#1
I find that when I practice to a metronome it forces me to be locked into the groove and play on the obvious beats. I want to spice things up and "get away from the groove" somewhat. I want to create those cool flashy guitar runs that come up in unexpected beats and just sound kind of unexpected. This is what I hear my favorite guitar players do...and then they come back in the groove afterwards.

I have been trying to practice ideas away from the metronome and then try to fit it in somewhere with the metronome and my other ideas.

Is this called anything specific by the way? I remember watching a video, Groove Workshop, by Victor Wooten and in one part of the video he had a metronome playing and then it went off and he started just playing anything "like playing batshit crazy" and then trying to land on the groove again.
#2
You might want to try honing your inner clock first.... by trying to stay on the beat... just like Guthrie does during the drum solo in this tune...

... because Marco Minnemann manipulates time like crazy during the drum solo.... but it's Guthrie and Bryan holding it all down cuz their timing is absolute...

5:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEVc5cg7Lu0
#3
I know the video you're talking about ad I think you're mixing up "time" with "groove" here. Wooten's exercise wasn't really about the groove, just about staying on time.

Anyway, just listen to some jazz and funk and get used to it. To me, it's all about feeling the groove. I actually was in a little argument a while ago who didn't understand how Funk works and he insisted that a couple of beats I had him play felt very "off" to him while it was perfectly for me.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
#5
Isn't it just called syncopation?
If you can't play syncopated rhythms to a straight metronome there's something strange going on there :P
#6
I am getting confused now lol. In the video is he going out of time or is he still in time? He taps his foot to a 4/4 pulse but then plays random stuff against it...is what he is playing still in time?
Last edited by Unreal T at Jun 11, 2013,
#7
Quote by Unreal T
I am getting confused now lol. In the video is he going out of time or is he still in time? He taps his foot to a 4/4 pulse but then plays random stuff against it...is what he is playing still in time?


Yeah, just off the main beats - syncopated - I presume.
#8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HIY_IPIvCI

At 2:35

Here is a similar video. He talks about playing AGAINST the time. He taps his foot to a 4/4 pulse again and just plays what sounds so bizarre again. Can what he is playing still be notated in 4/4 time and is it in time?

If what he is playing is out of time then what is the point of tapping your foot as he is saying?
#9
The wooten video you're talking about is him referencing you "internal clock" in that as a musician, you should be able to get to the point where you're not longer counting rhythms but rather just feeling the music.
What he does is set a 16 er 32 bar "beat" where the drums do a hit on 1 of the first bar. His concept is that you can play whatever you want in whatever "time" you want for as long as you want but eventually you will feel when 1 is supposed to be after a certain time, not necessarily counting time and playing licks.
What he plays in that video... Some of it is groove. Some of it is literally BS and he would admit it because thats what gets the point across. He's just trying to say, if you're feeling the groove, you can walk away from the bass, go make a cup of tea and come back and still feel where the beginning of the groove is. Dig?

Now for what YOU can do as you're asking in the OP:
Still play with a metronome. But don't have it click on 1, 2, 3, and 4. Hopefully you have a metronome which you can turn off and accented first beat, otherwise this makes it really strange..
But practice with the metronome only clicking on 2 and 4. Then only clicking on 1, OR 2, OR 3, OR 4. Then try displacing the beat, have the metronome click on the "and"'s of all the beats. Just the and of 2 and 4. Things like that. That'll get your brain thinking in terms of different accented beats while still strengthening your concept of time.
Quote by Banjocal
sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
#10
le video

At 2:35

Here is a similar video. He talks about playing AGAINST the time. He taps his foot to a 4/4 pulse again and just plays what sounds so bizarre again. Can what he is playing still be notated in 4/4 time and is it in time?

If what he is playing is out of time then what is the point of tapping your foot as he is saying?
Notating rhythms is not the point of the exercise. He chooses strange words to say it but basically he's saying the same thing that Wooten is saying.

If you can keep an internal time that is not swayed by any outside force, you can play WHATEVER you want over the beat and it'll sound "right" because you'll, in essence, have the power to go in and out of the time.
He's also talking in the sense of latin music where almost everything is a syncopated rhythm and beats which are normally accented in western music are non-existent.
Quote by Banjocal
sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
#12
What are you trying to say, mdc?
Quote by Banjocal
sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
#14
This is a great thread! Lots of awesome information flying around.

Quote by King Of Suede
Now for what YOU can do as you're asking in the OP:
Still play with a metronome. But don't have it click on 1, 2, 3, and 4. Hopefully you have a metronome which you can turn off and accented first beat, otherwise this makes it really strange..
But practice with the metronome only clicking on 2 and 4. Then only clicking on 1, OR 2, OR 3, OR 4. Then try displacing the beat, have the metronome click on the "and"'s of all the beats. Just the and of 2 and 4. Things like that. That'll get your brain thinking in terms of different accented beats while still strengthening your concept of time.

This is excellent advice! This type of exercise is really helpful.

Quote by Unreal T
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HIY_IPIvCI

At 2:35

Here is a similar video. He talks about playing AGAINST the time. He taps his foot to a 4/4 pulse again and just plays what sounds so bizarre again. Can what he is playing still be notated in 4/4 time and is it in time?

