the end-all be-all of musical excellence. don't believe me? spend 10 minutes in the UG lessons pages. it's embarrassing and it's a perpetuation of ignorance. to say that scales aren't vastly overprioritized in the guitar world is silly - any other instrument lessons i took growing up involved scales, yes, but they were dexterity and warm-up exercises and the 10-15 minutes a day i spent on scales and arpeggios were immediately trumped by the 45+ minutes i took learning existing pieces and focusing on learning in-context. something tells me TS isn't planning on doing anything with his knowledge of exotic scales but run up and down them and play power chords until he gets bored and finds some new shapes that are handed to him on the internet
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#13
Let me try to answer this *sigh*

1-The Spanish Gypsy(double harmonic apparently) scale intervals are: 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7(sometimes with a minor seventh interval instead of major). So starting on G the tab seems to be correct.

2-Byzantine : 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7. same >_>


3-Phrygian dominant: Same thing again. 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7.

So basically they're the same thing with different names.

4- That seems to be like the chromatic scale with a few omitted intervals - major second and tritone.
"Reality is merely an illusion albeit a very persistent one"
- Albert Einstein


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#14
Quote by dumbface12
Nope, when will you hear a composer say that they composed something using one scale? It is very rare even when composing solos.


Most solos are one scale. The major or minor scale. Most solos, in terms of quantity, are strictly diatonic.

If accidentals are employed they are (in terms of frequency) the b5 and maj 6 in minor keys, and the b5, b3 and b7 in major keys.

Stuff like the gypsy/byzantine/double harmonic minor would realistically be used in less than 1% of solos.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#15
Nope, when will you hear a composer say that they composed something using one scale? It is very rare even when composing solos.


Sorry when I created this sentence I totally forgot about the world of rock/pop/country/etc. and forgot that most of those solos/melodies are diatonic.

However I would like to add that the reason why I responded to the TS question the way I did was so that the TS would realize that these scales are not important if new to theory as the title says. And the reason why I did not explain about the music theory behind these scales is
1. I'm not gonna lie I've never seen most of these scales before except for the Spanish Gypsy and Phrygian Dominant
2. Explaining the scales like Captain Cranky kindly did for the TS would be the equivalent to a College Professor giving a lecture about Yang-mills theory to a high-school student who just started learning physics.

So, not trying to create a flame war which I'm sure I have inadvertently created, but that is the reasoning and as a result will be my last post for this thread which I suggest to avoid a foreseeable flame war I suggest no one else post, as the TS's question has already been answered.
Yeah I'm that guy who says I'm right
but more than likely is wrong

It happens doesn't it?
#16
Quote by dumbface12

2. Explaining the scales like Captain Cranky kindly did for the TS would be the equivalent to a College Professor giving a lecture about Yang-mills theory to a high-school student who just started learning physics.
Let's see if I've understood you correctly.

You dismiss the TS' question with "theme and variations", on, "scales and modes are dumb and useless, don't bother learning them", and I'm the dick. Is that about right?
#17
Those scales exist to work around specific harmonic contexts, so unless you're actually playing certain chords, the scales won't sound good. You don't even need to know the names or patterns of the scale, just the notes in the chords. Scales are derived from harmony.
#18
Quote by cdgraves
Those scales exist to work around specific harmonic contexts, so unless you're actually playing certain chords, the scales won't sound good. You don't even need to know the names or patterns of the scale, just the notes in the chords. Scales are derived from harmony.
Which is why I specified he should look up the "Andalusian Cadence", which provides one of the few native environments for the scales in question. Well that, and Jewish chants.
#19
I'm pretty sure the standard minor scales cover this Andalusian nonsense just fine.

Also the modal phrygian dominant thing implies the incorrect chord as tonic (V7). It's just a wanky way of saying 7b9 arpeggio. It also contains a goofy +2 interval that shits up any scalewise melodies.
#20
Quote by dumbface12
You do not need to learn scales to play guitar. As most people on the musicians talk forum will tell you they are not fundamentally important to playing the guitar. In fact, these scales are practically useless for the most part unless you are playing some funky weird music.

