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#1
What I'm trying to ask is, are amps built to be able to handle the max volume, or would max volume blow the speaker? My dad says it can't, and it only goes that loud so that if you plug bigger speakers in that could handle those settings, you can go louder. Is he lying so I'll stay quiet?
#2
There is a quick point of diminishing returns as it relates to amps and speakers. You can only power so many speakers before you'd start blowing internal components of the amp. Plus the fact that the more speakers you have the more your power is spread out. Max volume on most amps will only blow the speaker if the speaker's watts are a fair bit lower than the amps watts but not all manufacturers rate their kits the same so it is somewhat of a moving target.

That is my opinion anyway.


Welcome to GGnA
#3
Thanks for the help, I appreciate you taking your time to teach me. If I may ask, my amp is a tube amp, has a 1x12 speaker, 60w, and on the back it has a 1/4 jack that says 30.9v RMS, 16OHMs. Any chance you could explain what that means? Pretty please? I'm really interested
#4
What amp is it?

If I had to guess I'd say the jack is there to power an external speaker cabinet (vs a Line Out OR Footswitch).

The 16 is there to tell you that you can power a cabinet (group of speakers) that equals 16 ohms.

RMS watts is what your amp is rated at (Root Mean Square). I wouldn't get too hung up on that. I'm not sure what the 30.9 RMS is as I would think your amp is a 60 watt amp (hence why I said not to worry about the RMS too much).

Most 4x12 speaker cabinets are 16 ohm by the way but not always. I could explain that a bit more if needed.

A 4x12 speaker cabinet will be a bit louder than your single speaker (you get an additional 3 dB every time you double your speakers). A 4x12 will push more air and feel louder that is for sure.

If that is what you are getting at.
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Jun 30, 2013,
#5
Actually I would love it if you could explain that a bit more. It's a peavey 60w vypyr. That's actually what I was hoping to do...I like using the amp as is when I'm home, but I'm starting to play with a band more and we're about ready to play shows, so I was hoping to be able to buy a 4x12 and use my amp as the head...would that be possible? I can l ook this up but what is ohms? Might be easier to understand if you culd tell me
#6
Yes I can help you a bit further but I'm about ready to pass out so maybe someone else can take over with the detail. Also, wikipedia is your friend on the details.

It just so happens I have a Vypyr 60

On the Vypyr (also true for most other combos) if you plug in an external speaker cabinet the internal speaker is disconnected automatically. For some stupid reason though I thought the Vypyr 60 had an 8 ohm speaker out ??

Anyway, assuming it is 16 that means you can plug in a speaker cabinet that is rated at 16 ohms. Like I said, most 4x12s are 16 ohms so it is a matter of finding one that will work for you. Similarly with a 2x12.

Ohms is just a way to measure impedance. Impedance is basically the resistance that the magnets in the speakers produce. Think of them as 'pushing' against your amp. Specifically the output transformer in your amp. Ohms need to match (almost always) for a safe and happy relationship between the amp and the speakers it is driving.

Does that help?
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Jun 30, 2013,
#7
It does, and I genuinely appreciate your help. I'll take it to wikipedia from here, and if there's something I don't understand I'll ask around. Thanks man
#8
I just realized I may not have actually answered your question on ohms and 4x12s.

Here are the basics of how this works with speaker cabinets. Generally.

When you wire speakers together in Series you add them together. You add the Ohms and you add the Watts. Basically. There are lots of exceptions.

So an 8 ohm 60 watt speaker added to another 8 ohm 60 watt speaker in Series will give you 16 ohms and 120 watts.

Easy enough?

Speakers will always take the lowest wattage speaker when adding. For example:

An 8 ohm 60 watt speaker added with an 8 ohm 30 watt speaker in Series will give you 16 ohms but only 60 watts total (30w + 30w). See, it took the lower wattage of the two and added that.

Here is where it gets complicated.

Lets try this with a 4x12.

8 ohm + 8 ohm + 8 ohm + 8 ohm = 32 ohms. There are no guitar amps rated at 32 ohms. Guitar amps are usually 4, 8 , or 16. Some amps will give you the choice to select one of those with a switch or different 1/4 jacks.

One way to fix this problem with 4x12s is to introduce Parallel wiring.

With Parallel wiring you sill add the watts as normal but you 'divide down' the ohms (impedance). For example:

An 8 ohm 60 watt speaker added to another 8 ohm 60 watt speaker in Parallel gives you a 4 ohm load at 120 watts.

Lots of 4x12s are loaded in what we call Series/Parallel. One half of the cabs speakers are wired in Series and then each side is wired to the other side in Parallel. What happens when you do that is two fold. One, it gives you the option of a stereo cab or a mono cab (most people run guitars into mono cabs BTW). Second, it means that if the speaker used are all 8 ohms then you get an 8 ohm cab. If all the speakers are 16 ohm, the resulting total load is 16.

8+8 on one side = 16
8+8 on other side = 16
16 side wired in parallel to other 16 side brings you back down to 8



So in your case, you want a 16 ohm cab which means that if the cab is wired in Series/Parallel, it means that all the speakers inside are 16 ohms each. I wouldn't use a cab that is more than 120 watts total - or at least ask us if you find one that is larger than that.