If what he is playing is out of time then what is the point of tapping your foot as he is saying?

What he's playing can absolutely be notated in 4/4. The bulk of the "bizarre" stuff is just heavy syncopation and triplets. He is not playing "out of time", he is just playing in a way that doesn't accent the "usual" parts of the measure. He's exploring the rhythmic depths of 4/4. (This type of thing might make more sense to you if you hear it with a groove behind it.)

Also, as a side note, at the end of the video, when he's tapping his foot, RIGHT AFTER shitting on people (including the host) for not being able to do it, he speeds up. A lot. And he keeps missing the beat with his foot. What a dick. Gotta love Al, though.

Now, to answer your question my way, there's a ton of interesting shit you can do rhythmically! Here are a few concepts to get you started:

-Artificial groupings (or "tuplets") divide the beat asymmetrically. The most commonly heard artificial grouping is the triplet, (3 attacks to a beat) which long, long ago became a standard sound in western music. However, the beat can be divided however you want! The next most common artificial groupings are probably 5 and 7. After that it gets pretty wacky (the next true artificial grouping is 11). If you're a Zappa fan, he loved to write this shit (see: "The Black Page"). They can be a little hard to wrap your head around at first, but the concept is so simple that it's more a matter of tearing yourself away from your instincts than learning something really difficult.

-Rhythmic displacement involves playing a rhythm, then playing the same rhythm (or a very similar one) starting in a different spot in the measure. A great example of this can be found in Hendrix's "Power of Love" (aka Power of Soul) from Band of Gypsys (the main riff, but they only do the displacement between the verse and chorus and at the very end).

-Odd phrase groupings can help make a generic line much more interesting. This concept involves playing straight-ahead rhythms like continuous 8th or 16th notes, but phrasing them in such a way that doesn't accent the normal parts of the measure. An example would be playing straight 8th notes over a tune, but grouping your melodic ideas into let's say 3s instead of the standard 4s. When you accent that first note of the 3 note group, it'll put your accents (over 1 measure) on 1, & of 2, and 4 instead of just 1 and 3, which is what you would get if you played standard 4 note groups. Of course, you can use other numbers besides 3! In terms of guitarists, John Scofield is an absolute master of this.

-Polyrhythms can be fun and sound cool, but they're easy to overuse (see: Pat Metheny). The concept is to essentially have two different time feels going at once that eventually sync up when the rhythm "turns around". An extremely basic example of this is if you were playing straight dotted half notes over a 4/4 groove.

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Enjoy!
#15
Quote by mattrusso



What he's playing can absolutely be notated in 4/4. The bulk of the "bizarre" stuff is just heavy syncopation and triplets. He is not playing "out of time", he is just playing in a way that doesn't accent the "usual" parts of the measure. He's exploring the rhythmic depths of 4/4. (This type of thing might make more sense to you if you hear it with a groove behind it.)




This is exactly what I wanted to hear. Because I was getting confused as to what he was really doing. It makes more sense that it could be notated in 4/4 because if it can and it sounds so bizarre then like he said you can open up a new realm of ideas and rhythms.

He says playing "against the time" confused me because it sounded as though he meant to play totally out of time stuff not in 4/4 while tapping to a 4/4 pulse ( and jump in and out of time, keeping track of where it was with his foot) and I thought maybe that's how he gets the bizarre effect. But that method seems just wrong...

But yeah, it makes more sense of what you said about heavy syncopation and odd note groupings...Al should of just said that!
Last edited by Unreal T at Jun 12, 2013,
#16
Quote by mattrusso
-Artificial groupings (or "tuplets") divide the beat asymmetrically. The most commonly heard artificial grouping is the triplet, (3 attacks to a beat) which long, long ago became a standard sound in western music. However, the beat can be divided however you want! The next most common artificial groupings are probably 5 and 7. After that it gets pretty wacky (the next true artificial grouping is 11). If you're a Zappa fan, he loved to write this shit (see: "The Black Page"). They can be a little hard to wrap your head around at first, but the concept is so simple that it's more a matter of tearing yourself away from your instincts than learning something really difficult.


-Odd phrase groupings can help make a generic line much more interesting. This concept involves playing straight-ahead rhythms like continuous 8th or 16th notes, but phrasing them in such a way that doesn't accent the normal parts of the measure. An example would be playing straight 8th notes over a tune, but grouping your melodic ideas into let's say 3s instead of the standard 4s. When you accent that first note of the 3 note group, it'll put your accents (over 1 measure) on 1, & of 2, and 4 instead of just 1 and 3, which is what you would get if you played standard 4 note groups. Of course, you can use other numbers besides 3! In terms of guitarists, John Scofield is an absolute master of this.

Very relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVCTJpHyeXE
#17
Play over a jam track(slow one to start). Get your foot tapping to the beat.

1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and.


A lot of times you will start your runs on one of the "number" beats. This is fine but expected. If you listen to a lot of jazz guys and fusion dudes you will notice they will mix in runs that start on the "and".

Its all about being aware of the pulse of the song. It gets so much deeper then what I described but starting there did me good and I think it could help you.
#18
Now I know why my guitar playing always sucked. I just was not thinking about time...I have a lot to work on now. It is just all about T-I-M-E!!!!