The only scales that you may ever need to know is the chromatic scale (all twelve tones), major/minor scale, pentatonic major/minor, and the blues scale (which is the pentatonic minor scale with an added b5).

Now you will see that if you google scales that there are many other scales, like whole-tone and hw/wh diminished, but for the most part scales are useless, unless you want to limit yourself with those notes in the scale.


I agree for the most part..except scales are useless. But start with the chromatic scale..practice it and play it everywhere Its the only one worth learning.

The A minor chormatic scale goes like this

----------------------------------------------------1-2-3-4
------------------------------------------2-3-4-5---
--------------------------------2-3-4-5----
------------------------3-4-5-6------
--------------4-5-6-7--------------
----5-6-7-8--------------------------
#21
Quote by cdgraves
I'm pretty sure the standard minor scales cover this Andalusian nonsense just fine.

Also the modal phrygian dominant thing implies the incorrect chord as tonic (V7). It's just a wanky way of saying 7b9 arpeggio. It also contains a goofy +2 interval that shits up any scalewise melodies.
Well that's only when you're going up. The Andalusian Cadence resolves downward, and in that direction has a semitone leading across the entire II > I chords.

What I get the biggest kick out of, is that a good many hit records have been made employing Phrygian motifs, Andalusian Cadences, double harmonic major, whatever you want to call it.

Yet when you get here to UG, the rest of the world is doing it wrong.

So, the wind up of it is, I'd rather listen to "One More cup of Coffee", "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", "White Rabbit", "Pinball Wizard", than most of the explanations of why this is wrong.

In fact, I used to scream about "Pinball Wizard" all the time. I'd get as close to the stage as I could, then scream, "Hey Pete, you're playing in wrong, it's supposed to be in E Phrygian Dominant instead of that nasty F#/B" And yet the song completely avoids any stumble whatsoever when it lands on the B5 power chord riff right after the verse. But at that point B is the actual "I". I get confused, but that's OK, UG didn't exist at that point, so neither Townshend or I, were aware of just how totally bass ackwards the entire sordid mess was.

And don't get me started about all those sus4 > major chords. At least half of them were at the wrong scale degrees. Sheesh....

Well, I'm off to tell the World Jewish Population to cast down that nasty Freggish Scale, and rewrite their Liturgy. Should I suggest them praying to a different god while I'm at it? You know, one that has a halftone leading up......(wait for it)...toward "I"eaven..?

Quote by metalmetalhead
...[ ]...... But start with the chromatic scale..practice it and play it everywhere Its the only one worth learning.

The A minor chormatic scale goes like this

Dude, there is no such thing as a "minor chromatic scale". There can't be. THimk about it,.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jun 10, 2013,
#22
Quote by Captaincranky
Well that's only when you're going up. The Andalusian Cadence resolves downward, and in that direction has a semitone leading across the entire II > I chords.

What I get the biggest kick out of, is that a good many hit records have been made employing Phrygian motifs, Andalusian Cadences, double harmonic major, whatever you want to call it.


Andalusian cadence is i VII VI V. It's a half cadence, not an authentic cadence. The scale is phrygian relative to the V, but plain old natural and harmonic/melodic minor relative to the tonic. No reason to get modal about it.

It's just a diatonic chord sequence ending on a dominant. Nothing unusual in the least.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jun 10, 2013,
#23
Quote by cdgraves
Andalusian cadence is i VII VI V. It's a half cadence, not an authentic cadence. The scale is phrygian relative to the V, but plain old natural and harmonic/melodic minor relative to the tonic. No reason to get modal about it.

It's just a diatonic chord sequence ending on a dominant. Nothing unusual in the least.
Unless you reference it to m, "I, IV, V, I".

If we assume that E Phrygian Dominant contains the note G#, (and it does), then you can resolve the Andalusian Cadence downward on a 1/2 step, and back to Am on a half step leading tone as well.