Hope that wasn't too confusing. Took me awhile to get the hang of that. Someone else can probably help a bit further. Hopefully this will help you in finding a 4x12 cab. Don't cheap out. Cheap speakers and cheap wood/construction will turn your tone into crap. You might as well stick your combo up on a chair or something than to use a cheap 4x12 cab.
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Jun 30, 2013,
#9
An amplifier is usually rated at x number of continuous watts. So, just because it can produce 60 watts continuous doesn't mean that you want to try it. Running your amp at 10 all the time will mean the tubes won't as long. It also means that it'll be running hotter, which could make it prone to component failure.

The speaker? Well, it is likely rated to handle the full power of the amp. Can it be damaged? Under the right circumstances, some speakers can be damaged by lesser wattage than they're rated. Not sure I'd recommend running it full blast.
#10
Ok @311, I ran through all that and understood most of it, but I'm definitely gonna have to read it over a few more times, plus youre tired so go to sleep! Thank you I will have questions if you wanna answer them at a later date or anyone else does. That was very well explained though I appreciate it. I also read a few other things I found on google, and from what I understand as long as the watts of the speaker cab is greater than the head is outputting, youre ok there? This makes sense in my mind because if youre throwing a bunch of watts from the head into speakers that aren't able to handle that many watts, the speakers would blow? I also read that the ohms have to match exactly. Some people said you could connect an 8 ohm cab to a 16 ohm head and others said that's a bad idea.

@KG6 thanks for responding, I'm always grateful for free education! It makes sense that playing louder will burn out the tubes faster, but when you say component failure, I'm assuming you mean the circuitboard in the amp? A friend of mine helped me solder the input jack back into place on a small amp, so we took it apart, and in the end I found out it was only a circuit board with some wires going to a speaker, and some wood to hold it all together. So I'm assuming you mean all those little power inverters and w/e they are(that's the only name I remembered that my friend told me:P) would get too hot and fry? At what point do I have to worry about this. I'm pretty sure you can't touch the cage around the tubes while theyre hot anyway, because I read it would burn your skin right off, but if i touch the top of the amp, how hot would it have to be to be destroying the circuit board? Would it burn my hand, or would it just feel slightly hot or how would I know if I'm risking damaging it?
#11
Typically you don't want to crank an amp to 10 when the amp wattage is equal to the speaker wattage. Doesn't mean it will automatically blow out if you do, but there is a risk.

I don't really know why you would need to set the volume to max anyways lol. (Unless you're Cathbard)
This is the life we must choose.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm surprised that a big arm hasn't appeared out of the amp and slapped you across the face.
#12
Also, you said that running it at 10 will burn out the tubes faster. Idk if you've read the whole thread, but I'm looking to use my 60w tube amp as a head for a speaker cab that I have yet to even start looking for. If I do this, I have the same number of watts running out of the amp in a 4x12 as I do with the built in 1x12 right? So does this mean that I'm going to be splitting that power between those 4 speakers and burn out the tubes really fast just to get those speakers back up to the volume I need them to be? It's entirely possible this was already answered, but I'm tired and will reread this thread a bunch of times anyway, but again I really appreciate you guys helping me, warms my heart that musicians are so kind.
#13
Yet another question that just popped into my head...and maybe this is a stupid one but I dont know the answer...if you have 2 of the same speakers playing at the same volume, is the volume higher than if only one of those speakers was playing at that volume? What about 10 speakers playing at that volume?
#14
10 speakers will project that volume over a larger area due to the movement of more speaker cones moving more air.

1 speaker moves less air, so although it's at the same volume, that volume only carries over 1/10th of the area that 10 speakers would.

does that make sense?

it's not louder, it's just projected better over a larger area.
Last edited by gregs1020 at Jun 30, 2013,
#15
no. if you speaker setup can easily handle the wattage or perhaps up to 2x the wattage (for a fully overdriven amp) then your fine.

the amp itself however, is probably not meant to be run flat out all at 10. its like a car, can you red line your car for very long?

van halen did it but with a voltiac thingy that dropped the voltage going into his amp...so he limited it in a way so that the internaly components and transformers didnt fry. but the amp was still behaving similar to being "full throttle" so to speak.
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#16
Quote by bloodandempire
Yet another question that just popped into my head...and maybe this is a stupid one but I dont know the answer...if you have 2 of the same speakers playing at the same volume, is the volume higher than if only one of those speakers was playing at that volume? What about 10 speakers playing at that volume?

The power will be dispersed across the speakers, so it won't really be "louder." It will sound a lot more full when you add more speakers though.
This is the life we must choose.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm surprised that a big arm hasn't appeared out of the amp and slapped you across the face.
#17
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
I just realized I may not have actually answered your question on ohms and 4x12s.

Here are the basics of how this works with speaker cabinets. Generally.

When you wire speakers together in Series you add them together. You add the Ohms and you add the Watts. Basically. There are lots of exceptions.

So an 8 ohm 60 watt speaker added to another 8 ohm 60 watt speaker in Series will give you 16 ohms and 120 watts.

Easy enough?

Speakers will always take the lowest wattage speaker when adding. For example:

An 8 ohm 60 watt speaker added with an 8 ohm 30 watt speaker in Series will give you 16 ohms but only 60 watts total (30w + 30w). See, it took the lower wattage of the two and added that.


Followed that fine.


Here is where it gets complicated.

Lets try this with a 4x12.

8 ohm + 8 ohm + 8 ohm + 8 ohm = 32 ohms. There are no guitar amps rated at 32 ohms. Guitar amps are usually 4, 8 , or 16. Some amps will give you the choice to select one of those with a switch or different 1/4 jacks.


