Page 1 of 5
#1
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2013/06/nsa_domestic_surveillance_american_voters_trust_the_government_to_fight.html

I understand that there are/have been threads related to this. But this one is specifically about whether you think it's perfectly fine for the government to be doing this. And if you honestly agree with this article.
Please call me Rainer, was 16 and empty minded when I made my profile.

Sometimes I talk to myself too...but never on the internet.
#2
I find Obama's blatant hypocrisy more offensive than anything.
Quote by jakesmellspoo
ooh look at me i'm ERIKLENSHERR and i work at fancy pants desk jobs and wear ties and ply barely legal girls with weed and booze i'm such a classy motherfucker.
#4
All this is old news, why are you mad about it now? Nobody wanted to complain when the Patriot Act was initiated - because they were invading our privacy in order to protect us from 'terrorists'.

But now, people are mad at Obama for invading your privacy. It was okay then, but not okay now; right?
Treble>Epiphone Prophecy EX - MXR micro Amp - MXR Blue Box - MXR Fullbore - MXR Noise Clamp - Vox AD30VT
Bass>Ibanez BTB505 - MXR Blowtorch - MXR D.I. - Peavey MaxBass 700 - Peavey TVX410
#5
Quote by macashmack
Barry O is an authoritarian.


for what it's worth, this kind of stuff isn't unprecedented from a president. many of them, including some we now put on our dollar bills, frequently ignored congress and did whatever they pleased.
#7
Quote by Vypor
All this is old news, why are you mad about it now? Nobody wanted to complain when the Patriot Act was initiated - because they were invading our privacy in order to protect us from 'terrorists'.

But now, people are mad at Obama for invading your privacy. It was okay then, but not okay now; right?


There has always been oppositions to these invasions of privacy. This is bigger because people finally realise the extent of the invasion. It also doesn't stop anyone. With a few Tor services all your communication is secret. No agency can stop that, so why the need to monitor everything.
#8
Quote by Eastwinn
for what it's worth, this kind of stuff isn't unprecedented from a president. many of them, including some we now put on our dollar bills, frequently ignored congress and did whatever they pleased.


That's true to an extent, but they didn't lie about. That's the difference here.

But anyways. This is NOT okay.

It wasn't okay when the PATRIOT Act was first passed and it isn't okay now, and never will be.

I'm with this guy 100%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0HDxoTmQe4
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
#9
Quote by Vypor
All this is old news, why are you mad about it now? Nobody wanted to complain when the Patriot Act was initiated - because they were invading our privacy in order to protect us from 'terrorists'.

But now, people are mad at Obama for invading your privacy. It was okay then, but not okay now; right?

That's not true, the man who broke this story, Glenn Greenwald, was also one of the Bush administration's harshest critics.
Quote by jakesmellspoo
ooh look at me i'm ERIKLENSHERR and i work at fancy pants desk jobs and wear ties and ply barely legal girls with weed and booze i'm such a classy motherfucker.
#10
Tomorrow will take us away
Far from home
No one will ever know our names
But the bards' songs will remain
Tomorrow will take it away
The fear of today
It will be gone
Due to our magic songs

ALL HAIL CELESTIA
#11
This shouldn't be a pro/anti Obama or a Rep/Dem discussion for this, I don't know why people are turning it into that.

This is a matter of personal privacy, regardless of what they use the information for, there's no reason for them to be able to see my phone records or anything I do on my computer without good reason.

If I'm suspected of sex trafficking or baby snatching or something, then sure, get a warrant, search my stuff. But as a citizen with not even so much as a speeding ticket on my record, I am not okay with them having access to such information. It's not a matter to me if they actually read it or not, the fact that they can is bothersome enough.

When it comes right down to it, I don't trust that there aren't NSA agents who are bored and just reading random people's texts and e-mails just for a laugh.
#12
Quote by ErikLensherr
That's not true, the man who broke this story, Glenn Greenwald, was also one of the Bush administration's harshest critics.


Maybe my original post was a little short sighted .

I did heavily oppose the Patriot Act, but when I would bring the issue up, most people just kind of shrugged their shoulders like it was okay. The logic of most in my situation was that if I had a problem with The Patriot Act then I was conspiracy theorist.