Whether or not it's a full or half cadence doesn't matter. it does act as modal during the descending tetrachord, and as a standard minor going back to "i".

Which is why I really don't understand all the nonsense about "how awkward the 2 step resolution back to the tonic "i"" comes into play, because it isn't there.

Now, why don't you straighten "metalmetalhead" out, because he thinks the chromatic scale is minor. That's going to take a bit more work.
#24
Quote by Captaincranky

Now, why don't you straighten "metalmetalhead" out, because he thinks the chromatic scale is minor. That's going to take a bit more work.


Oh come on. ITs major AND minor. mostly minor tho. because all the notes are next to each other like the half tone scale.
#25
Quote by metalmetalhead
Oh come on. ITs major AND minor. mostly minor tho. because all the notes are next to each other like the half tone scale.


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Last edited by Jehannum at Jun 11, 2013,
#26
Quote by dumbface12
Sorry when I created this sentence I totally forgot about the world of rock/pop/country/etc. and forgot that most of those solos/melodies are diatonic.


Most metal ones are too, unless you're referring to some gypsy jazz type thing.
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#27
Quote by Captaincranky
Unless you reference it to m, "I, IV, V, I".

If we assume that E Phrygian Dominant contains the note G#, (and it does), then you can resolve the Andalusian Cadence downward on a 1/2 step, and back to Am on a half step leading tone as well.

Whether or not it's a full or half cadence doesn't matter. it does act as modal during the descending tetrachord, and as a standard minor going back to "i".

Which is why I really don't understand all the nonsense about "how awkward the 2 step resolution back to the tonic "i"" comes into play, because it isn't there.

Now, why don't you straighten "metalmetalhead" out, because he thinks the chromatic scale is minor. That's going to take a bit more work.


Still unclear how this differs in any way from using 7b9 arpeggio over the V, or why it needs a fancier name.
#28
Quote by cdgraves
Still unclear how this differs in any way from using 7b9 arpeggio over the V, or why it needs a fancier name.
Do you have any objection to a "fancier name", other than that fact it wouldn't boor the crap out of everybody the way, "7b9 arpeggio over the V", surely does?

Quote by metalmetalhead
Oh come on. ITs major AND minor. mostly minor tho. because all the notes are next to each other like the half tone scale.
I'm surprised they still let me post in this forum, since I know next to nothing about musical theory.

Now I know why. It's because of members such as yourself who come along and actually remove musical knowledge from it. In other words, after you make a post such as this, we all know less about theory than we did before we read it.

And it seems we'll never get that time or knowledge back.....it's like suffering amnesia from a traumatic event. Maybe someday we'll recover, but who can really know what the future holds.....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jun 12, 2013,
#29
Quote by metalmetalhead
Oh come on. ITs major AND minor. mostly minor tho. because all the notes are next to each other like the half tone scale.


#30
Literally the only thing about "phrygian dominant" is raising the leading tone in a minor key on the dominant. No need to theorize further.
#31
Quote by Captaincranky


I'm surprised they still let me post in this forum, since I know next to nothing about musical theory.

Now I know why. It's because of members such as yourself who come along and actually remove musical knowledge from it. In other words, after you make a post such as this, we all know less about theory than we did before we read it.

And it seems we'll never get that time or knowledge back.....it's like suffering amnesia from a traumatic event. Maybe someday we'll recover, but who can really know what the future holds.....


You know less? Less? you mean you unlearned knowledge? eat more greens then.

Oh yea what I said really turned the world upside down did'nt it? I imagine right about now your pulling your hair out just because of it. I think you need to start back at the basics and work on the "fundamentals". Time lost? knowledge lost? how silly and stupid. Cranky your a captain of empathy.

I'm still stuck on the HALF-TONE SCALE OF E minor. The hardest scale on earth. please elaborate for us caption cranky. But don't get your panties in a wade....cranky.