Understood most of this, but are all 12 inch speakers 8 ohms, or is that just a common one? Also this is a poorly phrased question I know, but will more ohms improve your sound, or impact your sound at all or is it strictly an electrical thing?


One way to fix this problem with 4x12s is to introduce Parallel wiring.

With Parallel wiring you sill add the watts as normal but you 'divide down' the ohms (impedance). For example:

An 8 ohm 60 watt speaker added to another 8 ohm 60 watt speaker in Parallel gives you a 4 ohm load at 120 watts.


I'm not quite sure what you meant here by divide down. If those were added in series, it would be 16 ohms, why is it 4 in parallel? What's the math that's happening here?


Lots of 4x12s are loaded in what we call Series/Parallel. One half of the cabs speakers are wired in Series and then each side is wired to the other side in Parallel.


Do you mean that if you have 4 speakers, speakers 1 and 2 are added in series, 3 and 4 are added in series, then those 2 series are added to each other in parallel? I was a little unclear on the wording there.


What happens when you do that is two fold. One, it gives you the option of a stereo cab or a mono cab (most people run guitars into mono cabs BTW).


Could you elaborate on this? I have no idea what that means.

I think if anyone can answer those questions I'll understand the rest of that post. As always, please and thank you. I do my best to try to help people in topics I know about as well, for instance I really don't know that much about the hardware aspect or the electrics and stuff, but as far as playing, I try to help people when I see threads asking about pinch harmonics or anything I do know about, so being on the other side, I just really appreciate it. Cheers.
#18
Quote by ikey_
no. if you speaker setup can easily handle the wattage or perhaps up to 2x the wattage (for a fully overdriven amp) then your fine.

the amp itself however, is probably not meant to be run flat out all at 10. its like a car, can you red line your car for very long?

van halen did it but with a voltiac thingy that dropped the voltage going into his amp...so he limited it in a way so that the internaly components and transformers didnt fry. but the amp was still behaving similar to being "full throttle" so to speak.


Thanks to the 3 of you who answered that question, it absolutely makes sense. In regards to this part that I quoted, when you say overdriven, do you mean when you add more distortion to it? For example if an amp has 2 channels, clean and overdriven, when you're in overdriven mode(I'm speaking strictly from my experience with a small solid state amp I have, my tube amp doesn't work like this), i.e. you press the button to switch and you now control the sound through 2 knobs called pre and post gain. Are you saying that when you switch to the overdrive mode, you put the amp through more electrically to get that sound?

P.S. someone should organize this info into an article or lesson so others can learn it too or something it's so fascinating.
#19
Yet another question...I hope others are learning too so I don't feel so selfish. Is connecting them + to + and - to - series and + to - parallel? That's what I took from that picture, is that correct? Also in regards to actually wiring that in real life, do you use the same wire? For instance the diagram has things going both in and out of the + and - terminals in each off the speakers...is that in one terminal with 2 wires plugged into it, or do you jsut strip a piece off the wire, bend it, and stick the whole thing in?
#20
I'm genuinely interested in this...I'm a computer science major in college right now, and I'm wondering if there would be anything I could minor in that would deal with this...what would that be called, and what kind of jobs do this stuff? Anyone know?
#22
Yeah, electrical engineering or electronic engineering. You should learn basic circuit theory in a Physics II class as well.

And to answer your question about the parallel wiring, it's 2 pieces of wire attached to the same node.
This is the life we must choose.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm surprised that a big arm hasn't appeared out of the amp and slapped you across the face.
#23
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
You can only power so many speakers before you'd start blowing internal components of the amp.


Huh? As long as the impedance is correct, the amp doesn't care how many speakers you hook up.

Quote by TremontiAddict
The power will be dispersed across the speakers, so it won't really be "louder." It will sound a lot more full when you add more speakers though.


Quote by gregs1020


it's not louder, it's just projected better over a larger area.


Nope, it's actually louder. It's a function of efficiency. Doubling the speaker cone area increases the Db by 6, while halving the power decreases the Db by 3, for a net increase of 3db. 10W through a full stack IS actually almost twice as loud as through a 1x12, assuming identical speakers.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#24
Quote by bloodandempire
I found on google, and from what I understand as long as the watts of the speaker cab is greater than the head is outputting, youre ok there? I also read that the ohms have to match exactly. Some people said you could connect an 8 ohm cab to a 16 ohm head and others said that's a bad idea.

Generally, if the watts of the speakers are equal to or greater than that of the head you are fine. There are exceptions. And again, we are talking about someone running an amp full bore at max volume for extended periods of time. Most people wouldn't do this because it probably wouldn't sound good. I usually tell people they should have 125% of watts available in their cab to what the head has to be safe.

Yes, you should always match ohms when connecting a tube amp to guitar speakers. Again, there are exceptions. The only time I would not follow that rule is if I was doing something on purpose and I had checked with the manufacturer first. Some amps can handle a mismatch, most can't. Solid State amps operate differently. If you had to mismatch, I would say it is better to have the ohms of the speakers higher than the amp and not the other way around.


Quote by bloodandempire
@KG6 .... when you say component failure, I'm assuming you mean the circuitboard in the amp? I'm pretty sure you can't touch the cage around the tubes while theyre hot anyway, because I read it would burn your skin right off, but if i touch the top of the amp, how hot would it have to be to be destroying the circuit board? Would it burn my hand, or would it just feel slightly hot or how would I know if I'm risking damaging it?