It is irritating to see some of the same people on Facebook and on this website that are now 'up in arms' about it - but didn't give a bother then.
Treble>Epiphone Prophecy EX - MXR micro Amp - MXR Blue Box - MXR Fullbore - MXR Noise Clamp - Vox AD30VT
Bass>Ibanez BTB505 - MXR Blowtorch - MXR D.I. - Peavey MaxBass 700 - Peavey TVX410
#13
I'm not sure why a country formed by rebels even has a government that wants to invade our privacy in the first place.
Tomorrow will take us away
Far from home
No one will ever know our names
But the bards' songs will remain
Tomorrow will take it away
The fear of today
It will be gone
Due to our magic songs

ALL HAIL CELESTIA
#14
Quote by Vypor
Maybe my original post was a little short sighted .

I did heavily oppose the Patriot Act, but when I would bring the issue up, most people just kind of shrugged their shoulders like it was okay. The logic of most in my situation was that if I had a problem with The Patriot Act then I was conspiracy theorist.

It is irritating to see some of the same people on Facebook and on this website that are now 'up in arms' about it - but didn't give a bother then.

They're just looking for any cudgel to bash Obama with, probably.

And there's probably some people here who were up in arms when it was Bush but won't care now that it's Obama.

Partisanship, amirite.
Quote by jakesmellspoo
ooh look at me i'm ERIKLENSHERR and i work at fancy pants desk jobs and wear ties and ply barely legal girls with weed and booze i'm such a classy motherfucker.
#15
Quote by jjfeu662
I'm not sure why a country formed by rebels even has a government that wants to invade our privacy in the first place.

A lot changes in 230 (approx.) years.
#16
Quote by Vypor
All this is old news, why are you mad about it now? Nobody wanted to complain when the Patriot Act was initiated - because they were invading our privacy in order to protect us from 'terrorists'.

But now, people are mad at Obama for invading your privacy. It was okay then, but not okay now; right?

Pretty much.
Quote by Fat Lard
Why would you spend tens of thousands of dollars to learn about a language you already speak? It was over before it even started dude

Quote by captainsnazz
brot pls
#17
Quote by macashmack
A lot changes in 230 (approx.) years.

but apparently not the second amendment, which IIRC was put in there to allow the ordinary citizens to protect the country from tyranny.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#18
Quote by Lemoninfluence
but apparently not the second amendment, which IIRC was put in there to allow the ordinary citizens to protect the country from tyranny.

To protect themselves from tyranny, and these kinds of Obama things surely don't make them stop believing that.
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#19
Quote by Lemoninfluence
but apparently not the second amendment, which IIRC was put in there to allow the ordinary citizens to protect the country from tyranny.

So should we allow the government to spy on us AND take our guns away?
I'm half playing devil's bro here.
#20
Quote by macashmack
So should we allow the government to spy on us AND take our guns away?
I'm half playing devil's bro here.


And that brings us back to the billboard I posted earlier in this thread.
Tomorrow will take us away
Far from home
No one will ever know our names
But the bards' songs will remain
Tomorrow will take it away
The fear of today
It will be gone
Due to our magic songs

ALL HAIL CELESTIA
#21
Lets be honest though, a government as resourceful as the US is bound to be watching everything you do regardless of whether or not they tell you. I don't agree with it, but I do understand the irrational thinking that has this in action. And its gonna be pretty hard to get caught with something unless you're doing something stupid enough to make you stand out among the billions of other items running through its software. This is 2013, there is no real privacy anymore.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
i love me some bunnys



--> --> --> -->

Anybody up for a WookieCore Band? You let me know.

Watch me as i Rock on...
#22
I'm American, and I'm not ok with it and never was. Our government gets away with a lot of shit they shouldn't, on both foreign and domestic issues.
#23
Quote by macashmack
So should we allow the government to spy on us AND take our guns away?
I'm half playing devil's bro here.

If you're going to rely on a constitutional right to own arms to protect against tyranny, then protect against tyranny.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#24
on one hand i'm thinking "ehhh i'd rather they didn't," but on the other i realize it's necessary to do the job they claim to be doing.
Quote by archerygenious
Jesus Christ since when is the Pit a ****ing courtroom...

Like melodic, black, death, symphonic, and/or avant-garde metal? Want to collaborate? Message me!
#25
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
on one hand i'm thinking "ehhh i'd rather they didn't," but on the other i realize it's necessary to do the job they claim to be doing.