They get hot but not that hot. It wouldn't burn your skin right off but it might burn you. It would be like trying to unscrew a light bulb while it is turned on and lit. Component failures could be anything: tubes, resistors, transformers, fuses, etc. But yeah, most items on a circuit board could be suspect to fail but there are fuses and screen grid resistors in place that will protect the rest of the board before things start melting. You should be able to touch the top of your amp without risk of burning yourself. If it is too hot to touch then there may be something wrong. If your power tubes ever get super super bright then shut off your amp and get help.


Quote by TremontiAddict
Typically you don't want to crank an amp to 10 when the amp wattage is equal to the speaker wattage. Doesn't mean it will automatically blow out if you do, but there is a risk.

I don't really know why you would need to set the volume to max anyways lol. (Unless you're Cathbard)

I don't think he wants to crank his amp - he is just trying to understand volume as it relates to speaker cabinets and whether or not a 4x12 speaker cabinet will be louder and better for gigging.

Answer again - it will be slightly louder technically but the main difference you will hear is the better projection, more bass, and more air being pushed as mentioned.


Quote by bloodandempire
So does this mean that I'm going to be splitting that power between those 4 speakers and burn out the tubes really fast just to get those speakers back up to the volume I need them to be?

You will be spreading the power yes but it won't burn tubes any faster assuming the Ohms (impedance) stays the same. The amp head (your Vypyr 60) won't know if there are 4 speakers or just one. All it feels is the impedance. If you go with a 4x12 cabinet then you can almost assume you will have more watts than 60 so technically you might be more safe than you are now.


Quote by bloodandempire
...if you have 2 of the same speakers playing at the same volume, is the volume higher than if only one of those speakers was playing at that volume? What about 10 speakers playing at that volume?

I think you mean if the volume on the amp is set the same are 2 speakers louder than 1? Like if you could A/B/Y between 2 cabs and everything else was equal etc? The volume technically increases 3 decibels every time you double the speakers (double the surface area of the speaker cones actually). That said, you would be hard pressed to hear a 3 dB jump. 6 dB jump? Maybe. Again, when people say that 4x12s are louder they are typically referring to the additional air being pushed, projection, and bass response as mentioned.

Edit: Listen to Arby's explanation above. I think he has that down pat.


Quote by ikey_
van halen did it but with a voltiac thingy that dropped the voltage going into his amp...so he limited it in a way so that the internaly components and transformers didnt fry. but the amp was still behaving similar to being "full throttle" so to speak.

It was called a Variac BTW It did lower the voltage but it wasn't to save components that I remember. What I had always read was that he blew through tubes like he blew through coke He was trying to create a certain amount of 'sag' or crunch by recreating what happens in an electrical brown out. You know what a black out is right? A brown out means the electricity is still there but at a lower level. Hence 'Brown Sound'.


Quote by bloodandempire
Understood most of this, but are all 12 inch speakers 8 ohms, or is that just a common one? Also this is a poorly phrased question I know, but will more ohms improve your sound, or impact your sound at all or is it strictly an electrical thing?

12 inch guitar speakers usually come in 8 or 16 ohm variants and sometimes 4 ohm.

I often use 8 ohm when describing Series vs Parallel because there are no such things as 2 ohm or 32 ohm guitar speakers.

You could make an argument that 16 ohms is best but for this purpose it is just an electrical thing.


Quote by bloodandempire
I'm not quite sure what you meant here by divide down. If those were added in series, it would be 16 ohms, why is it 4 in parallel? What's the math that's happening here?

The math is shown on that diagram I posted. Parallel typically adds an extra bit of protection due to redundancy. In a series wired cab if one speaker blows then all the speakers blow and your amp is left with no load which is a real bad thing. At least with parallel wiring in a 4x12 cab if one speaker blows you still have the other half of the cab going.

Again, think of impedance as magnets pushing against each other. Have you ever pushed a magnet across the table with another magnet? It is similar to that. 16 ohms is less resistant than 4 ohms. The smaller the number in this case the more resistance you have. But again, this stuff is mostly inconsequential as it relates to guitar tone.


Quote by bloodandempire
Do you mean that if you have 4 speakers, speakers 1 and 2 are added in series, 3 and 4 are added in series, then those 2 series are added to each other in parallel? I was a little unclear on the wording there.

Yes that is what I mean.


Quote by bloodandempire
Could you elaborate on this? I have no idea what that means.

Mono means all 4 speakers are working together with one jack, one connection, one sound. Typical.

Stereo means there is a pair of 2 speakers on each side that act as separate pairs, separate jacks, separate connections, separate sounds. This is sometimes used when you have 2 amp heads and you want to combine the tone of both into one cabinet.

Also, as of note. If you daisy chain 2 speaker cabinets together, on a tube amp, then you divide the ohms down not add them up. So if you hooked up one 16 ohms 4x12 to another 16 ohm 4x12 cab you now have an 8 ohm load total. That is just the way output transformers work in tube amps. Didn't mean to add confusion.


Quote by bloodandempire
I think if anyone can answer those questions I'll understand the rest of that post. As always, please and thank you. I do my best to try to help people in topics I know about as well, for instance I really don't know that much about the hardware aspect or the electrics and stuff, but as far as playing, I try to help people when I see threads asking about pinch harmonics or anything I do know about, so being on the other side, I just really appreciate it. Cheers.

Again, welcome aboard. The subforum 'Guitar Technique' is teeming with people that need help


Quote by bloodandempire
In regards to this part that I quoted, when you say overdriven, do you mean when you add more distortion to it?

He just means everything is running full bore. You typically have preamp 'drive', power amp 'drive', speaker 'drive' and then any pedals, effects or stompboxes that add 'drive'. Different guitar pickups can also add more 'drive' Each one of these elements can add distortion.


Quote by bloodandempire
Yet another question...I hope others are learning too so I don't feel so selfish. Is connecting them + to + and - to - series and + to - parallel? That's what I took from that picture, is that correct? Also in regards to actually wiring that in real life, do you use the same wire? For instance the diagram has things going both in and out of the + and - terminals in each off the speakers...is that in one terminal with 2 wires plugged into it, or do you jsut strip a piece off the wire, bend it, and stick the whole thing in?

Not sure if I understand exactly but I do have different diagrams and pictures. It is safe to say that lots of speakers have those dual terminals like that. Use separate wire.


Quote by bloodandempire
I'm genuinely interested in this...I'm a computer science major in college right now, and I'm wondering if there would be anything I could minor in that would deal with this...what would that be called, and what kind of jobs do this stuff? Anyone know?

EE


*I'm not an EE nor an amp tech so you may need someone smarter in here to validate what I've said.
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Jul 1, 2013,
#25
Quote by Arby911
Huh? As long as the impedance is correct, the amp doesn't care how many speakers you hook up.



^ what I meant was that if you made a custom 10x12 speaker cabinet with 10 - 12" guitar speakers in it you have a diminished return. Assuming those speakers are 16 ohms each and you are running it into a tube amp then you have either a 160 ohm cab if wired in Series or a .03 ohm cab if wired in parallel (or something like that).

Thanks for joining in though Arby - you are def smarter at this stuff than I.
#26
This is all starting to make alot of sense. The additional speakers part was explained well by everyone. Im still wondering about whether the ohms and the watts affect your tone at all or just elctrical specs for what speakers you can plug in.

Did some more research, and i wanted to try using a multimeter to test the ohms of some speakers i have(strictly as a learning experience. I read that the reading will always be lower than the actual ohms, but thatthats normal so you should just round up to the 4/8/16. Is this accurate?

In regards to that math, lets say all speakers are 16 ohms. So wed be looking at the bottom equation on the diagram. If the two are wired in series then in parallel, you have 2 sets at 32 ohms prior to wiring them in parallel. Im wondering why in the diagram, its 1/(1/16+1/16) + 1/(1/16+1/16) instead instead of 1/(1/32) + 1/(1/32) I understand how adding and dividing by fractions and everythimg work...i get all that part of the math...i dont get why yoy chose those numbers for the equation based on how many ohms the speakers were

Also would i wabt an open back cab or closed? What things go into this decision? If it matters at all my guitar is a schecter hellraiser with emg 81/85s. I know its not a great guitar...i like ot and its what i could afford.

How do you pronounce impedance i don't wanna look stupid. Is it Im-pe-dense(kinda like impotent) or Im-pee-dentz?

Also you know how the vypyr is set up with stompboxes...if i were to add an overdrive pedal and use the tubescreamer, would that be like double as much distortion? I'm not gonna just wondering. Also would an overdrive pedal work better than the tubescreamer built in? I'm asking because I can't play at levels loud enough to be heard with drums with the tubescreamer on, or when I'm not playing I get ridiculous feedback even if I put my hand over the strings. I have a noise gate, but even that doesn't help unless I put the threshhold at a level that sucks all my tone out.
Last edited by bloodandempire at Jul 1, 2013,
#27
One more...why is this 15w head $700?

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Orange-Amplifiers-OR-Series-OR15H-15W-Compact-Tube-Guitar-Amp-Head-107766172-i2440669.gc

I'm not looking to buy it or anything I just searched amp head in the gc search...aren't most 15w cmobo amps like $30? Why is just the head 700?

Also, 311, you know my current setup, can you recommend a cab atleast as a place to start looking? I'm just so overwhelmed by the number of brands and everything..I know it'll partially be personal preference for the sound, but how much do you think I should spend(you said don't skimp)? If possible try to give me an honest answer..I'm fine with waiting and saving up more to buy it if it's the smart decision.
Last edited by bloodandempire at Jul 1, 2013,
#28
Quote by bloodandempire
Thanks for the help, I appreciate you taking your time to teach me. If I may ask, my amp is a tube amp, has a 1x12 speaker, 60w, and on the back it has a 1/4 jack that says 30.9v RMS, 16OHMs. Any chance you could explain what that means? Pretty please? I'm really interested
Wattage = V squared / Resistance. So (30.9 * 30.9)/16 = 59.7 watts. Seeing as how you have a 60watt amp it appears that you get 60 watts at 16ohms. The RMS term is used to describe a standard of calculating power closer to the actual power output, and has been used in stereo equipment as a defacto standard of rating power for decent gear. As opposed to peak or peak to peak power often stated by the cheap junk stereos (ghetto blasters, compact stereos, and car radios).