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1fv4r6/i_believe_the_government_should_be_allowed_to/caeb3pl

Although I suppose with all that oversight, there's no way the US could start to go down that route. I mean, it's not like there's ever been an instance of rounding people up with a certain political opinions or locking people up for years without trial.

And definitely not within living memory.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#26
Quote by Lemoninfluence
If you're going to rely on a constitutional right to own arms to protect against tyranny, then protect against tyranny.

I'm sorry, I can't say that I follow.
#27
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/11/just-asking/306288/

Are some things still worth dying for? Is the American idea* one such thing? Are you up for a thought experiment? What if we chose to regard the 2,973 innocents killed in the atrocities of 9/11 not as victims but as democratic martyrs, “sacrifices on the altar of freedom”?* In other words, what if we decided that a certain baseline vulnerability to terrorism is part of the price of the American idea? And, thus, that ours is a generation of Americans called to make great sacrifices in order to preserve our democratic way of life—sacrifices not just of our soldiers and money but of our personal safety and comfort?

In still other words, what if we chose to accept the fact that every few years, despite all reasonable precautions, some hundreds or thousands of us may die in the sort of ghastly terrorist attack that a democratic republic cannot 100-percent protect itself from without subverting the very principles that make it worth protecting?

Is this thought experiment monstrous? Would it be monstrous to refer to the 40,000-plus domestic highway deaths we accept each year because the mobility and autonomy of the car are evidently worth that high price? Is monstrousness why no serious public figure now will speak of the delusory trade-off of liberty for safety that Ben Franklin warned about more than 200 years ago? What exactly has changed between Franklin’s time and ours? Why now can we not have a serious national conversation about sacrifice, the inevitability of sacrifice—either of (a) some portion of safety or (b) some portion of the rights and protections that make the American idea so incalculably precious?

In the absence of such a conversation, can we trust our elected leaders to value and protect the American idea as they act to secure the homeland? What are the effects on the American idea of Guantánamo, Abu Ghraib, PATRIOT Acts I and II, warrantless surveillance, Executive Order 13233, corporate contractors performing military functions, the Military Commissions Act, NSPD 51, etc., etc.? Assume for a moment that some of these measures really have helped make our persons and property safer—are they worth it? Where and when was the public debate on whether they’re worth it? Was there no such debate because we’re not capable of having or demanding one? Why not? Have we actually become so selfish and scared that we don’t even want to consider whether some things trump safety? What kind of future does that augur?
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#28
Quote by macashmack
I'm sorry, I can't say that I follow.

The argument that a lot of pro-gun people use is that the 2nd amendment entitles them to own firearms in order to discourage and fight back against a tyrannical force, whether that's foreign or domestic. It's so fundamental that they're willing to forego the increased risk of mass murders in order to keep their freedom.

Yet here we have a government that's spying on its citizens (and others) on an unprecedented scale and with very little oversight. Any time anyone tries to hold the relevant people to account, they're met with the 'get out of jail free card' that is the 'state secret' privilege in order to avoid having their actions scrutinised and potentially declared unconstitutional.

And somehow people are fine with that.

If you're going to have the 2nd amendment, use it for its intended purpose.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#29
Quote by Lemoninfluence
The argument that a lot of pro-gun people use is that the 2nd amendment entitles them to own firearms in order to discourage and fight back against a tyrannical force, whether that's foreign or domestic. It's so fundamental that they're willing to forego the increased risk of mass murders in order to keep their freedom.

Yet here we have a government that's spying on its citizens (and others) on an unprecedented scale and with very little oversight. Any time anyone tries to hold the relevant people to account, they're met with the 'get out of jail free card' that is the 'state secret' privilege in order to avoid having their actions scrutinised and potentially declared unconstitutional.

And somehow people are fine with that.

If you're going to have the 2nd amendment, use it for its intended purpose.


We're not at that point yet. Close, but not yet. If things keep going the way they are now (probably will) then the next 10 years or so are going to be pretty damn bad for everyone.
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
#30


That's what's going to happen soon.
Tomorrow will take us away
Far from home
No one will ever know our names
But the bards' songs will remain
Tomorrow will take it away
The fear of today
It will be gone
Due to our magic songs

ALL HAIL CELESTIA
#31
I fear the day we have a revolution. Their fear of the common people overtaking their cushy, privileged, and rich lives would make them use force completely unnecessary, and if we do succeed in overthrowing the gov't, we'd then turn on each other thanks to the massive divide our country has due to the party system and religion
#32
Quote by HardRock369
I fear the day we have a revolution. Their fear of the common people overtaking their cushy, privileged, and rich lives would make them use force completely unnecessary, and if we do succeed in overthrowing the gov't, we'd then turn on each other thanks to the massive divide our country has due to the party system and religion


There will never be a revolution, western people are far too apathetic for that.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#33
Quote by HardRock369
I fear the day we have a revolution. Their fear of the common people overtaking their cushy, privileged, and rich lives would make them use force completely unnecessary, and if we do succeed in overthrowing the gov't, we'd then turn on each other thanks to the massive divide our country has due to the party system and religion


My view is that if it ever comes to that point, everyone loses. There will be no coming back from that.

So, we end up tearing everything down and starting over again. I honestly think at this point that is the only way to solve the problem.
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
#34
Quote by stonyman65
My view is that if it ever comes to that point, everyone loses. There will be no coming back from that.

So, we end up tearing everything down and starting over again. I honestly think at this point that is the only way to solve the problem.


I agree, we can have all the AR-15's we want, the gov't still has tanks, gunships, and (god forbid) nukes. Plus it'll be the perfect time for our enemies to present themselves and attack us outright.

The problem is getting those in power to relinquish their power long enough to make substantial changes to the system, and that's much easier said than done.
#35
I've reported this thread for dangerous thoughts.
Quote by jakesmellspoo
ooh look at me i'm ERIKLENSHERR and i work at fancy pants desk jobs and wear ties and ply barely legal girls with weed and booze i'm such a classy motherfucker.
#37
Quote by HardRock369
I agree, we can have all the AR-15's we want, the gov't still has tanks, gunships, and (god forbid) nukes. Plus it'll be the perfect time for our enemies to present themselves and attack us outright.

The problem is getting those in power to relinquish their power long enough to make substantial changes to the system, and that's much easier said than done.


That's my point exactly.

The only kinda good thing about this is that you have to assume a large number of those within the military and the police would outright refuse to do anything against their own countrymen. There will always be those that blindly follow, but I would like to think that the large majority (meaning enough to where they can't effectively do anything) would just desert their post and do the right thing, not what they were ordered to do.
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
#38
Quote by stonyman65
That's my point exactly.

The only kinda good thing about this is that you have to assume a large number of those within the military and the police would outright refuse to do anything against their own countrymen. There will always be those that blindly follow, but I would like to think that the large majority (meaning enough to where they can't effectively do anything) would just desert their post and do the right thing, not what they were ordered to do.


I would truly hope so. But corruption runs deep, you never know what people are capable of when their backs are put against the wall. Hopefully it'll never come to this, but I feel until this country starts unifying itself we're going to keep slowly spiraling towards a dark end.
#39
Quote by Vypor
All this is old news, why are you mad about it now? Nobody wanted to complain when the Patriot Act was initiated - because they were invading our privacy in order to protect us from 'terrorists'.

But now, people are mad at Obama for invading your privacy. It was okay then, but not okay now; right?


Nobody complained about the Patriot Act? Where in blue **** have you been all these years?
#40
Quote by Lemoninfluence
The argument that a lot of pro-gun people use is that the 2nd amendment entitles them to own firearms in order to discourage and fight back against a tyrannical force, whether that's foreign or domestic. It's so fundamental that they're willing to forego the increased risk of mass murders in order to keep their freedom.

Yet here we have a government that's spying on its citizens (and others) on an unprecedented scale and with very little oversight. Any time anyone tries to hold the relevant people to account, they're met with the 'get out of jail free card' that is the 'state secret' privilege in order to avoid having their actions scrutinised and potentially declared unconstitutional.

And somehow people are fine with that.

If you're going to have the 2nd amendment, use it for its intended purpose.

Critical mistake you're making: the rights listed in the Constitution aren't guaranteed by the Constitution, just affirmed. The right to bear arms is already everyone's inherently, in countries where people aren't able to, the government is taking that liberty away from them.

But I agree with you otherwise, the complacency people are showing towards this makes me incredibly depressed.


Quote by CoreysMonster

I still like cho0onger more than the 2 of you

Quote by OneHappyCamper
joke's on you, i actually fuck my cat
Page 1 of 5