I came in late in this thread and haven't read it all but adding speakers changes a lot of things. You have speaker efficiency and dispersion of sound that takes affect. These variables aren't always known. For example if speaker efficiency drops off at higher sound levels then add more speakers could improve efficiency and give more output. But that output could also be spread over a wider area thereby reducing the volume at any single location. Since people don't sit with their ear in the speaker cone, the apparent volume can go up with more speakers depending on listener location.

Speakers can easily get blown up by amps at max volume because when the amp starts clipping the power can go above rated power. Cheap SS amps are notorious for blowing speakers because they start badly clipping after running out of clean headroom. A higher powered quality amp is less likely to blow speakers than a cheaper low powered amp because of the tendency for the user to want to see how loud it gets and the harsh clipping blows the speaker.
#29
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
^ what I meant was that if you made a custom 10x12 speaker cabinet with 10 - 12" guitar speakers in it you have a diminished return. Assuming those speakers are 16 ohms each and you are running it into a tube amp then you have either a 160 ohm cab if wired in Series or a .03 ohm cab if wired in parallel (or something like that).

Thanks for joining in though Arby - you are def smarter at this stuff than I.


Meh, I'm middling fair in comparison to several others here, but thanks.

Yeah, anything over 8x12 runs into phase cancellation issues that limit the additional gains (and the math involved to calculate it gets truly stupid...).
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#30
Quote by bloodandempire
One more...why is this 15w head $700?

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Orange-Amplifiers-OR-Series-OR15H-15W-Compact-Tube-Guitar-Amp-Head-107766172-i2440669.gc

I'm not looking to buy it or anything I just searched amp head in the gc search...aren't most 15w cmobo amps like $30? Why is just the head 700?

Wattage and speakers are not the only factors that are taken into account when an amp is priced. The quality of the parts used, the amount of time, the difficulty of the build, all of these things will come into play when an amp builder decides to sell an amp.

Think about it this way: Every amp company has it's own thing going. Whether it's Fender, Mesa/Boogie, Randall, Vox, Orange, Marshall etc, they each have their own thing that they do very well. For something like a Mesa, you're paying for a lot of time and complicated circuits that go into the amp (plus a certain amount of brand mojo). They're able to charge what they charge because they get a certain sound by doing things their way.

That Orange head uses a lot more expensive components than your average 15w solid state combo, so that goes into the price. But Orange also does their particular sound really, really well, so they get to charge a premium for that, too (plus a certain amount of brand mojo).
Quote by patriotplayer90
Lolz that guy is a noob.

Egnater
Leave it on the press, Depress Depress Taboot Taboot.
#31
Quote by Jhachey22
Wattage and speakers are not the only factors that are taken into account when an amp is priced. The quality of the parts used, the amount of time, the difficulty of the build, all of these things will come into play when an amp builder decides to sell an amp.

Think about it this way: Every amp company has it's own thing going. Whether it's Fender, Mesa/Boogie, Randall, Vox, Orange, Marshall etc, they each have their own thing that they do very well. For something like a Mesa, you're paying for a lot of time and complicated circuits that go into the amp (plus a certain amount of brand mojo). They're able to charge what they charge because they get a certain sound by doing things their way.

That Orange head uses a lot more expensive components than your average 15w solid state combo, so that goes into the price. But Orange also does their particular sound really, really well, so they get to charge a premium for that, too (plus a certain amount of brand mojo).



Another reason why some amps are quite pricey as compared to others, is the fact that they're "hand built." Most production amps, meaning those that are a standard model in large quantities, are built by machine, or the parts are stuffed by hand and then wave soldered at the same time. Hand built amps are built one-at-a-time, by some poor soul sitting at a bench with a soldering iron. Mesa, Rivera and many others use this technique to build their amps, which means more labor, hopefully a better product and a higher price. As you also mentioned, they'll often use higher quality components. Agreed... you also pay for the name on the front of the amp.
#32
Quote by bloodandempire
This is all starting to make alot of sense. The additional speakers part was explained well by everyone. Im still wondering about whether the ohms and the watts affect your tone at all or just elctrical specs for what speakers you can plug in.

For the most part, varying ohms is not going to affect your tone. There are so many other factors that come into play ohms is the last thing you need to worry about. (for educational purposes, some would claim that 16 ohms is best because it utilizes all of the windings of the output transformer - but I digress).

Now watts - can affect your tone. The more watts you have the more headroom you have. Period. The less watts you have the more distortion/breakup you will have. Period. That assumes we are not dealing with clean channel but distortion channels on amps. For metal, this may seem counter intuitive. You would think that headroom is bad and distortion is good. I'm not sure I can get into more detail on this here but for 'most' metal applications you want headroom and higher watts. In other words, playing modern metal on a 5 or 15 watt amp is difficult. Triplets, palm mutes, tapping, chugging, trills, etc do not sound very clear on a low watt amp. That is where headroom comes in. That is the best I can explain it.

This is true for both amps and speakers. A lower wattage speaker will breakup and distort sooner than a higher wattage one. Lower wattage speakers are generally good for classic rock and country for example. The differences though with speakers is not as noticeable as it is will amps.

I'm sure there will be some that disagree with me on this.

Here is a good read:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1571081


Quote by bloodandempire
Did some more research, and i wanted to try using a multimeter to test the ohms of some speakers i have(strictly as a learning experience. I read that the reading will always be lower than the actual ohms, but thatthats normal so you should just round up to the 4/8/16. Is this accurate?

Yes, you can do that and round up. Not perfect but good enough, especially if you are not sure what the overall load of a cab is.


Quote by bloodandempire
In regards to that math, lets say all speakers are 16 ohms. So wed be looking at the bottom equation on the diagram. If the two are wired in series then in parallel, you have 2 sets at 32 ohms prior to wiring them in parallel. Im wondering why in the diagram, its 1/(1/16+1/16) + 1/(1/16+1/16) instead instead of 1/(1/32) + 1/(1/32) I understand how adding and dividing by fractions and everythimg work...i get all that part of the math...i dont get why yoy chose those numbers for the equation based on how many ohms the speakers were

Yes, the bottom row of numbers would be used for a cab with 16 ohm speakers. I believe those were written that way to make it easy on the eyes and show the logic. I didn't write those out, I got it from IbanezPsycho.


Quote by bloodandempire
Also would i wabt an open back cab or closed? What things go into this decision? If it matters at all my guitar is a schecter hellraiser with emg 81/85s. I know its not a great guitar...i like ot and its what i could afford.

Generally if you play metal or even jazz or rock a closed back cab will give you more punch and bass response. They will also potentially sound a bit boxy and focused. Open back cabs are more airy, bouncy, life like, etc etc and are good for blues, classic rock, country, etc.

Most 4x12s are closed back as it is because there is a lot of open space in them and if the back was removed you would have a wolly unfocused bassy mess.


Quote by bloodandempire
How do you pronounce impedance i don't wanna look stupid. Is it Im-pe-dense(kinda like impotent) or Im-pee-dentz?

You got it right.

Im-pee-dance


Quote by bloodandempire
Also you know how the vypyr is set up with stompboxes...if i were to add an overdrive pedal and use the tubescreamer, would that be like double as much distortion? I'm not gonna just wondering. Also would an overdrive pedal work better than the tubescreamer built in? I'm asking because I can't play at levels loud enough to be heard with drums with the tubescreamer on, or when I'm not playing I get ridiculous feedback even if I put my hand over the strings. I have a noise gate, but even that doesn't help unless I put the threshhold at a level that sucks all my tone out.

Not sure I'm following all of this but would be happy to explore it more with you. I don't use any stompboxes, effects, or extra dirt on my Vypyr. The Dual Rec and Diezel models with the preamp gain between 12-2pm is usually more than enough for me and I like tight brootal riffing. Have you experimented with the stompbox effect settings for Tubescreamer etc?

Generally, with overdrives you want to boost the signal hitting the amp without adding lots of distortion. For that reason, a lot of people but the Gain on '0' and the Level on '10'. I have several boost pedals that I use with my Splawn and I run them this way - namely a Bad Monkey OD (tubescreamer clone). I've also run this pedal in front of the Vypyr in the way I just described and it worked great. Try that.
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Jul 1, 2013,
#33
Quote by bloodandempire
One more...why is this 15w head $700?

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Orange-Amplifiers-OR-Series-OR15H-15W-Compact-Tube-Guitar-Amp-Head-107766172-i2440669.gc

I'm not looking to buy it or anything I just searched amp head in the gc search...aren't most 15w cmobo amps like $30? Why is just the head 700?

Also, 311, you know my current setup, can you recommend a cab atleast as a place to start looking? I'm just so overwhelmed by the number of brands and everything..I know it'll partially be personal preference for the sound, but how much do you think I should spend(you said don't skimp)? If possible try to give me an honest answer..I'm fine with waiting and saving up more to buy it if it's the smart decision.

There are 15 watt amps that cost $2,000 just like there are 200 watt amps that cost $150. Watts have no correlation to price as I'm sure you've figured out by now. People buy amps that have a wattage that meets their musical criteria and then pay based on their budget etc.

I would say any 4x12 cab that is less than $300 is probably not worth your time. Again, there are exceptions. It mostly depends on what speakers are in it. Avatar is a great brand and you can custom build your own cab. I had a 2x12 closed back cab made for me by them and it was $425. Their 4x12s are probably starting at $700 minimum.

Tell me where you live roughly and more about the type of music you play and I'll see if I can find you a good example. I need your exact budget too. For now, stick your amp up on a chair or crate and see if you can't get more projection out of it.
#34
Quote by KG6_Steven
Hand built amps are built one-at-a-time, by some poor soul sitting at a bench with a soldering iron. Mesa, Rivera and many others use this technique

I doubt Craig at CECAmps and Scott at Splawn amps consider themselves poor souls. Also, I didn't know Mesa Boogie amps were built one at a time.
#35
I live in north jersey for craigslist, just west of new york city, but I don't wanna go into the city.

As far as music, it's hard to say, i'd say mostly more of a metal person, pantera, metallica, periphery, architects, thrice, bmth's first album is one I enjoy playing mostly for the pinch harmonics but I too digress. Stuff like that, but at the same time I'm getting more into sweeping and have been working tirelessly on canon rock now that I can do most of it.

When you say breakup and distort what do you mean...just the sound or is something happening with the amp?

I haven't played with the settings, and I honestly forgot that they had settings...you have to push one of the buttons I think, but yeah I'll look into that. The only thing is when I need pinch harmonics really...idk what the word I'm looking for here is...more distorted? Wouldn't putting the gain down hurt that? I'll try it out when I get home I guess

For a budget I'd really like to stay under 1000, if you found one around 700 that you consider good that would be cool.

Random question...I wouldn't wanna carry 2 giant boxes around since the vypyr 60 ways like 50lbs to begin with...would it be feasible to take the amp head out and build a casing for it? Would I need to use a certain type of wood?
#36
I'll try to answer your other questions separately but here are some ideas. You've got a pretty big budget for a cab. Emperor, Port City, Mesa, Splawn, Orange, etc all make above average speaker cabinet. I personally think Splawn makes some of the best cabinets (and amps) for the money spent. Avatar also makes really good cabinets for the price. I think they start out at $700 ish for a new one. Splawns are not too much more than that.

http://www.avatarspeakers.com/
http://splawnguitars.com/cabs.htm


Used, you have lots of options:

http://maine.craigslist.org/msg/3864688214.html Mesa 4x12 cab
http://maine.craigslist.org/msg/3885183229.html Peavey 5150 cab
http://maine.craigslist.org/msg/3899553991.html Marshall 1960 cab

actually I just realized these are in Maine. I typed in New Brunswick.

http://cnj.craigslist.org/msg/3849176130.html Marshall 1960A
http://cnj.craigslist.org/msg/3895979027.html Peavey 6505 cab
http://cnj.craigslist.org/msg/3892141458.html Marshall 1960AV
http://cnj.craigslist.org/msg/3848312212.html 1960
http://cnj.craigslist.org/msg/3870610977.html no name
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/msg/3846555563.html Mesa
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/msg/3896252096.html Empty cab put in your own speakers

Also, something should be said for the current Vypyr tube speakers they use. They are designed for the amp and are very transparent. That means they do not color the tone that the amp modeling is giving you. If you use different speakers your tone may change. I'm guessing you will be fine though. There is a nice thread over on the peavey.com forums about speakers in the tube Vypyr.


Again - speakers are probably the most important factor. If you are not sure what is in there then ask us.

As far as converting your Vypyr 60 combo into a head - it wouldn't be that hard. Are you good with wood working and dovetail joints, tolexing, etc? Wood to use would probably be birch or maybe pine. Most amp heads and cabs are ply based (layered) vs solid pieces of wood.

I might be able to point you to some more resources on this topic if you like.

You may want to just consider getting a Vypyr 120 head. More watts and no cutting. Offworld92 has one.


Breakup and distortion and overdriven can all be used to describe the same thing. It is the amps pur

It is a sound but it is also something that is happening with the amp. Different amps do it different ways. Most of my amp settings have the pregain at 2pm, bass at 3pm, mids and treb at 1pm, post volume at 11am and master volume at 12 noon. Again, no on board boosts or effects.

We like similar music.

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/311ZOSOVHJH/music/all/play983752
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Jul 1, 2013,
#37
thanks for taking the time to find those, ill check them out

So I have a speaker box here...not for a guitar, idk what it's for, just listening to music I guess...but I took the speakers out of it to see how they were set up and see how many ohms they were. They actually say theyre 4 ohms right on the back but it's good practice using a multimeter. So here's the thing.

There's 4 speakers total, but theyre in groups of 2...there's nothing connecting the 2 sides...each goes to a different terminal. so essentially I hve 2 sets of seperate speakers. Looking at just one of those sets, each of the two speakers has one set of wires going from the speaker to the terminal, and another set of wires going from each speaker to a sperate piece of plastic that has a terminal like thing on it, and the wires are soldered into it...but at first glance it just appears to be a piece of plastic. I took it apart and behind the piece of plastic is a spongy thing with some kind of metal disc on it that the wires touch. What's this for?

Also one of the speakers says its 700 watts and 4 ohms. It measured at a 2.3 so I guess taht's the normal lower than the actual thing. The other one isn't labeled. Everytrhing is soldered together though, and when I test the terminal with both speakers going to it, I also get a 2.3. Do you know how these are set up? I can take pictures or elaborate if necessary
#40
1.) Take a look at the Jack again. There is writing above the jack that says 'External Speaker 8 ohms'

That is the part that now confuses me. I've created a thread on this topic over on the peavey.com forums to try to get an answer. If it is 8 ohms, then you obviously need an 8 ohm cab and not a 16 ohm one.

2.) That cab your found looks pretty decent. WGS (Warehouse Guitar Speakers) makes pretty good clones of Celestion and Eminence speakers. Their Veteran 30 is a clone of the Vintage 30 for example. Not sure why they call them that though when they are 60 watt speakers. I think the magnet is 30 mm across or some shit. So....you need to confirm with that guy if they are actually 30 watts or Vet30s (which are 60). I guess in the grand scheme it doesn't matter since your amp is only 60 anyway. If they are 30 watt speaker in that cab then the resulting watts will be 120 (30 + 30 + 30 +30) - remember that rule?

The T-75s are known to be kind of fizzy from what I hear. I don't have direct experience with them. My take is that on a modeling amp you do not want low wattage speakers and you do not want fizzy speakers or speakers that add too much color to your tone as it may not sound at all like what the amp does with the stock speaker. The speaker in the Vypyr is pretty transparent which means it is not adding too much to what the amp is modeling already.

3.) I'm really not sure what to say about the rest of this 'box' you found. I don't have an answer. Because you can't use it with a guitar I find it kind of a waste of time. Like I said, a mulitmeter is not a perfect tool for measuring impedance (inductance I think actually) but a reading of 2.3 on a 4 ohm speaker does not surprise me.
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